Jehovah's Witnesses

he-man · Jan 8, 2012

3 Angels Messages said:
Again, it was already shown that 'mere existence before' is infinitely insufficient to the text/context and the simple reading, even from the greek literal translation [if one is so inclined], reveals that Jesus is the great I AM. Indeed, John in context, GOD [the FATHER] so loved the world that HE [the FATHER] gave the SON [who is also GOD, even according to the very same author, John]...
As for the others, there were quoted several from John 8 specifically.

21 Therefore here I am to make known this time to tell you by the hand of mightiness to know that the name is (the) self Existent [Jehovah]

Mal 3:1 is prophetic of the second coming of Christ, when he shall suddenly come to his temple:

Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

Hag 2:7 And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the LORD of hosts.

2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

1Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know Him that is true, and we are in Him that is true, also in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under, manifest it is that He is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto Him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Gareth · Jan 10, 2012

Further, in what way is the Son equal to the Father? Did not Jehovah say in Isaiah 43:10 that he was God and besides him there was no saviour? Jehovah provided the saviour in Jesus as the Gregorian pointed out in that because God loved the world of mankind so much he provided the means of salvation and redemption in His only begotton Son, the only one that God created personally. This action alone shows that Jesus is not equal to God because it involves death, a concept that is impossible for an immortal to have to go through because being immortal means one is free from death.

The only immortal god to die was Pan the god of music in Greek mythology. Did he really exist? Was he really immortal? Or was he just a myth?

jcrose · Jan 29, 2012

"from a real life, actual reasonable JW... does anyone have any civil questions about what we actually believe and/or why?"

Sure. JWs may have a few things right that the mainstream don't (hell and the condition of the dead), but not everythng like JW's so love to think. How do JW's justify replacement theology? In other words, why do you believe that the JW religion replaces the natural jews as the chosen people? It is clear that the Bible in the New Testament teaches that there will be a time when the natural Jews return to God. And gentiles believers are grafted in or back out to that original jewish part. What are we jws grafted into if they are no longer the chosen people? Also last I knew, you believe that the other sheep are the jws that will live eternally on earth, while the little flock goes to heaven. When actually the Bible teaches the opposite of what jws believe, the kingdome of priests is to reign on earth Rev 5:10 NAS and the great crowd is in heaven Rev 19:1 NAS. Jesus was clearly calling the jews "the little flock" and the "other sheep" are obviously the gentiles. It will help if you use a Bible that is unbiased word for word translation which is what the New American Standard Bible is. The writers of JW Bible were not scholars. But even using your Bible, i see no justification for the interpretation of these issues. It makes JWs feel all safe and secure to think that JW leaders hold all truth, but it is a false security. Base your security on the Bible and independent researdh not on JW "authority."

jackmt · Jan 30, 2012

Why don't the rest of you JWs identify yourselves as such as does woden?

gort · Jan 30, 2012

woden said:
Further, in what way is the Son equal to the Father? Did not Jehovah say in Isaiah 43:10 that he was God and besides him there was no saviour?

he said that in v.11 and you really should give careful thought to what God had to say in that none besides God can be saviour.

Jehovah provided the saviour in Jesus as the Gregorian pointed out in that because God loved the world of mankind so much he provided the means of salvation and redemption in His only begotton Son, the only one that God created personally. This action alone shows that Jesus is not equal to God because it involves death, a concept that is impossible for an immortal to have to go through because being immortal means one is free from death.

wait a sec, I thought God said besides him there is no saviour? But now there is another besides God who is saviour?? Even Michael the angel a saviour?

3 Angels Messages · Jun 11, 2012

3 Angels Messages · Oct 18, 2012

Jesus in the Book of Hebrews [written by Paul] is God, the Son, consider closely:

Notice that Paul sets Christ above prophets and above every angel in verses 1-7, but then He now directly equates Jesus to YHVH "LORD", by citing the OT passages and showing that they are speaking of Jesus.

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he [the Father] saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Notice that Paul directly cites Psalms 45:6 and 7, which declares "Father" [1st Person] speaking to the "Son" [2nd Person], being anointed by the "Holy Spirit" [oil of gladness, for oil is symbolic of the third Person]

Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

...but notice that Paul does not stop with those verses, but continues with "And" and then cites another OT passage in reference to Jesus, and notice what Jesus is specifically called, "Lord", but what passage is Paul citing? It is Psalms 102:25,26,27. Therefore, who is the "Lord" in those verses in Hebrew? It is "YHVH" [Psalms 102:12,22]. Jesus is YHVH, LORD, who is "the same" and does not change [Psalms 15:4; Malachi 3:6], for how can we be sure? See Paul again saying the exact same thing in Hebrews 13:8 - "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." [and if you notice the context of this verse, look a few verse previously to see Paul yet again citing the OT, text using LORD "YHVH".]

Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

Heb 1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

Heb 1:12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

3 Angels Messages · Feb 26, 2013

Question: Who is the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the Ending, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, the Author and Finisher?
See: http://www.christianforums.com/t7589311-27/#post59378993

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. Hebrews 12:2

Verily Jesus, is “the Author and Finisher” of our faith.

Also remember to see the past posts:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7589311-31/#post60724840

…

Question: Who is the Alpha and Omega from the Beginning?

Genesis 1:1 in the Hebrew reveals the 3 persons.

Please go to Genesis 1:1 with me since it is the very beginning of the Scriptures. It will set the stage and definition, for the entirety of the Bible, for it is the very first time the word is used.

There are multiples of 3 in this single text.

Here is that text, in Hebrew.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.Genesis 1:1

Genesis 1:1ראשׁית ברא אלהים את השׁמים ואת הארץ׃

אלהים H430

I will simply ask one question with two parts.

Is the Hebrew word for "God" in Genesis 1:1, in the Plural or Singular, and if Plural is it in the Dual Plural or True Plural [Triple or greater] forms?

Ask anyone that reads or speaks or studies Hebrew, and they will tell us, that it is written in the Hebrew True Plural [3 or greater] and not the Dual Plural.

בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ׃

בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית bə·rê·šîṯ in the beginning
בָּרָ֣א bā·rā created
אֱלֹהִ֑ים ’ĕ·lō·hîm God [true plural, 3 or more]
אֵ֥ת ’êṯ - (untranslated aleph, tav)
הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם haš·šā·ma·yim the heavens
וְאֵ֥ת wə·’êṯ - (untranslated vav, aleph, tav)
הָאָֽרֶץ׃ hā·’ā·reṣ the earth

אֵ aleph Aleph, first letter of Hebrew [Psalms 119:1]; The Alpha

ת tav Tav, last letter of Hebrew [Psalms 119:169]; The Omega

וְ vav Vav, sixth letter of Hebrew [Psalms 119:49]; 6 - man

This verifies who the Elohim is, the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, all of whom are witnessed in Genesis 1. The Hebrew letters, Aleph – Tav, are basically saying Alpha and Omega [first and last letters of Greek], the First and the Last [even as John, in the Greek so gives even in Revelation].

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1

The same was in the beginning with God. John 1:2

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:3

Forwards and backwards, positive and negative [forever sealed] reveal that Christ Jesus is God, the Creator. All things, even in the Jehovah’s Witness, Unitarian and Arian scriptures, for notice the very next verses and complete context:

[That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. John 1:9

He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. John 1:10

He came unto his own, and his own received him not. John 1:11

The very people He [Jesus, the True Light] took out for Himself as seen in the OT, a peculiar and chosen nation.

For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that [are] upon the face of the earth. Deuteronomy 7:6

It was He that came unto His own, and He was in the World, and yet they [most] rejected Him.

Heaven and Earth is connected by this Vav of the Aleph [Alpha] and Tav [Omega]:

And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it. Genesis 28:12

Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else. Isaiah 45:22

And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man. John 1:51

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me. John 12:32

Christ Jesus is the bridge, the Heavenly Ladder, which connects Heaven and Earth, for it was even He [Deity and humanity] which was suspended between Earth and Heaven upon the Cross, by the Nails [that which pierces]...

Aleph in the old pictogram Hebrew looks like the Ox-Head, and also carries the meaning of first, strength, mighty. Christ Jesus is the Mighty Sacrifice.

A website of note:
The Letter Aleph

Tav in the old pictogram Hebrew looks like a Cross, a stick vertical, combined with a stick horizontal, again an image of Heaven and Earth and not only man's relationship to God, but also man's relationship to man, and it also carries the meaning of the sign, the mark or covenant, of which Christ Jesus is again the Sign given.

A website of note:
The Letter Tav

And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof. Ezekiel 9:4

Vav in the old pictogram Hebrew looks like a nail, a peg, pin or hook in a sure place, used in Exodus 27:10-11, as a peg, pin, nail or hook on the Pillars of the Tabernacle upon which were hung the curtains [or veils of the Tabernacle, Christ Jesus hung upon the Cross, His flesh the veil [By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; [Hebrews 10:20]]], it may also be seen in use in Exodus 26:32,37, 27:10,11,17, 36:36,38, 38:10,11,12,17,19,28:

And I will fasten him [as] a nail in a sure place; and he shall be for a glorious throne to his father's house. Isaiah 22:23

A website of note:
The Letter Vav

Pictorgrams:
http://kingdaughter.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/hebrewpictographchart1.gif

The word את is used as a grammatical tool to identify the definite object of the verb, in other words, it is pointing to the active principle. Thus the active principle which Created the Heaven and the Earth in Genesis 1, is GOD [Elohim - multiplicity of persons and togetherness of purpose], but even specifically the Word, the First and the Last letter, the Alpha and Omega, the Mighty Sacrifice who would die upon the Cross, pierced for all, connecting Heaven and Earth, Deity and humanity, by Himself [the propitiation], Christ Jesus, the Son of God the Father, God manifest in the flesh.

he-man · Feb 27, 2013

3 Angels Messages said:
Question: Who is the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the Ending, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, the Author and Finisher?

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. Hebrews 12:2

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Act 13:30 But God raised him from the dead:

In Hebrew notice the seperation between the words אֱלֹהִים

De 6:4 Hear Israel, Yahweh Jehovah is one God אֱלֹ(nm. one, mono-; single)

אֱלֹהִים
בְּרֵאשִׁית, בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים, אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם, וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ.
But either way it is <אלוהים>nm. God, divinity
בראשית ברא אלוהים את השמים ואת הארץ

Ge 1:1 In the beginning God <אֱלֹ>formed the firmament and the land.

26 And God <אלוהים> commanded and caused to bring about man in his image, in likeness: to rule over the fish of the sea, and the fowl of the air, and to make the beast, and all the earth, and everything all reptiles all insects upon the earth.

עברית 101 KTAV Publishing House

SayaOtonashi · Feb 27, 2013

One thing that strikes me is that their aganist birthdays and gods makes no command there just pulling two verse out. God does not ay anything. Another is blood tranfusion. They say it's a sin yet science as shown that 50% of pregnant women will get blood tranfudion from the baby's placenta. As well as the mother breast feeding her own kid, transfusion her white blood cells. So if blood transfusion was a sin then the baby and the mother have sin. Also millions of kids have die because of the parents belifs. The church at first was fine with blood transfusion until a young girl died. Then the church starts to get away from blood transfusion. Yet they can allow parts of blood be used like the hemoglobin

3 Angels Messages · Feb 27, 2013

he-man said:
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Act 13:30 But God raised him from the dead:

In Hebrew notice the seperation between the words אֱלֹהִים

De 6:4 Hear Israel, Yahweh Jehovah is one God אֱלֹ(nm. one, mono-; single)

אֱלֹהִים
בְּרֵאשִׁית, בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים, אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם, וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ.
But either way it is <אלוהים>nm. God, divinity
בראשית ברא אלוהים את השמים ואת הארץ

Ge 1:1 In the beginning God <אֱלֹ>formed the firmament and the land.

26 And God <אלוהים> commanded and caused to bring about man in his image, in likeness: to rule over the fish of the sea, and the fowl of the air, and to make the beast, and all the earth, and everything all reptiles all insects upon the earth.

עברית 101 KTAV Publishing House

This has been given previously.

Speaking of Jesus in Hebrews Chapter 1, which fully declares Jesus as God, see previous posts on Hebrews 1:

Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Hebrews 1:3

Mankind is indeed made in that image, the image of God, even Jesus...

http://www.christianforums.com/t7589311-25/#post59334926

I cite:

"That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; Colossians 2:2

In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. Colossians 2:3

Question: Who raised Jesus from the Dead?:

GOD raised CHRIST JESUS, "The LORD our God [FATHER, SON and HOLY SPIRIT, 3 persons] [is] one [Unity in Purpose] LORD": Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. Colossians 2:12 and Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 1 Peter 1:21 and And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power. 1 Corinthians 6:14 and Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. Acts 2:24 and And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. Acts 3:15 and God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. Acts 13:33 and Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Hebrews 13:20

So JESUS [GOD the SON] did: Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. John 2:19 and No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. John 10:18

So GOD the FATHER did: Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places], Ephesians 1:20 and Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Romans 6:4 and Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead; ) Galatians 1:1 and And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. 1 Thessalonians 1:10

So GOD the HOLY SPIRIT did: But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Romans 8:11 and For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 1 Peter 3:18"

3 Angels Messages · Feb 27, 2013

he-man said:
...In Hebrew notice the seperation between the words אֱלֹהִים

De 6:4 Hear Israel, Yahweh Jehovah is one God אֱלֹ(nm. one, mono-; single)

he-man said:
אֱלֹהִים
בְּרֵאשִׁית, בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים, אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם, וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ.
But either way it is <אלוהים>nm. God, divinity
בראשית ברא אלוהים את השמים ואת הארץ ...

Christ Jesus, is truly LORD God, not the Father, neither the Holy Spirit, but the Son.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the nameofthe Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:Matthew 28:19

πορευθεντεςG4198 V-AOP-NPM ουνG3767 CONJ μαθητευσατεG3100 V-AAM-2P πανταG3956 A-APN ταG3588 T-APN εθνηG1484 N-APN βαπτιζοντεςG907 V-PAP-NPM αυτουςG846 P-APM ειςG1519 PREP τοG3588 T-ASN ονομαG3686 N-ASN τουG3588 T-GSM πατροςG3962 N-GSM καιG2532 CONJ τουG3588 T-GSM υιουG5207 N-GSM καιG2532 CONJ τουG3588 T-GSN αγιουG40 A-GSN πνευματοςG4151 N-GSN Matthew 28:19

"name" is singular. "the name", "the"[definite article, something specific, the name is the very Character of God, see Exodus 34:5-8] While the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost [Spirit] are plurality of persons. "the Father", "the Son" and "the Holy Ghost [Spirit]". "the" [tou] Definite articles along with "and"[kai].

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:Deuteronomy 6:4

Deuteronomy 6:4 שׁמעH8085 ישׂראלH3478 יהוהH3068 אלהינוH430 יהוהH3068 אחד׃H259

The word "one" is unity [like multiple persons of a single family, or team, or husband and wife in marriage, spearate beings, yet to be one in unity, togetherness]. The Hebrew is : 'Echad, - and is not the Hebrew yachid, nor bad.

When this is given again in the New Testament, quoted by Jesus, we see a Greek word which is helpful:

And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: Mark 12:29

Mark 12:29 οG3588 T-NSM δεG1161 CONJ ιησουςG2424 N-NSM απεκριθηG611 V-ADI-3S αυτωG846 P-DSM οτιG3754 CONJ πρωτηG4413 A-NSF-S πασωνG3956 A-GPF τωνG3588 T-GPF εντολωνG1785 N-GPF ακουεG191 V-PAM-2S ισραηλG2474 N-PRI κυριοςG2962 N-NSM οG3588 T-NSM θεοςG2316 N-NSM ημωνG1473 P-1GP κυριοςG2962 N-NSM ειςG1520 A-NSM εστινG1510 V-PAI-3S

Notice again the translation of the word from Hebrew [YHVH] to Greek [Kurios], and also of the word used for one[Hebrew, 'Echad] to one[Greek, eis].

This is the same way in which Marriage is given in Genesis, in the Gospels and by Paul, that there are 2 persons [male and female, and [3] God also] which come together in unity [togetherness], and this is how the word [one] is used in both the Hebrew and Greek:

Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. Genesis 2:24

Genesis 2:24 עלH5921 כןH3651 יעזבH5800 אישׁH376 אתH853 אביוH1 ואתH853 אמוH517 ודבקH1692 באשׁתוH802 והיוH1961 לבשׂרH1320 אחד׃H259

3 Angels Messages · Feb 27, 2013

See how that they[multiple] are to be one[togetherness, unity of all but person]?

And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?Matthew 19:5

Matthew 19:5 καιG2532 CONJ ειπενG3004 V-2AAI-3S ενεκενG1752 PREP τουτουG3778 D-GSN καταλειψειG2641 V-FAI-3S ανθρωποςG444 N-NSM τονG3588 T-ASM πατεραG3962 N-ASM καιG2532 CONJ τηνG3588 T-ASF μητεραG3384 N-ASF καιG2532 CONJ προσκολληθησεταιG4347 V-FPI-3S τηG3588 T-DSF γυναικιG1135 N-DSF αυτουG846 P-GSM καιG2532 CONJ εσονταιG1510 V-FDI-3P οιG3588 T-NPM δυοG1417 A-NUI ειςG1519 PREP σαρκαG4561 N-ASF μιανG1520 A-ASF

Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.Matthew 19:6

Matthew 19:6 ωστεG5620 CONJ ουκετιG3765 ADV-N εισινG1510 V-PAI-3P δυοG1417 A-NUI αλλαG235 CONJ σαρξG4561 N-NSF μιαG1520 A-NSF οG3739 R-ASN ουνG3767 CONJ οG3588 T-NSM θεοςG2316 N-NSM συνεζευξενG4801 V-AAI-3S ανθρωποςG444 N-NSM μηG3361 PRT-N χωριζετωG5563 V-PAM-3S

And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. Mark 10:8

Mark 10:8 καιG2532 CONJ εσονταιG1510 V-FDI-3P οιG3588 T-NPM δυοG1417 A-NUI ειςG1519 PREP σαρκαG4561 N-ASF μιανG1520 A-ASF ωστεG5620 CONJ ουκετιG3765 ADV-N εισινG1510 V-PAI-3P δυοG1417 A-NUI αλλαG235 CONJ μιαG1520 A-NSF σαρξG4561 N-NSF

What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. 1 Corinthians 6:16

1 Corinthians 6:16 ηG2228 PRT ουκG3756 PRT-N οιδατεG1492 V-RAI-2P οτιG3754 CONJ οG3588 T-NSM κολλωμενοςG2853 V-PPP-NSM τηG3588 T-DSF πορνηG4204 N-DSF ενG1520 A-NSN σωμαG4983 N-NSN εστινG1510 V-PAI-3S εσονταιG1510 V-FDI-3P γαρG1063 CONJ φησινG5346 V-PAI-3S οιG3588 T-NPM δυοG1417 A-NUI ειςG1519 PREP σαρκαG4561 N-ASF μιανG1520 A-ASF

For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. Ephesians 5:31

Ephesians 5:31 αντιG473 PREP τουτουG3778 D-GSN καταλειψειG2641 V-FAI-3S ανθρωποςG444 N-NSM τονG3588 T-ASM πατεραG3962 N-ASM αυτουG846 P-GSM καιG2532 CONJ τηνG3588 T-ASF μητεραG3384 N-ASF καιG2532 CONJ προσκολληθησεταιG4347 V-FPI-3S προςG4314 PREP τηνG3588 T-ASF γυναικαG1135 N-ASF αυτουG846 P-GSM καιG2532 CONJ εσονταιG1510 V-FDI-3P οιG3588 T-NPM δυοG1417 A-NUI ειςG1519 PREP σαρκαG4561 N-ASF μιανG1520 A-ASF

"in the name" ..... that name is "YHVH"[Jehovah]Exodus 6:3. A name they share, the character they share.

They are one in purpose, in mind, in character, but not in person. Consider that this is how Jesus Christ even spoke of Himself and the Father, along with Himself and the Disciples, and even with the disciples amongst themselves, togetherness in mind, in purpose, in harmony, but not in person:

I and [my] Father are one.John 10:30

John 10:30εγωG1473 P-1NS καιG2532 CONJ οG3588 T-NSM πατηρG3962 N-NSM ενG1520 A-NSN εσμενG1510 V-PAI-1P

And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are]. John 17:11

3 Angels Messages · Feb 27, 2013

John 17:11 καιG2532 CONJ ουκG3756 PRT-N ετιG2089 ADV ειμιG1510 V-PAI-1S ενG1722 PREP τωG3588 T-DSM κοσμωG2889 N-DSM καιG2532 CONJ ουτοιG3778 D-NPM ενG1722 PREP τωG3588 T-DSM κοσμωG2889 N-DSM εισινG1510 V-PAI-3P καιG2532 CONJ εγωG1473 P-1NS προςG4314 PREP σεG4771 P-2AS ερχομαιG2064 V-PNI-1S πατερG3962 N-VSM αγιεG40 A-VSM τηρησονG5083 V-AAM-2S αυτουςG846 P-APM ενG1722 PREP τωG3588 T-DSN ονοματιG3686 N-DSN σουG4771 P-2GS ουςG3739 R-APM δεδωκαςG1325 V-RAI-2S μοιG1473 P-1DS ιναG2443 CONJ ωσινG1510 V-PAS-3P ενG1520 A-NSN καθωςG2531 ADV ημειςG1473 P-1NP

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.John 17:21

John 17:21 ιναG2443 CONJ παντεςG3956 A-NPM ενG1520 A-NSN ωσινG1510 V-PAS-3P καθωςG2531 ADV συG4771 P-2NS πατερG3962 N-VSM ενG1722 PREP εμοιG1473 P-1DS καγωG2504 P-1NS-K ενG1722 PREP σοιG4771 P-2DS ιναG2443 CONJ καιG2532 CONJ αυτοιG846 P-NPM ενG1722 PREP ημινG1473 P-1DP ενG1520 A-NSN ωσινG1510 V-PAS-3P ιναG2443 CONJ οG3588 T-NSM κοσμοςG2889 N-NSM πιστευσηG4100 V-AAS-3S οτιG3754 CONJ συG4771 P-2NS μεG1473 P-1AS απεστειλαςG649 V-AAI-2S

And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:John 17:22

John 17:22 καιG2532 CONJ εγωG1473 P-1NS τηνG3588 T-ASF δοξανG1391 N-ASF ηνG3739 R-ASF δεδωκαςG1325 V-RAI-2S μοιG1473 P-1DS δεδωκαG1325 V-RAI-1S αυτοιςG846 P-DPM ιναG2443 CONJ ωσινG1510 V-PAS-3P ενG1520 A-NSN καθωςG2531 ADV ημειςG1473 P-1NP ενG1520 A-NSN εσμενG1510 V-PAI-1P

Notice, the scriptures in several places, speaks to this unity, this togetherness of multiplicity:

[Be] of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits. Romans 12:16

That ye may with one mind [and] one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.Romans 15:6

Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and [that] there be no divisions among you; but [that] ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 1 Corinthians 1:10

Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.2 Corinthians 13:11

Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel; Philippians 1:27

Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, [being] of one accord, of one mind.Philippians 2:2

I beseech Euodias, and beseech Syntyche, that they be of the same mind in the Lord. Philippians 4:2

Finally, [be ye] all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, [be] pitiful, [be] courteous: 1 Peter 3:8

It is written in Ezekiel: And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: Ezekiel 11:19

Ezekiel 11:19 ונתתיH5414 להם לבH3820 אחדH259 ורוחH7307 חדשׁהH2319 אתןH5414 בקרבכםH7130 והסרתיH5493 לבH3820 האבןH68 מבשׂרםH1320 ונתתיH5414 להם לבH3820 בשׂר׃H1320

Even satan's forces shall be thus joined together in such unity of purpose:

These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.Revelation 17:13

Revelation 17:13 ουτοιG3778 D-NPM μιανG1520 A-ASF γνωμηνG1106 N-ASF εχουσινG2192 V-PAI-3P καιG2532 CONJ τηνG3588 T-ASF δυναμινG1411 N-ASF καιG2532 CONJ τηνG3588 T-ASF εξουσιανG1849 N-ASF εαυτωνG1438 F-3GPM τωG3588 T-DSN θηριωG2342 N-DSN διαδιδωσουσινG1239 V-PAI-3P

The unity that exists between Christ and His disciples does not destroy the personality of either. They are one in purpose, in mind, in character, but not in person. It is thus that God and Christ are one. Ministry of Healing; page 422.1, by Ellen G White.

StormHawk · Feb 27, 2013

I was to see a JW version of "The book of Mormon"

3 Angels Messages · Feb 28, 2013

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. Daniel 12:1

When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Luke 13:25

See also Matthew 10:25, Hebrews 3:3,6 for "master of the House" and who it is... Jesus, God the Son.

Both verse are speaking of the close of probation for the whole world, after whih none more may be saved, but even as it was in the Days of Noe, the wicked knew it not until destruction came, and already the door was closed and they outside, mocking even unto the last moment, until the first drops fell... Noe was in that Ark 7 days sealed inside before one drop even came.

Jesus in the Book of Daniel - Jesus is Michael Archangel, God the Son, Uncreated Creator, having Eternal Life within Himself, unborrowed, underived, self-existant, the Great I AM:

JESUS In Book Of Daniel - The Biblical TRUTH

2ducklow · Mar 2, 2013

The Gregorian said:
Back in the day, there was an entire subsection for discussing JW beliefs/interpretations/viewpoints. With that assimilated into UT, I haven't seen much conversation to jump in on.

SO... from a real life, actual reasonable JW... does anyone have any civil questions about what we actually believe and/or why?

Keep in mind "I HERD YOU KILL BABIES AND DON'T BELIEEV IN JESUS!" ... is not a question. If it sounds completely dastardly and unreasonable... it's probably not based on reality and therefore isn't a rumor that should be perpetuated.

(Btw, the goal isn't to "proselytize" or "convert" anyone. Only to reduce the hatred out there and get people thinking for themselves rather than buying into propaganda.)

Thinking for themselves is something few do. And JW's are not high on the list of those that do. ONe has to buy 100 percent what KIngdom hall puts out to be a Jw. Most all other churches don't have that requirement.

2ducklow · Mar 2, 2013

3 Angels Messages said:
The SON, sits on the right hand of the FATHER. Even as the FATHER hath said unto the SON, "Thy Throne, O GOD, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom." [Psalms 45:6; Hebrews 1:8;p]

the verse says literally "thy Throne the God forever and ever:

there are different ways of translating that verse, plus the way the version you quoted it has it it has it as an exlmation, it has it having God exclam "O God!" So that cannot be a correct translation.

[Yu can find the 1993 edition on line here.http://obinfonet.ro/docs/exeg/exegres/metzger-alls.pdf

here's what metzger said in an earlier version of the same book

1.8 sou(2) {C}

"Although the reading αυτου, which has early and good support (p46, ,Aleph, B), may seem to be preferable because it differs from the reading of the Old Testament passage that is being quoted (Ps 45.7 [=LXX 44.7] (σου), to which, on this point of view, presumably the mass of New Testament witnesses have been assimilated, Thus, if one reads αυτου the words οθεος must be taken, not as a vocative2....but as the subject (or predicate nominative) 3

2."Thy throne, 0 God, is for ever and ever, and the scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom,"

3."God is thy throne (or, Thy throne is God) for ever and ever, and the scepter of righteousness is the scepter of his [i. e. God's] kingdom."

4. " 'Thy throne, 0 God. is for ever and ever,' and 'the scepter of righteousness is the scepter of his kingdom.' "

A Textual commentary on The Greek New Testament, Bruce Metzger, 1975, UBS, p 662-663.

It appears his 1975 version rubbed some shoulders the wrong way so he left out the possible translations part. # 3 is the correct translation because the oldest manuiscripts support

what they are saying is that manuscript evidence supports his kingdom not thy kingdom and thus if one goes with his kingdom one cannot use the articular nominative theos as a vocative, and it would have to read something like

# 3 above.

Jack Terrence · Mar 2, 2013

2ducklow said:
the verse says literally "thy Throne the God forever and ever:

There he goes again pretending that he knows Greek. The verse does NOT literally says the above. Here is what it literally says:

πρὸς δὲ τὸν υἱόν, Ὁ θρόνος σου, ὁ θεός, εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα τοῦ αἰῶνος, καὶ ἡ ῥάβδος τῆς εὐθύτητος ῥάβδος τῆς βασιλείας σου.

But to the Son he says, Your throne, the God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.

here's what metzger said in an earlier version of the same book

1.8 sou(2) {C}

"Although the reading αυτου, which has early and good support (p46, ,Aleph, B), may seem to be preferable because it differs from the reading of the Old Testament passage that is being quoted (Ps 45.7 [=LXX 44.7] (σου), to which, on this point of view, presumably the mass of New Testament witnesses have been assimilated, Thus, if one reads αυτου the words ο θεος must be taken, not as a vocative2....but as the subject (or predicate nominative) 3

Ducklow keeps on playing like he knows what he is talking about. Metzger said that if we read "autou," then the words ὁ θεός, must NOT be taken as a vocative. But the word used is "sou"

πρὸς δὲ τὸν υἱόν, Ὁ θρόνος σου, ὁ θεός, εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα τοῦ αἰῶνος, καὶ ἡ ῥάβδος τῆς εὐθύτητος ῥάβδος τῆς βασιλείας σου.

Therefore, the words ὁ θεός, are to be taken as a vocative and they convert to the address "O God." The Father is adressing the Son as God.

Furthermore, in verse 10 the Father addresses the Son calling Him "Lord" and attributes the creation to Him.

Two points abaout the word "Lord" in verse 10:

1. It is written in the vocative kurei:

καί, Σὺ κατ' ἀρχάς, κύριε, τὴν γῆν ἐθεμελίωσας, καὶ ἔργα τῶν χειρῶν σού εἰσιν οἱ οὐρανοί:

2. The apostle quoted from Psalm 102 which uses the name "YHWH." Therefore, the Father addressed the Son as YHWH!

Apokalypsi Dekaoktw · Mar 2, 2013

Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day. Deuteronomy 24:9

Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. Isaiah 6:10

And they, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear, (for they [are] a rebellious house,) yet shall know that there hath been a prophet among them. Ezekiel 2:5

And thou shalt speak my words unto them, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear: for they [are] most rebellious. Ezekiel 2:7

And go, get thee to them of the captivity, unto the children of thy people, and speak unto them, and tell them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear. Ezekiel 3:11

But when I speak with thee, I will open thy mouth, and thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; He that heareth, let him hear; and he that forbeareth, let him forbear: for they [are] a rebellious house. Ezekiel 3:27

Son of man, thou dwellest in the midst of a rebellious house, which have eyes to see, and see not; they have ears to hear, and hear not: for they [are] a rebellious house. Ezekiel 12:2

He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. Matthew 11:15

For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Matthew 13:15

But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. Matthew 13:15

Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. Mark 13:9

When shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. Mark 13:43

And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. Mark 4:9

If any man have ears to hear, let him hear. Mark 4:23

If any man have ears to hear, let him hear. Mark 7:16

Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember? Mark 8:18

And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. Luke 8:8

It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; [but] men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. Luke 13:45

Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: Acts 28:26

For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Acts 28:27

(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear

unto this day. Romans 11:8

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