Be in pain and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion

[zeke37]

The 144,000 of God's kingdom is symbolic number imagery in the most image intensive book in the bible. Reading it literally is just madness! Just as Hebrews used 3 fold repetition to indicate emphasis, like "Holy Holy Holy" in words, they sometimes included 3 fold multiplication to indicate something in numbers.

For instance, 666 instead of 777 is symbolic of man (made on the 6th day, with 6 days of work) instead of God's perfection in the number 7.

It's the same with 144k. It's simply the complete number of God's people. It's 12 tribes times 12 apostles times 1000, the number of complete fullness.

Otherwise, reading it literally, it's 144 thousand male Jewish virgins. And Jesus looks like a lamb with 7 eyes and 7 horns and has a sword coming out of his mouth! But hey, if you can just stretch yourselves to see that passage about Jesus as symbolic, and not LITERALLY describing him as having a sword in his mouth, then maybe, just maybe the 144,000 really is symbolic. As is the '1000 years'. Show me a place in the whole bible where 1000 is used literally?

plenty. especially in Numbers.
bad argument...
while i do agree with you that the 144000 is not a literal number, nor lteral males...
infact, male is not mentioned at all.

 

[eclipsenow]

Yes, the threefold repetition is found in many places. Mankind is created in verse 27.(3 times 3 times 3)

Ummmmm, the number for 'verse 27' was not part of the original Hebrew script but was added thousands of years later by Catholic monks for ease of reference!

also you mention 144,000

......................24 hours in a day
..............times 6 days of creation
...........equals 144 (12 tribes times 12 apostles)
.............times 1000 - a day = 1000 2 Pet.3;8
................is 144,000 of Rev.7,14 and 21

Fasinating stuff isn't it!

I didn't know the Hebrews measured time the same way we do in 24 hours in a day! I think you'll find that's an industrial artifice.

The 2 Peter 3:8 reference just confirms the way 1000 is used throughout the bible, which is 'the whole amount'. God owns the cattle on 1000 hills means he owns all the cattle.

So, sorry to be a killjoy, but I have absolutely no grounds or foundation for accepting your reading of numbers in the post above.

 

[eclipsenow]

plenty. especially in Numbers.
bad argument...
while i do agree with you that the 144000 is not a literal number, nor lteral males...
infact, male is not mentioned at all.

Show me the number 1000 used literally please?

 

[dana b]

In that day you shall surely die. Adam died at 930 years old. 70 less than 1000.

 

[heweeps]

Just a quick comment to eclipsenow. You can not understand the KJV so everybody else who relies on the KJV should change to a version you understand? I am supposing based on your comments that the Bishops and the Geneva are pre fundamentalist, maybe even for caveman type believers?

You don't see God as fundamental? You think maybe He adapts to the people as they evolve?

 

[dana b]

So much of Micah 4 seems to fit current events
- a nation people flow into
- a nation which other nations imitate
- a nation where people live in peace
- a nation where people walk in the name of their own gods
- a mighty nation which rebukes other nations and removes their weapons
- a mighty nation which goes to Babylon in war
- a mighty nation which many nations are gathered against
- a nation which has lost leadership

Micah 4: But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it.

For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.

In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted;

And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.

Now why dost thou cry out aloud? is there no king in thee? is thy counseller perished? for pangs have taken thee as a woman in travail.

Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.

Now also many nations are gathered against thee, that say, Let her be defiled, and let our eye look upon Zion.

But they know not the thoughts of the LORD, neither understand they his counsel: for he shall gather them as the sheaves into the floor.

Arise and thresh, O daughter of Zion: for I will make thine horn iron, and I will make thy hoofs brass: and thou shalt beat in pieces many people: and I will consecrate their gain unto the LORD, and their substance unto the Lord of the whole earth.
​

These above verses are describing the Christian Millennial kingdom of Rev.20;4,6. The "daughter of Zion" is the "grafted Gentile Christian Church." She is "not Zion of the law," but the "word of the Lords" followers. This is established today in the European nations.

How do we know this. They alone have followed Jesus's sentiment as Christian nations and stopped killing thier brothers. They quit using "capital punishment."

(not exciting enough for most sensationalist Christians? Oh well.)

 

[dana b]

Ummmmm, the number for 'verse 27' was not part of the original Hebrew script but was added thousands of years later by Catholic monks for ease of reference!



I didn't know the Hebrews measured time the same way we do in 24 hours in a day! I think you'll find that's an industrial artifice.

The 2 Peter 3:8 reference just confirms the way 1000 is used throughout the bible, which is 'the whole amount'. God owns the cattle on 1000 hills means he owns all the cattle.

So, sorry to be a killjoy, but I have absolutely no grounds or foundation for accepting your reading of numbers in the post above.

Are these calculations just a coincidence then?! I don't think so. I don't claim to explain them, I just am pointing then out as miracles!

............................24 hours in a day.
.....................times 6 days of Genesis Creation.
.........................=144
...................times 1000 2 Pet.3;8
......................=144,000 - the number in Rev.7,14 and 21

The numbers for verses and chapters and conon of Bible books were added and corrected by God thoughout the ages. The Bible is God's book. He inspired it's writting and he adjusts it's development during it's Hebrew, Greek, Latin and German/English translations. I trust God.

Look at how Noah is "sealed" during chapter 7 of the first book of the Bible, and the resustant 12 tribes are "sealed" durint the chapter 7 of the last book of the bible. With careful examination we can see that the Bible's chapter and verse numbers are indeed set up by God and not by men.

 

[zeke37]

Show me the number 1000 used literally please?

i did a simple bible search on "thousand" and came up with 439 hits in the KJV.
most of them are absolutely literal.

1. Genesis 20:16
   And unto Sarah he said, Behold, I have given thy brother a thousand pieces of silver: behold, he is to thee a covering of the eyes, unto all that are with thee, and with all other: thus she was reproved.
   Genesis 20:15-17 (in Context) Genesis 20 (Whole Chapter)
2. Exodus 12:37
   And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children.
   Exodus 12:36-38 (in Context) Exodus 12 (Whole Chapter)
3. Exodus 32:28
   And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.
   Exodus 32:27-29 (in Context) Exodus 32 (Whole Chapter)
4. Exodus 38:25
   And the silver of them that were numbered of the congregation was an hundred talents, and a thousand seven hundred and threescore and fifteen shekels, after the shekel of the sanctuary:
   Exodus 38:24-26 (in Context) Exodus 38 (Whole Chapter)
5. Exodus 38:26
   A bekah for every man, that is, half a shekel, after the shekel of the sanctuary, for every one that went to be numbered, from twenty years old and upward, for six hundred thousand and three thousand and five hundred and fifty men.
   Exodus 38:25-27 (in Context) Exodus 38 (Whole Chapter)

1. Matthew 14:21
   And they that had eaten were about five thousand men, beside women and children.
   Matthew 14:20-22 (in Context) Matthew 14 (Whole Chapter)
2. Acts 2:41
   Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
   Acts 2:40-42 (in Context) Acts 2 (Whole Chapter)
3. Acts 4:4
   Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.
   Acts 4:3-5 (in Context) Acts 4 (Whole Chapter)
4. Acts 19:19
   Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.
   Acts 19:18-20 (in Context) Acts 19 (Whole Chapter)
5. Acts 21:38
   Art not thou that Egyptian, which before these days madest an uproar, and leddest out into the wilderness four thousand men that were murderers?
   Acts 21:37-39 (in Context) Acts 21 (Whole Chapter)
6. Romans 11:4
   But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
   Romans 11:3-5 (in Context) Romans 11 (Whole Chapter)
7. 1 Corinthians 10:8
   Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
   1 Corinthians 10:7-9 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 10 (Whole Chapter)

so there is a dozen or so...OT and NT...and i didn't really try very hard.

 

[dana b]

i did a simple bible search on "thousand" and came up with 439 hits in the KJV.

most of them are absolutely literal.

1. Genesis 20:16
   And unto Sarah he said, Behold, I have given thy brother a thousand pieces of silver: behold, he is to thee a covering of the eyes, unto all that are with thee, and with all other: thus she was reproved.
   Genesis 20:15-17 (in Context) Genesis 20 (Whole Chapter)
2. Exodus 12:37
   And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children.
   Exodus 12:36-38 (in Context) Exodus 12 (Whole Chapter)
3. Exodus 32:28
   And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.
   Exodus 32:27-29 (in Context) Exodus 32 (Whole Chapter)
4. Exodus 38:25
   And the silver of them that were numbered of the congregation was an hundred talents, and a thousand seven hundred and threescore and fifteen shekels, after the shekel of the sanctuary:
   Exodus 38:24-26 (in Context) Exodus 38 (Whole Chapter)
5. Exodus 38:26
   A bekah for every man, that is, half a shekel, after the shekel of the sanctuary, for every one that went to be numbered, from twenty years old and upward, for six hundred thousand and three thousand and five hundred and fifty men.
   Exodus 38:25-27 (in Context) Exodus 38 (Whole Chapter)

1. Matthew 14:21
   And they that had eaten were about five thousand men, beside women and children.
   Matthew 14:20-22 (in Context) Matthew 14 (Whole Chapter)
2. Acts 2:41
   Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
   Acts 2:40-42 (in Context) Acts 2 (Whole Chapter)
3. Acts 4:4
   Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.
   Acts 4:3-5 (in Context) Acts 4 (Whole Chapter)
4. Acts 19:19
   Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.
   Acts 19:18-20 (in Context) Acts 19 (Whole Chapter)
5. Acts 21:38
   Art not thou that Egyptian, which before these days madest an uproar, and leddest out into the wilderness four thousand men that were murderers?
   Acts 21:37-39 (in Context) Acts 21 (Whole Chapter)
6. Romans 11:4
   But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
   Romans 11:3-5 (in Context) Romans 11 (Whole Chapter)
7. 1 Corinthians 10:8
   Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
   1 Corinthians 10:7-9 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 10 (Whole Chapter)

so there is a dozen or so...OT and NT...and i didn't really try very hard.

thanks for putting it this way. I'll think about this. Thankyou

 

[eclipsenow]

You don't see God as fundamental? You think maybe He adapts to the people as they evolve?

What kind of irrational taunt is this? God values good 'missiology' and clear communication so much He sent His Son, the WORD, into the world to live with us and speak with us. He then also let the bible be written in the languages the people spoke, Greek and Hebrew.

The irony here is the KJV was controversial and revolutionary for it's time precisely because it adopted the language of the people, back then. Instead of the traditional Latin bible, modernist revolutionaries had it translated into the English! Imagine if Tyndale had cowered under taunts that "God doesn't change therefore the Latin bible shouldn't?"

God's message doesn't change, but that doesn't mean we are stuck in Ye Olde Victorian. If you're going to insist God's word should be read in the pure original, then why not go all the way like Muslim's do and insist we all read it in the original Hebrew and Greek?

I'm continuing Tyndale's revolution and insisting that we read in reliable modern versions that have better historical source documents and better translation tools available than the KJV. The language has shifted. So it's time to translate the unchanging message of God into the shifting language. It's basic communication and basic missiology.

 

[Bible2]

NightHawkeye said in post #1:

Micah 4

Micah 4:1-8,13 is a prophecy of the future time of the millennium.

Micah 4:9-12 was a prophecy of the temporary Babylonian Captivity in the 6th century BC.

-

Regarding "the last days" of Micah 4:1, they began in the first century with Jesus Christ's first coming (Hebrews 1:2) and the Holy Spirit's coming at he Pentecost in Acts 2 (Acts 2:16-17). The last "days" are roughly the last three thousand-year "days" (cf. 2 Peter 3:8) of the roughly seven thousand-year "days" from the creation of Adam in roughly 4,000 BC to the future end of the present earth and creation of the new earth (Revelation 21:1) in roughly 3,000 AD. So the last "days" are the roughly 3,000 years from Jesus' first coming to sometime after the coming millennium (Revelation 20:4-6), which will be the last thousand-year "day".

-

Regarding the millennium, while the kingdom of God is spiritual and in the present (Romans 14:17), within people (Luke 17:21), the kingdom of God will also be physical in the future (Luke 22:30, Matthew 19:28), on the earth, first during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 20:4-6) and then on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-4). In both cases, what the church says in Revelation 5:9b-10 will apply: "thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth".

Jesus Christ's kingdom is Israel (John 12:13b-15, John 1:49b, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). That's why at his second coming, he will sit on the earthly throne of David (Luke 1:32, Isaiah 9:7) and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in his humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' return he will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11), to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a), and fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29.

And Jesus will also bring salvation to all the unbelieving elect Jews of the house of David, for they (along with all other unbelieving elect Jews) will come into faith in Jesus when they see him at his second coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will become part of the church at that time, for there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5).

During the millennium, which will begin after Jesus' second coming (Revelation 19:7-20:6), Gentile nations will come up to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) upon the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the physically resurrected church will reign on the earth with the returned Jesus for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30).

For all those in the church who are genetic Jews remain Israel (Romans 11:1), and all those in the church who are genetic Gentiles have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29). So the entire church is Israel (Revelation 21:9b,12b, 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary because all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, 1 Corinthians 11:25, 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), and the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the same as the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9b,12b).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus Christ (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

During the millennium, Jesus will place obedient Christians over cities (Luke 19:17-19) and nations (Revelation 2:26-29) and political divisions within nations (Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30), while Jesus himself will be King of Kings (Revelation 19:16) over the entire earth (Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11), reigning in the earthly Jerusalem (Micah 4:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-21).

Regarding who will populate the millennium, in the sense of having offspring during the millennium, it will be populated by the unsaved people "left" alive in their mortal bodies at the second coming of Jesus (Matthew 24:39b-40, Zechariah 14:16-19). It could also be populated by the elect Jews who will get saved at the second coming (Romans 11:25-29, Zechariah 12:10-14), for they could enter into the millennium (Zechariah 14:5-21) while still in their mortal bodies. For the resurrection/changing of the saved into immortal bodies, at the second coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Revelation 20:4-6), could be only for those who had become saved before the second coming.

-

Amillennialism mistakenly feels that the number 1,000 in Revelation 20:4-6 isn't literal, but must be only symbolic of fullness/completion (e.g. like in Psalms 50:10). But in the Bible, the number 1,000 can indicate 1,000 literally (e.g. Numbers 31:4-6, 35:4, Judges 20:10, 2 Kings 15:19, 1 Chronicles 19:6, Song of Songs 8:11, Revelation 20:2-6).

Amillennialism ends up (inadvertently) logically requiring the error of full preterism (2 Timothy 2:18), because claiming that the resurrection of the church in Revelation 20:4-6 is already present requires that the second coming of Jesus Christ has already happened, because the church won't be resurrected until the second coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7-20:6).

Also, amillennialism ends up (inadvertently) logically requiring the error of partial preterism, because claiming that the resurrection of those beheaded by the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) during the coming tribulation and their subsequent reigning on the earth with Jesus for the full 1,000 years of the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6) is already present, requires that the worldwide reign of the Antichrist during the tribulation (Revelation 13:4-18) has already happened.

Also, amillennialism is mistaken because it requires that the devil is currently bound in the bottomless pit (Revelation 20:1-6), when in fact he's currently walking around on the earth seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8).

-

Premillennialism was the teaching of the early church (see Papias) subsequent to John's writing-down the book of Revelation, based on the clear prophecy of Revelation 19:7-20:6, which shows that the millennium will occur subsequent to Jesus Christ's second coming. Amillennialism was an error that didn't crop up until later. The scriptural truth of premillennialism was recovered in relatively modern times because it was only then that a significant part of the church became interested again in eschatology, and believers could then search the scriptures for themselves to see that premillennialism was true, as opposed to during the many centuries when the mistakenly-amillennial Roman Catholic Church hierarchy mistakenly kept the scriptures from believers and simply told believers what to believe.

It's Jesus who showed the church in Revelation 19:7-20:6, Revelation 5:10, and Revelation 2:26-29 that after his return, he and the resurrected church will reign physically on the earth for 1,000 years. For the entire book of Revelation is from Jesus to the church (Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16). He didn't tell the church about the millennium before Revelation, because he waits to tell the church things when the church is ready to hear them, and not before (John 16:12). What's really sad is that even after he tells the church things, there can be some in the church who still can't hear them, but choose to reject them and replace them with man-made ideas (cf. 2 Timothy 4:3-4).

-

Just as Jesus' coming down to the level of an earthly man (John 1:1,14) isn't wrong, because it in no way affects his continuing to be God at the same time (John 10:30, John 20:28), so Jesus' future taking, as the human son of David, the earthly throne of David forever (Luke 1:32-33) won't be wrong, because it will in no way affect Jesus' continuing to be God at the same time (Isaiah 9:6-7).

Just as Jesus Christ is both man and God at the same time, so Jesus Christ is both Savior and King. His name "Jesus" points to his role as Savior (Matthew 1:21), and his title of "Christ" points to his role as King (Mark 15:32).

Jesus Christ not establishing his physical kingdom at his first coming wasn't a failure, because he was never meant to establish his physical kingdom at his first coming. Instead, he was meant to meekly suffer and die on the Cross for our sins (Isaiah 53), by which work his spiritual kingdom (Romans 14:17) could be established on the earth first. It wasn't a contingency plan, but was always determined that he wouldn't establish his physical kingdom until his second coming (Zechariah 14:3-21, Revelation 19:7-20:6).

John 18:36 meant that Jesus Christ's future physical reign on the earth, with the resurrected church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), won't be of this world in the sense that it won't come by worldly means, such as by the church fighting physically to establish it (cf. 2 Corinthians 10:3-4a, Matthew 26:52, Matthew 5:39). Instead, it will come only by Jesus returning from heaven to establish it (Revelation 19:7-20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Amillennialism wants to have it both ways: on the one hand it wants to say that the millennial kingdom is already here and now on this earth, but then when premillennialism says that the millennial kingdom will be on the earth in the future, amillennialism suddenly wants to use "My kingdom is not of this world" (John 18:36) to say that the millennial kingdom can't possibly be on the earth in the future. Why can the millennial kingdom be on the earth now but not in the future? Also, it should be pointed out that after the millennium and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-15), a new earth will be created and God's kingdom will be on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-22:5).

---

NightHawkeye said in post #3:

Micah 5

Micah 5:5's "the Assyrian shall come into our land" could refer to when the Antichrist will pillage Jerusalem right before the second coming of Jesus (Zechariah 14:2-4) and the defeat of the Antichrist (Isaiah 30:30-33, Revelation 19:20). The subsequent successful fighting by the Jews in Zechariah 14:14 (cf. Zechariah 12:6-8) could include what Micah 5:5b-6a is referring to.

---

NightHawkeye said in post #7:

Isaiah 10

Isaiah 10:5-34 could have been fulfilled during Sennacherib's invasion in Isaiah chapters 36-37.

Isaiah 10:9-11 could have been fulfilled in Isaiah 36:19-20/2 Kings 18:34-35.

Isaiah 10:12,20-21 could have been fulfilled in Isaiah 37:31-38.

There's no historical proof (as is sometimes insisted) that Sennacherib didn't fulfill Isaiah 10:28-32. His main army could have gone down the coast while he led an expeditionary force quickly down the ridge (leaving no archaeological markers) to check out the approaches to Jerusalem and get a sense of the best way to lay siege to it. Then he could have shaken his fist at Jerusalem (Isaiah 10:32) and rejoined his main army along the coast.

Later, while he was besieging Lachish, he could have worried how long it would take to besiege Jerusalem, and so sent some of his forces to try to scare-talk Jerusalem into surrender (2 Kings 18:17-37) so he wouldn't have to return and lay siege to it. Note the similarity of his boasting in 2 Kings 18:34-35/Isaiah 36:19-20 and that prophesied in Isaiah 10:9-11.

 

[Bible2]

josephearl said in post #14:

“And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:” (Revelation 7:4, NASB95)

These are Jewish believers. There is not one man alive on the earth who could know who is of which tribe for all 12 tribes.

The 144,000 are indeed believers (Revelation 14:1,4), and so they're members of the church (cf. Ephesians 4:4-6). They're the firstfruits of the church (Revelation 14:4b) in the sense of being its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12). They're male virgins (Revelation 14:4) who could all have been born in the 20th or 21st century and who could all be alive on the earth today. They will all be alive on the earth when the future tribulation of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6-18 begins, and so they will all enter into it (Revelation 7:4, Revelation 9:4), just as all the rest of the church alive on the earth when the tribulation begins will enter into it (cf. Revelation 7:9,14), for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Mark 13:24-27).

The 144,000 can include both Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians. For just as all genetic Jews in the church remain members of the tribe of Israel into which they were born (Romans 11:1b, Acts 4:36b), so all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the twelve tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9b,12b).

This is necessary because all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, 1 Corinthians 11:25, 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), and the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the same as the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9b,12b). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he's a part of, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

The tribe of Dan is missing from the list of the twelve tribes of the 144,000 (Revelation 7:5-8), because the Israel the 144,000 are from isn't genetic Israel with its twelve genetic tribes (Genesis 49:28) which include Dan (Genesis 49:17), but rather spiritual Israel, which is different than genetic Israel (Romans 9:3-8), and which consists of all the elect (Romans 9:11-13), both Jews and Gentiles (Romans 9:24).

-

All obedient believers will be spiritually protected during the coming tribulation of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6-18, no matter what happens to them physically (Romans 8:35-37). And some in the church will also be physically protected during some or all of that time, while others in the church won't be physically protected during that time.

The 144,000 male-virgins part of the church (Revelation 14:4), along with some others in the church, will be physically protected so that they will survive the first stage (Revelation 6) of the coming tribulation, while many others in the church won't be physically protected, so that they will die during that first stage, and their souls will enter into heaven (Revelation 7:9,14).

After the first stage is over, the 144,000 part of the church will be sealed (Revelation 7:3-4) for physical protection (Revelation 9:4) before the seventh seal of the tribulation is unsealed (Revelation 8:1). Out of the seventh seal will come the seven trumpets of the tribulation (Revelation 8:1-2). The events of the first six trumpets up to Revelation 9:19 will be the second stage of the tribulation. The seal that the 144,000 will receive (which will be different from and in addition to the seal of the Holy Spirit himself which they and all other believers receive: Ephesians 1:13b) will physically protect them during this second stage (Revelation 9:4). Everyone else in the church still alive on the earth at that time won't necessarily be physically protected, but at least some will be.

This physical protection of some in the church but not others in the church during the coming tribulation will be similar to how the first-century local church congregation in the city of Philadelphia in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) was physically protected during one specific first-century tribulation (Revelation 3:10) while the first-century local church congregation in the city of Smyrna in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) wasn't physically protected during that one specific first-century tribulation (Revelation 2:10).

After the second stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18 is over, the 144,000 male virgins part of the church (like Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies into heaven: Hebrews 11:5, 2 Kings 2:11) will be caught up in their mortal bodies as the "man child" to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 12:5; Revelation 14:4-5, TR), right before the third stage of the tribulation, the 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast), begins (Revelation 12:5-6, Revelation 13:5-8). This 3.5-year time period is shown from four different angles in Revelation chapters 11-14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:9-13).

The 144,000 male-virgins part of the church (Revelation 14:1,4) will remain up in heaven before God's throne (Revelation 14:5, TR) during the 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 14:9-13, Revelation 13:5-10) while two other parts of the church will still be on the earth: the figurative "woman" who represents all those in the church who will flee into wilderness places and be physically protected (Revelation 12:6,14), and the remnant of the woman's seed (Revelation 12:17) who will be all those in the church who will remain in the cities and not be physically protected, but will be persecuted in every nation, imprisoned and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

After the 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist is declared legally over at the sounding of the seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the seven plagues of the seven vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly temple opening of the seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5-16:1). These seven vials will be the fourth and final stage (Revelation 16) of the tribulation. Because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of the vials of God's wrath will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth during that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have built for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had built for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7).

So some in the church will survive the entire future tribulation of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6-18 while remaining on the earth. They are those who will be alive on the earth at the second coming of Jesus to be raptured (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). These survivors will have experienced God's miraculous physical protection (cf. Psalms 91) throughout the entire tribulation, without having to have been part of the 144,000.

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The number 144,000 in Revelation 7:4 and Revelation 14:1,3 is a literal number of people, which will consist of twelve groups with 12,000 people in each group (Revelation 7:5-8).

Similarly, the 144,000 will be literal male virgins, never having had intercourse with women (Revelation 14:4); just as 1 Corinthians 7:25 refers to literal virgins.

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There is such a thing as the best part of the church, for the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church is the firstfruits of the church (Revelation 14:4), in the sense of its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12). This doesn't create a schism in the church, for as believers the 144,000 are still an integral part of the one and only body of the church made up of all believers (Ephesians 4:4-6). But in this one body, all believers "have not the same office" (Romans 12:4); some believers have better offices/gifts than others (1 Corinthians 12:28-31).

-

During the coming tribulation, the unsaved (and the apostate) people who will be assigned to have the mark of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) placed on their foreheads (instead of on their right hands) (Revelation 13:16) could be those who will be an elite, illumined, cognoscenti class of Gnostic Luciferians who alone will have been given knowledge of the ultimate secrets of the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism. The Antichrist will be both a Luciferian (Revelation 13:4) and a Gnostic, denying that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3), and forbidding marriage and the eating of meat (1 Timothy 4:1-3). The cream of his cognoscenti could be a faux 144,000, consisting of male virgins (as a counterfeit of Revelation 14:4) who have never eaten meat. If they receive the mark of the Antichrist's name (instead of the number of his name) (Revelation 13:17) on their foreheads, this will be as a counterfeit of YHWH's 144,000 in Revelation 14:1. But the Antichrist won't pretend that he's YHWH, just as he won't pretend that he's Christ. Instead, as a Gnostic he will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And his Gnostic denial that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3) will disqualify him (under his mistaken Gnostic doctrine) from being the Christ.

 

[eclipsenow]

blah blah blah. So much speculative blahing.

Tell me this: what if Microsoft comes out with a chip with 6 rows of 6 super-chips in 6 layers? They want to stick it on your forehead for easy identification and shopping and using future robot-cars, but are aware that Christians would object. So they make plans for it to be on the back of the head and the left hand. What then? Are we safe from the charge of having succumbed to the mark of the beast?

I say all this to illustrate just how silly all this speculative futurism is. The mark of the beast is symbolic. It's 666 instead of 777. It's about us trusting in this world's value systems instead of Christ. It's about serving God, not mammon.

I doubt ANY futurist reading of scripture here will EVER literally be fulfilled! The only part of the future we know is that:
* Christ will never let his church be completely wiped off the earth
* Christ will return one day in Judgement and recreate the New Heavens and New Earth.

Everything else is silly interpretative speculation and seems to be held in spite of the obvious retelling of the gospel in Revelation.

 

[Bible2]

eclipsenow said in post #33:

The mark of the beast is symbolic. It's 666 instead of 777.

The "mark of the beast" (Revelation 13:16-17, Revelation 16:2) will be a literal, physical mark which will be visible to humans, because otherwise they couldn't tell whether or not someone should be permitted to buy or sell (Revelation 13:17), and because the original Greek of Revelation 13:16 shows that the mark will be placed only "on" (epi), not inside, people's right hands or foreheads, and probably by scarification. For one of the definitions of "charagma" (the original Greek word used in Revelation 13:16 to refer to the mark) is a scratch or etching, and scarification is the scratching or etching of the skin to leave a permanent mark. The reason people will be given the mark in Revelation 13:16, in the context of what had been shown just previously in Revelation 13:4,8,15, will be to serve as a visible indicator to other people that they're loyal worshippers of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) himself (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9) and of the Antichrist and his image (Revelation 13:4,8,15), just as some Luciferians today put a mark on themselves by scarification.

The mark will consist of only the name of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) "or" the gematrial number of his name (Revelation 13:17-18), meaning that the mark will be the Antichrist's name for some people and the gematrial number of his name for other people. And the mark will be placed only on the right hands (probably on the palms) of people "or" on their foreheads (Revelation 13:16), meaning that it will be placed on the right hands of some people and on the foreheads of other people.

Those who refuse to receive the mark of the Antichrist won't be allowed to buy or sell anything (Revelation 13:17), and they will be executed by being beheaded if they refuse to worship the Antichrist and his image (Revelation 13:15, Revelation 20:4). Christians must be willing to suffer this fate rather than agree to receive the mark of the Antichrist or worship him or his image, for those who agree to do those things (even if they're Christians) will suffer God's wrath in fire and brimstone forever (Revelation 14:9-13), whereas those Christians who refuse to do those things, even though they will be beheaded, they will subsequently be resurrected into immortality (along with the rest of the church) at Jesus Christ's second coming (Revelation 20:4-6, 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-58). And even before their resurrection, at the moment of their death their still-conscious souls will be brought into the presence of Jesus himself in heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43,46).

-

In the future, when the world begins to worship the Antichrist as God (Revelation 13:8, 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36), some people could gladly be willing to have his name placed by scarification on their right palms, just as lovers in the past were sometimes known to have the initials of their loved ones placed by scarification on their palms (cf. also Isaiah 49:16). Other of the Antichrist's worshippers could gladly be willing to have his name placed by scarification on their foreheads, thinking (mistakenly) that they're fulfilling the Christian idea of Revelation 22:4, which refers to the future point in time when Jesus will put God's name visibly on the foreheads of obedient Christians (Revelation 3:12). The Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet, who will be the one to cause everyone to be marked with the mark of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:16-18), could even convince people that he (the False Prophet) is Jesus returned (but he won't say that he's Christ/God, for he and the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is Christ/God: 1 John 2:22).

Instead of having the Antichrist's name engraved on their right hands or foreheads, some of his worshippers will have the gematrial number of his name (Revelation 13:17c-18) engraved on their right hands or foreheads. The gematrial number of the Antichrist's name is 666 (Revelation 13:17b-18). But because some people could refuse to have this number placed on their bodies, in order to make a mark of 666 acceptable to all people, it could be disguised to look like something else in those cases where people demand something other than "666". For example, it could be disguised in some cases to look like "777", "WWW", "VVV", "|| || ||", or "FFF". For the sixth letter of the ancient Hebrew alphabet (Vav) represents the number 6, but it looks like a "7", and it's transliterated into English either as a "W" or a "V". Also, two thin vertical lines "||" represent the number 6 on many UPC codes. And the letter "F" also has a numerical value of 6, in English gematria.

In a curious coincidence, "FFF" also stands for an extremely powerful type of nuclear bomb: Fission-Fusion-Fission. Could this be the type of bomb with which the ten kings of the Antichrist's empire will burn up the cities of the world near the end of the coming tribulation (Revelation 17:12,16-17a, Revelation 16:19, Revelation 19:2,11)?

The "WWW" which has already been placed on many web addresses, and the "|| || ||" which has already been placed across many UPC codes on products, are harbingers of when Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) will give the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) ownership of everything on the earth (Revelation 13:2c, cf. Luke 4:7), and of the Antichrist's placing of his "brand" on everything, like a rancher places his "brand" on all his cattle. For both "WWW" and "|| || ||" are disguised representations of the gematrial number of the Antichrist's own, personal name (Revelation 13:17c-18). But Revelation 13:16 isn't fulfilled by some web addresses currently having "WWW", nor by some products currently having "|| || ||", because Revelation 13:16 refers only to when people themselves will be given the Antichrist's mark, either on their right hands or their foreheads.

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eclipsenow said in post #33:

The mark of the beast is symbolic. It's 666 instead of 777.

The 666 in Revelation 13:17c-18 is referring to the "number of the name" of the "man" who is the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast). The number of a name is determined by employing the ancient method of gematria, by which numerical values are assigned to the letters of an alphabet as follows: the first nine letters in an alphabet are 1 through 9, the next nine letters are 10 through 90 (counting by tens), and the rest of the letters are 100, 200, 300, etc., to the end of the alphabet.

In Revelation 13:18, the "counting", the adding up, of the number of the Antichrist's name should be done in the same way that the numerical values of the three Greek letters (Chi, Xi, Stigma) at the end of Revelation 13:18 (in the original Greek Textus Receptus) are added up to arrive at the number 666. The numerical values of the letters of the ancient Greek alphabet (including the three obsolete letters of Stigma, Qoppa and Sampi) were as follows:

Alpha = 1
Beta = 2
Gamma = 3
Delta = 4
Epsilon = 5
(Stigma = 6)
Zeta = 7
Eta = 8
Theta = 9
Iota = 10
Kappa = 20
Lambda = 30
Mu = 40
Nu = 50
Xi = 60
Omikron = 70
Pi = 80
(Qoppa = 90)
Rho = 100
Sigma = 200
Tau = 300
Upsilon = 400
Phi = 500
Chi = 600
Psi = 700
Omega = 800
(Sampi = 900)

Just as the numerical values of the letters Chi, Xi and Stigma at the end of Revelation 13:18 (in the original Greek Textus Receptus) add up to 666, so the numerical values of the letters in the Antichrist's name will add up to 666 (Revelation 13:17c-18). In Revelation 13:17c-18, John the apostle used the ancient Greek alphabet only because it was the most common alphabet used by believers at the time the book of Revelation was written. Today, the most common alphabet used by believers is the English alphabet, insofar as English is the current lingua franca of the world. So the numerical values of the letters in the Antichrist's name will most likely add up to 666 in the English alphabet.

The whole purpose of Revelation 13:17c-18 is to facilitate for believers, not to make difficult for them, the identification of a certain man as possibly being the Antichrist. If the letters in his name had to be transliterated into the ancient Greek alphabet, this would vitiate this purpose, for almost all believers today wouldn't know how to properly perform the transliteration (as God himself would perform it), and different believers would no doubt come up with variant, competing transliterations, and therefore would arrive at variant, competing numbers for the name of the certain man in question.

If Christians think that someone is the Antichrist, they need to check and make sure that his name adds up to 666 (Revelation 13:17c-18). If it doesn't, then he isn't the Antichrist, and they need to keep on looking out for the real Antichrist. If it does add up to 666, then he could be the Antichrist, and they need to be especially wary of him and not be taken in by any deceptive charisma, intelligence or amazing deeds that he might display. But even if someone's name adds up to 666, this doesn't mean that he's definitely the Antichrist, for just by chance there could be more than one person in the world whose name adds up to 666.

The Antichrist also has to come from a country the territory of which used to be part of one of the four Diadochian Greek kingdoms which succeeded the Greek Empire of Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:8-9,21-25). These four kingdoms stretched from Greece over to Iran, and down into Egypt. So the Antichrist will probably come from the Middle East. He could be an Arab who will come from Lebanon, from the modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:4), and have a name like (for example) "Nabil Abdullah Falakal al-Hakim", which adds up to 666.

But if a man from the Middle East has a name which adds up to 666, even this doesn't assure that he's the Antichrist. For the Antichrist also has to sit in a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15, Revelation 11:1-2). Once he does that, there won't be any room for doubt about whether or not he's the Antichrist; his identity will have been definitely revealed (2 Thessalonians 2:3b-4).

The gematrial numerical values of the letters of the English alphabet are:

A=1
B=2
C=3
D=4
E=5
F=6
G=7
H=8
I=9
J=10
K=20
L=30
M=40
N=50
O=60
P=70
Q=80
R=90
S=100
T=200
U=300
V=400
W=500
X=600
Y=700
Z=800

The way that the number of a name is "counted" (Revelation 13:17c-18), added up, is simply by adding up the numerical values of all the letters in that name. So, for example, the number of the name "John Mark Smith" is 636, because:

J=10
O=60
H=8
N=50

M=40
A=1
R=90
K=20

S=100
M=40
I=9
T=200
H=8

Total = 636

The Antichrist's name will add up to 666 (Revelation 13:17c-18).

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eclipsenow said in post #33:

Christ will never let his church be completely wiped off the earth

That's right.

Matthew 24:22 / Mark 13:20 could mean that if the Lord hadn't already shortened (as in "he hath shortened": Mark 13:20) the number of days, hadn't already determined (from the beginning of Creation, cf. Isaiah 46:10) that he would return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, cf. Revelation 16:15), which 1,335th day would be immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31) events of Matthew 24/Mark 13/Revelation chapters 6-18, immediately after the worldwide destruction of the seventh vial (Revelation 16:19, Revelation 19:2-21); but instead had determined to just let the world suffer through the aftermath of the seventh vial; then all flesh on the earth would die in the aftermath, which could involve a nuclear winter scenario (which the Lord will miraculously prevent at his return) brought on by the ten kings of the Antichrist's empire nuking the cities of the earth at the seventh vial (Revelation 17:16-17a, Revelation 16:19).

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eclipsenow said in post #33:

Christ will return one day in Judgement and recreate the New Heavens and New Earth.

Regarding 2 Peter 3:10, in the day of the Lord will occur the destruction of heaven (the first heaven: the sky, the atmosphere) and the earth (the surface of the earth) at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11, Revelation 21:1), and this will be followed by the creation of a new atmosphere and a new surface for the earth (2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 21:1) onto which New Jerusalem, the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:2-3), will physically descend from the third heaven (Revelation 21:2-3).

But the day of the Lord won't immediately bring the destruction of the current atmosphere and surface of the earth, because the day of the Lord will begin at Jesus' second coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8) as a thief (2 Peter 3:10a, Revelation 16:15), after which he will establish his kingdom physically on the earth with the just-resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 19:7-20:6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

After the 1,000 years are over, the Gog/Magog rebellion will occur (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), and after the defeat of the Gog/Magog rebellion at least seven more years will occur on the earth (Ezekiel 39:9b) before its atmosphere and surface are destroyed at the white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11). All these events, from the second coming of Jesus to the white throne judgment, will be part of the day of the Lord, because it's not a 24-hour day, but to God is like a 1,000-year "day" (cf. 2 Peter 3:8).

 

[eclipsenow]

The "mark of the beast" (Revelation 13:16-17, Revelation 16:2) will be a literal, physical mark which will be visible to humans, because otherwise they couldn't tell whether or not someone should be permitted to buy or sell (Revelation 13:17), and because the original Greek of Revelation 13:16 shows that the mark will be placed only "on" (epi), not inside, people's right hands or foreheads, and probably by scarification.

Cool. So it's a "literal" mark of the beast! OK, wow, sorry for my misunderstanding, a "literal" mark! That clears it all up. So I'm fine if I get a microchip with 6 bits by 6 bits by 6 bits implanted IN my forehead, as long as I don't get the number 666 tattooed ON my forehead? Says who? YOU? Can you prove this? No? So ... my eternal salvation regarding this Mark of the Beast thing depends on .... just your opinion?

I'd laugh, but you have the makings of another end times cult here. Up there with Jonestown and Waco. You're already beginning to change the basic gospel. No thanks. The gospel saves me, not YOUR particular reading of this passage. As if someone tying me to a table and tattooing my head can take away my salvation. Or didn't you think of that? Didn't you anticipate some Christians might be forced, against their will, to get tattooed, if that's all this really is? A little anaesthetic and you can do what you want to someone. I remember a Christian houseparty where the girls played Tic Tac Toe on my forehead while I was asleep, let alone knocked out by drugs!

I think you need to get back to beginner's bible study and read up on how we are saved in the first place!

Gematria schmeartria: show me where the BIBLE says to use Gematria! It just doesn't. Instead, there is a wealth of biblical data about Jewish number symbolism. Try and avoid the temptation to play silly code-word games with Greek and then English. I mean, as IF John knew English!

Lastly, if you read the mark literally, is the REST of Revelation "literal"? How about Jesus having 7 horns and 7 eyes and a sword for a tongue? Literal or not literal? Or is it, instead, literary? It's simple; Revelation is written in literary symbolism, not literal codes. I just laugh when people try to say they read Revelation 'literally' and then fill in all the actual details for us because, of course, the text DOES NOT refer to tattoos on the skin or fission bombs or Adolf Hitler or gas masks or even Kylie Minogue. The language is too vague. It's too generic. It's too symbolic. So when I ask questions about microchips being the mark, you immediately forget about various scanners that could read those chips and allow commerce, and go on your own tangent about scarification. (As if the microchip scenarios themselves were not a tangential load of rubbish in themselves!)

The reality is you do NOT read Revelation literally, because you immediately jump in and add so much junk to it that we may as well not read the text. How about you just write your own version of the book and be done with it? We'll just read the Letter of Bible2 instead. Because only you seem to be able to read it literally, which involves changing first century symbols into modern FFF bombs.

Diagnosis: vague wishy washy theology based on strange word games that many liberal theologians want to play with the text, rather than read the biblical symbols in their Jewish cultural context. It's a deliberate attempt at AVOIDING those very symbols!
Prescription: Milk for you son, not meat.

 

[Bible2]

eclipsenow said in post #35:

So I'm fine if I get a microchip with 6 bits by 6 bits by 6 bits implanted IN my forehead, as long as I don't get the number 666 tattooed ON my forehead?

While the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) could seek to inject RFID microchips into everyone (which could be used like debit cards), the microchips would be separate from the actual "mark of the beast" (Revelation 16:2, Revelation 13:16-18). For Revelation 13:17b-18 shows that the mark won't be a microchip, but only the Antichrist's name or the gematrial number of his name. Also, the original Greek of Revelation 13:16 shows that the mark will be placed only "on" (epi), not inside, people's right hands or foreheads; and probably through scarification. For, as was pointed out in post #34, one of the definitions of "charagma" (the original Greek word used in Revelation 13:16 to refer to the mark) is a scratch or etching, and scarification is the scratching or etching of the skin to leave a permanent mark. The reason people will be given the mark in Revelation 13:16, in the context of what had been shown just previously in Revelation 13:4,8,15, will be to serve as a visible indicator to other people that they're loyal worshippers of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) himself (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9) and of the Antichrist and his image (Revelation 13:4,8,15), just as some Luciferians today put a mark on themselves by scarification.

Even though microchip implants won't be the mark, and even though they could be instituted in some countries even before the world becomes Luciferian during the Antichrist's 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:4-18), we should still reject microchip implants, whenever they appear, so that they can't be used to track us, and so that we won't become cyborgs, turned into walking debit cards, fitted as mere cogs/chips into the technological/economic system of the already-existing harlot of "Babylon", who we then won't ever be able to "come out of" (Revelation 18:4) because our very bodies will have become integral parts of her.

It should be pointed out that a scarification mark wouldn't replace microchip implants, which could be used to electronically perform buy/sell transactions (like debit cards do today). Instead, a scarification mark would be in addition to them; just as today, the club-member cards of members-only stores don't replace debit cards, but are in addition to them.

Just as without a club-member card, people today aren't permitted to buy anything at a members-only store, even if they have a debit card; so without the mark of the Antichrist, people during the Antichrist's 3.5-year, Luciferian, worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18) won't be permitted to buy anything (Revelation 13:17), even if they have a debit-microchip implant.

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eclipsenow said in post #35:

As if someone tying me to a table and tattooing my head can take away my salvation.

Our salvation will be taken away if we worship the Antichrist and his image, and by our own volition receive his mark on our forehead or hand (Revelation 14:9-12; in the original Greek, "receive" in Revelation 14:9 is in the active voice, not the passive voice).

Regarding the "image of the beast" (Revelation 13:15), it could be an android image of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) which the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 13:11-16, Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13) will cause to be made after the Antichrist receives a terrible head wound which kills him (Revelation 13:14b, cf. Revelation 13:3). For even though the Antichrist could be resuscitated back to life by a team of excellent doctors who could follow him with all the latest life-saving devices wherever he goes, he may never make a full recovery in that his head wound could leave his facial and bodily appearance permanently marred, and he may never be able to speak clearly again (like someone after a bad stroke), so that he won't want to appear or speak in public ever again. The False Prophet could then assign the world's best roboticists and computer programmers to design and make a lifelike android that appears to be alive and speaks (Revelation 13:15) and looks just like the Antichrist did before his head wound, so that the android will from then on be the public stand-in for the wounded Antichrist.

Did you ever see that movie "Dave"? It had a President who was in a coma, so his handlers found a regular guy who looked exactly like the President, and had him be a public stand-in for the President. He was able to speak just like the President did. It could be like that with the image of the Antichrist; it could be the Antichrist's "Dave", his double, that appears before the world instead of his wounded self. But instead of telling people that the android image of the Antichrist is the Antichrist himself, the False Prophet could tell people from the beginning that the image is a separate entity than the Antichrist himself, but one who still fully represents the Antichrist.

In Revelation 13:15, the original Greek word translated as "life" or "breath" ("pneuma", G4151) can mean "spirit" in the sense of consciousness (cf. 1 Corinthians 2:11a, Luke 1:47), so that the android could appear to have a spirit, to have consciousness. The way this could be achieved would be through the android having wireless connections to massive banks of supercomputers running highly-advanced artificial intelligence software. The False Prophet could claim that the consciousness of the Antichrist himself dwells within the android by means of neural networks imprinted with the brain patterns of the Antichrist. But this could be a lie, in that the android won't actually have the Antichrist's consciousness, or any true consciousness, but will only appear to have consciousness. It could pass even the most stringent Turing Test, a test whereby one speaks with a computer and can't tell whether it has consciousness or not, because all of its answers are the same as if it had consciousness.

But the "consciousness" of the android could appear far more advanced than any human's, for it could have access to gigantic databases containing every fact known to man, so that the android will appear to be omniscient, so that it could convince the world that it's not just a machine, but a material incarnation, a machine avatar, of the true God, a literal "deus ex machina", a literal "God from a machine". And this "God" could boast not only of his mental powers but also of his physical powers: the android could be extremely strong. And this "God" could boast of the "immortality" of his machine body, which could be made of titanium, covered with some practically everlasting flesh-like silicone.

People could just be completely awestruck by his (what they could call) "omniscient wisdom, his strength, his indestructibility". They could consider him more than worthy of worship by (in their words) "mere humanity, which is so mentally limited and so physically limited, made out of mere flesh and blood which is so weak and so mortal". The world will worship the image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15) just as it will worship Lucifer (the dragon, the devil) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:4,8).

The android image of the Antichrist could be placed standing in the holy place of a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem, so that the android becomes the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). And in order to make it easy for everyone in the world to be able to see the image and worship it (Revelation 13:15), it could be made to appear on every cell phone, GPS-navigation system, work computer, home computer, television, electronic billboard, etc. And to make it possible for everyone to interact with it personally, it could appear as a computer-generated image on each individual's cell phone, speaking in and understanding each individual's language, conversing with each individual with personalized messages and responses devised by supercomputers running artificial intelligence and language software.

And it could discuss with them even the most intimate details of their lives, for it could have access to huge databases compiled by the Antichrist's worldwide intelligence, law enforcement, economic and health agencies, databases containing all the facts about everyone: who their family and friends are, where they live and work, who their neighbors and coworkers are, how much they make, what cars and properties they own and use, what they buy, where they go, what they watch, what they read, what they say, what they write on the internet, what their health problems are, etc., so that the image of the Antichrist could seem to know everything about everyone.

A second reason that the Antichrist might want everyone to worship his image (besides the perfect image serving as a stand-in for his possibly marred facial and bodily features and slurred speech after his head wound) would be that the worship of it will be connected with a daily surveillance and subjugation of everyone. The image's supercomputers could make the image automatically appear on everyone's cell phone at set times each day to be worshipped. Cell phones contain GPS chips which can be secretly pinged in order to determine the exact location of the cell phones. So when the image appears on everyone's cell phone, the image's supercomputers could ping the GPS chip of everyone's cell phone and know exactly where everyone is.

Also, cell phones contain cameras and microphones, which can be remotely opened secretly in order to be able to see and hear what's going on around the cell phones. So when the image appears on everyone's cell phone, the image's supercomputers could open the cameras and microphones of everyone's cell phone to determine what everyone's doing and saying, and the image could then demand that the individuals worship him as God, saying some set prayer of praise and adoration. And if any individuals refuse, the image's supercomputers could detect those individuals' non-compliance through the individuals' cell-phones' cameras and microphones. The image's supercomputers could then automatically notify the nearest police station of those individuals' exact locations, and order the police to arrest those individuals for blasphemy and treason. The individuals could then be given a chance to be "reformed" (through torture, if necessary), but if they prove recalcitrant, they will be executed (Revelation 13:15b) by being beheaded (Revelation 20:4).

The beheading process itself could be made into quite a televised/webcasted spectacle, to serve not only as a dire warning to anyone thinking of refusing to worship the image, but also to serve as an amazingly-horrific entertainment for the masses, like how the ancient Romans made it an entertainment for the masses to gather them into the Colosseum in Rome and let them watch Christians being thrown to the lions and devoured alive.

Huge beheading structures could be built by which 20 "infidels/traitors" could be beheaded at one time by the single fall of a single blade. The "infidels/traitors" could be bound in a row along an upright "U"-shaped device with a track for a huge and extremely massive and extremely sharp guillotine blade, which could start out in a resting position at the top of one side. The blade could be so massive and so sharp that when it's released, it will easily slice down through 10 necks on one side of the "U" and continue on by its own momentum up the other side of the "U", shearing off another 10 heads. This all could happen so quickly that it will appear as if all 20 heads are struck off almost in unison, followed immediately by 20 geysers of blood rushing out in unison for all the Antichrist's "faithful" to gawk at and cheer over in the comfort of their own homes before their televisions, computers or web-enabled devices.

Immediately after the show is over, at the site where it took place teams of surgeons could rush in to "harvest" all the fresh organs and other body parts from the beheaded bodies to be used for transplants (beheading being the best way for a body to die if you want to harvest its parts).

With regard to the actual worship of the image, to help foster a group dynamic every neighborhood and village in the world could be helped to create a group worship center in which everyone will have to gather together at a set time every evening to bow down and prostrate himself or herself before a life-size, lifelike image of the Antichrist, which could be a computer-generated, animated, holographic (or 3-D, HD) image of him clothed in beautiful golden robes and standing majestically before them (or sitting upon a magnificent golden throne) and speaking computer-generated customized messages to them as a group.

This worship could be accompanied by the most beautiful symphonic music (cf. Daniel 3:5) (or whatever is the most beautiful music to the local people) to help them (in the words of the Antichrist's propaganda machine) "be uplifted into the true spirit of praise and worship of our gracious Lord and Master. Praised be His Majestic Name forever and ever!", etc. And what with the wonderful music, and all their fellow worshippers around them, and customized messages of encouragement spoken in a deep, soothing voice by a life-size holographic (or 3-D, HD) image of the Antichrist to certain members of each "worship group", it could be that some people in each group will start to really get into the evening worship sessions, and even begin to (in their words) "truly feel the Living Presence of our loving God among us, loving us so tenderly, so personally! Oh, how I love Him! He is So Great!"

But the world's worship of the Antichrist's image (Revelation 13:15), no matter how blissful it may become for some people, and the world's worship of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) himself and Lucifer (the dragon) (Revelation 13:4), will last for less than four years (Revelation 13:5, Daniel 12:11-12) before Jesus Christ returns from heaven and completely defeats the Antichrist and Lucifer (Revelation 19:20-20:3), and Jesus then sets up his own, 1000-year physical kingdom on the earth with the just-resurrected church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

(Continued in next post)

 

[Bible2]

(Continued from prior post)

Regarding the fact that our salvation will be taken away if we worship the Antichrist (Revelation 14:9-12), it should be pointed out that it's possible that even some Christians will be deceived by him and his False Prophet. For in Matthew 24:24b, Jesus doesn't say "if it were possible", in the sense of it not being possible. Instead, in the original Greek all Jesus says is "if possible", meaning that false Christs and false prophets will perform great miracles by the power of Satan (cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:9) as part of Satan's intention of deceiving as many of the elect as possible. Jesus nowhere says that it's not possible for any elect person to be deceived. Instead, Jesus had started out in Matthew 24 by specifically warning the elect to "Take heed that no man deceive you" (Matthew 24:4), meaning that it's possible for the elect to be deceived, if they don't take heed to Jesus' warning regarding great-miracle-working false Christs and false prophets who will appear in the future (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Mark 13:5-6,21-23, Luke 21:8, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20).

The elect can also be deceived in other ways, either before their salvation (Titus 3:3, Romans 7:11) or after their salvation (1 John 3:7, 1 Corinthians 6:9, 1 Corinthians 15:33, Galatians 6:7, Ephesians 5:6, 2 Thessalonians 2:3). Paul warns the elect that "The Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils" (1 Timothy 4:1); the time will come when some "shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables" (2 Timothy 4:4). For it's possible for a saved person to commit apostasy, to the ultimate loss of his salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6, 2 Timothy 2:12b).

The beast which comes up out of the earth (Revelation 13:11-16) represents the man who will become the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13). He could currently be a (secretly apostate) cardinal in the Roman Catholic Church, preparing himself to become the next pope. If he becomes the next pope, he could begin his tenure by making a great push for peace and unity between Christianity and Islam. He could say something like: "Why do we fight each other? Are we not all the spiritual children of Abraham and of his God, the one God? Can't we lay aside our foolish, man-made differences of theology, which have done us no good at all, but only brought us hatred and violence, and unite into one religion of Abraham, one religion of peace, based on love for the one God and love for our fellow man? What is more important than this?"

He could be so skillful in elucidating what the moderate Muslims could call "the true, peaceful, loving nature of Islam", that he could be hailed by them worldwide as (in their words) "A Great Imam, come to rescue our beloved Islam from the terrible reputation falsely given to it by the terrorists". In this way, the next pope could come to hold high positions of power in two religions at the same time, which could be symbolized by the two horns of the False Prophet lamb (Revelation 13:11).

This would be similar to how the seven horns of the true-Jesus lamb in Revelation 5:6 could represent the true Jesus holding seven positions of power at the same time (cf. Jesus wearing many crowns at the same time in Revelation 19:12).

The False Prophet's appearing figuratively "like a lamb" (Revelation 13:11) could mean that he will present himself to the world as being a Christian, for Jesus refers to Christians as being figurative "lambs" (John 21:15b, Luke 10:3). Also, Jesus warns Christians against false prophets who falsely present themselves as being "sheep" (Matthew 7:15), meaning falsely present themselves as being Christians, for Christians are figurative "sheep" (Matthew 10:16).

Or the False Prophet could even present himself to the world as being Jesus himself, for Jesus appears figuratively as a lamb in Revelation 5:6. Jesus is also referred to as a figurative lamb 27 other times in the book of Revelation: in Revelation 5:8, Revelation 5:12, Revelation 5:13, Revelation 6:1, Revelation 6:16, Revelation 7:9, Revelation 7:10, Revelation 7:14, Revelation 7:17, Revelation 12:11, Revelation 13:8, Revelation 14:1, Revelation 14:4 (two times), Revelation 14:10, Revelation 15:3, Revelation 17:14 (two times), Revelation 19:7, Revelation 19:9, Revelation 21:9, Revelation 21:14, Revelation 21:22, Revelation 21:23, Revelation 21:27, Revelation 22:1, and Revelation 22:3. Jesus is also referred to as a figurative lamb four other times in the New Testament: in John 1:29, John 1:36, Acts 8:32, and 1 Peter 1:19.

During the Antichrist's 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5,7), even though the world will worship both Lucifer/Satan (the dragon: Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast: Revelation 13:3b-4,8), this won't require that the Antichrist's one-world religion will say that Jesus is evil or turn the world against Jesus. For almost the entire world reveres Jesus, at least as being a good man. The Antichrist could confirm this basic world belief, but simply (in his words) "clarify" that while Jesus is indeed a good man, Jesus himself isn't the Christ or the Son of God (1 John 2:22). No doubt the Antichrist will also deny that Jesus died on the Cross for our sins, as this, just as believing that Jesus is the Christ and the Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36), is one of the core beliefs of the gospel by which people become saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

So what the Antichrist could do is keep the idea of a good Jesus, but strip it of everything by which Jesus saves people from hell. And this wouldn't require that the Antichrist deny a second coming of Jesus. Indeed, the Antichrist and his False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) could even try to employ to their own ends the Biblical prophecy of the second coming of Jesus, as well as the Muslim prophecy which says that the miracle-working prophet Jesus will return bodily from heaven in the last days to bring the whole earth into the worship of the true God. For the False Prophet could claim that he is Jesus, returned to bring the whole earth into the worship of the true God, and he could perform amazing miracles (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof of his claim (cf. John 3:2). (This is one reason why it's so important to know when and how the real Jesus' second coming will happen: Matthew 24:29-31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, Revelation 19:7-20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21.)

Once the False Prophet by his amazing miracles has brought the world under his spell (Revelation 13:13-17, Revelation 19:20), including many Muslims and Christians who may not care much for scriptural dogma but could go wild over his signs and wonders, he could begin to (in his words) "restore to the world the real message which was spoken by me (Jesus) at my first coming, and by the great prophet Mohammed, but which message became corrupted by power-hungry men when they copied and changed the early manuscripts of the Bible and the Koran". He could then gradually initiate the world into the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism (1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4-6), a religion which could have existed since ancient times in some "mystery" cults, and which still exists today in the highest degree of initiation of a worldwide secret society.

The False Prophet could present his miraculously calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof that Lucifer (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) are the true God (Revelation 13:4,8). This would be a counterfeit of how the true prophet Elijah miraculously called fire down from heaven to prove that YHWH is the true God (1 Kings 18:37-39).

The person that the Antichrist will revile is YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36), whom many people mistakenly think of as being (in their words) "the God of only the Old Testament, that cruel and hateful God who ordered people to commit genocide and kill babies (e.g. 1 Samuel 15:3), while Jesus came and preached love for everyone (Matthew 5:44)".

The truth is that Jesus confirmed that the God of the Old Testament, YHWH (Deuteronomy 6:4-5, Leviticus 19:18), is the same as the God of the New Testament (Mark 12:29-31). Jesus died for our sins in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy (Isaiah 53, cf. 1 Peter 2:24), and rose from the dead in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy (Psalms 16:10, cf. Acts 2:31). He died to establish the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28) which YHWH had foretold in the Old Testament (Jeremiah 31:31-34). And Jesus died to bring about the defeat of Satan (Hebrews 2:14) which YHWH had foretold in the Old Testament from its first book, Genesis (Genesis 3:15).

Nonetheless, building on many people's misconceptions of YHWH as being (in their words) "the cruel God of the Old Testament", no doubt one of the Antichrist's chief blasphemies against YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36) will be that YHWH is an evil god. This is one of the ancient blasphemies of Gnosticism, another being the antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The world will be deceived into completely rejecting YHWH and worshipping Satan and the Antichrist instead (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9). Satan could be worshipped not as "Satan", which most everyone sees as a bad name (it means "Adversary"), but as "Lucifer" (Isaiah 14:12), which means "the morning star". The Antichrist could lie and say that it's YHWH who is the true "Satan", the true "Adversary" of mankind.

Because the Antichrist and his False Prophet (possibly masquerading as Jesus) will deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22) and will deny that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3), and because they will bring the world into the worship of Lucifer instead (Revelation 13:4), they could say that (the non-flesh) Lucifer is the Christ, that the new name of Christ (Revelation 3:12c) is "Lucifer Christ". For just as "Lucifer" means "the morning star", so Christ is the morning star (Revelation 22:16b). Also, Christ identified himself with the serpent (John 3:14), and Lucifer (the devil) is the serpent (Revelation 12:9). Also, Christ said "Ye are gods" (John 10:34), and it was the serpent who said "ye shall be as gods" (Genesis 3:5).

The truth is that Lucifer fell from his office of morning star (Isaiah 14:12) and became Satan (cf. Luke 10:18); Jesus the Christ has taken over the office of morning star (Revelation 22:16). And Jesus the Christ identified himself with only the brass serpent on the pole in Numbers 21:8-9 (John 3:14), which typified Jesus the Christ's crucifixion for our sins (John 19:16, Matthew 26:28). And in John 10:34, Jesus the Christ (John 20:31) was quoting YHWH in Psalms 82:6-7, which shows that even though humans have the knowledge of good and evil as gods do (Genesis 3:22), they will still die like humans (Psalms 82:7), contradicting the serpent's lie (Genesis 3:4).

Nonetheless, the Antichrist could falsely say that Lucifer is the Christ and the true and beneficent God of mankind, and that the False Prophet is the miracle-working prophet Jesus (John 3:2, Acts 3:22-24), returned to point the world to the true Christ/God. The Antichrist could falsely say that he (the Antichrist) is the human/divine Son of Lucifer, who must be worshipped as God along with Lucifer (Revelation 13:4,8). This would be similar to how Biblical Christians now rightly worship the human/divine Jesus Christ (John 1:1,14) as God (the Son) along with God the Father (John 20:28, Hebrews 1:8).

Near the end of the coming tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer (the dragon), the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13), and these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the armies of the world to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) in an attempt to fight and defeat YHWH himself (Revelation 16:14). After gathering together at Armageddon, all the armies will then travel south and pillage Jerusalem, right before the real Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:20-20:3).

So the second coming of Jesus Christ will be a total shock to the unsaved people of the world. They will have been expecting to wage war against only what they will consider to be (in their words) "that cruel Old Testament god, YHWH", and expecting to wage war against him with the help of the good Jesus (played by the False Prophet) and with the help of the true and beneficent Christ/God (played by Lucifer) and with the help of the good Son of God (played by the Antichrist) and with the help of the good angels of God (played by the fallen angels of Lucifer: Revelation 12:9b). But then instead of some evil god appearing in the sky, the world could see the glorious sign of the Cross (cf. Matthew 24:30), the symbol of the good YHWH dying for our sins (Acts 20:28b). And then the world will see the glorious appearance of the real Jesus (Matthew 24:30b, Revelation 1:7), sitting on a white horse descending from the sky (Revelation 19:11).

"Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus" (Revelation 22:20). "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come" (Revelation 22:17).

When the unsaved people of the world realize, the moment they see the real Jesus returning, how thoroughly they have been duped (by the devil, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet), and when they see in the sky all the holy, mighty angels (Matthew 25:31, 2 Thessalonians 1:7) of the true Christ, the true Son of God, and the good YHWH, who are all the one and the same Jesus Christ of Nazareth, the unsaved people of the world could utterly mourn and wail for themselves (Matthew 24:30, Revelation 1:7), knowing in their spirits that Jesus has returned in wrath to destroy most of them for their unrepentant sins (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9, Revelation 19:15).

 

[Bible2]

eclipsenow said in post #35:

You're already beginning to change the basic gospel.

The basic gospel is that in order for us to be saved we must believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ, the human/divine Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36, 1 John 2:23), and that he died on the Cross for our sins and rose from the dead on the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 24:46-47, Matthew 20:19, Matthew 26:28).

But note that the Bible doesn't teach OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved). Instead, the Bible shows that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only "if" they continue in the faith unto the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23), and there's no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to depart from the faith, to no longer believe, to commit apostasy (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, 2 Timothy 4:3-4, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Hebrews 3:12, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6, 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, even if they do continue in the faith, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also patiently continue unto the end in obedience and good works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Philippians 2:12b, 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Revelation 22:14, 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14, 1 John 2:17b) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), and there's no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Also, even if they do continue in faith and good works, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also continue to repent from every sin that they might commit unto the end (Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 7:22-23, Galatians 5:19-21), and there's no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to commit unrepentant sin, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Luke 12:45-46, 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13, 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus Christ's death for our sins (Mark 16:16, 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38), and there's no assurance that all initially saved people will choose to do that (cf. Acts 22:16a).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they partake of the divine flesh and blood of communion (John 6:53, Matthew 26:26-28, 1 Corinthians 10:16, 1 Corinthians 11:27-30), and there's no assurance that all initially saved people will choose to do that (cf. John 6:60,66).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they forgive others (Matthew 6:14-15), and there's no assurance that all initially saved people will choose to do that (Matthew 18:21-35).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do all that they can (Romans 12:18) to be reconciled to everyone whom they've ever wronged and who could still be holding a grudge against them (Matthew 5:23-26, cf. Acts 24:16), and there's no assurance that all initially saved people will choose to do that.

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they help Christians in need (Matthew 25:34-46), and there's no assurance that initially saved people will always choose to do that.

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they provide for their families (1 Timothy 5:8), and there's no assurance that initially saved people will always choose to do that.

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't commit the unforgivable sin, which is blaspheming the Holy Spirit (Mark 3:29). An example of blaspheming the Holy Spirit is saying that an act performed by the power of the Holy Spirit (e.g. Matthew 12:28a) is performed by Satan (Mark 3:22-30). There's no assurance that initially saved people will never choose to say that (cf. 1 Corinthians 14:39b, 1 Thessalonians 5:19).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't remove words from the text of the book of Revelation and then publish the altered text as if it were the original, without repentance (Revelation 22:19). There's no assurance that initially saved people will never choose to do that (cf. 2 Corinthians 4:2).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't worship the Antichrist and his image, and receive his mark on their forehead or hand (Revelation 14:9-12). There's no assurance that initially saved people will never choose to do that (1 Timothy 4:1).

Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they continue in God's goodness unto the end (Romans 11:20-22), and there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (Luke 12:45-46).

Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they overcome unto the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26), and there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (Revelation 21:7-8).

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All this is said not to engender any unhealthy fear in believers, but the healthy fear which all believers are supposed to have (e.g. Romans 11:20-22).

Believers are commanded to fear God (1 Peter 2:17, Luke 12:5, Hebrews 12:28-29, 2 Corinthians 7:1, Ephesians 5:21, Acts 9:31). They must remain in fear of being cut off the same as unbelievers if they don't continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46). They must work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b, 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8), knowing the terror of the coming judgment of believers (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), at the second coming of Jesus, when some believers will end up losing their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8).

Satan would love to deceive us into not having this fear of God, for he knows that it's the lack of a fear of God which keeps people in wickedness (Psalms 36:1, Psalms 10:13), and that it's by the fear of God that people depart from wickedness (Proverbs 16:6b, Proverbs 14:27, Proverbs 3:7). And Satan can make his deceptions appear as if they're on the side of good (2 Corinthians 11:14), when in fact his deceptions reject the sound doctrine of the Bible (1 Timothy 4:1, 2 Timothy 4:3-4) when the entire Bible is taken into consideration, instead of taking just a verse by itself and trying to misapply it (e.g. Matthew 4:6).

Some believers mistakenly think that they shouldn't have any fear of God, because they misunderstand, for example, 1 John 4:18 and 2 Timothy 1:7.

It's only if saved people perfectly love God that they won't misbehave (1 John 5:3, John 14:21-24) and so won't have any fear of any impending punishment from God for any misbehavior (1 John 4:18). But if they become so wicked that they lose all their fear of God (Psalms 36:1, Psalms 10:13), and so continue to misbehave without any repentance, then they do need to fear impending punishment from God in the form of a temporal chastisement (Hebrews 12:6). And if they refuse to repent even after receiving temporal chastisement (Revelation 3:19, Revelation 2:21), then they need to fear God's ability to ultimately cast them into hell (Luke 12:5) for their unrepentant misbehavior (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46).

When 2 Timothy 1:7 says that God hasn't given believers the spirit of fear, the original Greek word (deilia, G1167) means "timidity", and the context means that believers aren't to be timid before men (cf. Proverbs 28:1) out of some shame about the gospel (2 Timothy 1:8a) or out of some fear of suffering affliction from men for preaching the gospel (2 Timothy 1:8b, Luke 12:4, Hebrews 13:6).

So 2 Timothy 1:7 means that God hasn't given believers the spirit of the fear of men (Proverbs 29:25, Matthew 10:28a). God has given believers the Spirit of the fear of God (Matthew 10:28b, Isaiah 11:2, Romans 11:20-22, Philippians 2:12b, 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 12:28-29, 2 Corinthians 7:1, 1 Peter 2:17, Ephesians 5:21, Acts 9:31). But believers can nonetheless wrongly employ their free will to quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), and so they can wrongly lose their fear of God (Romans 11:20-22).

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All this is said not to engender any despair in believers, but the healthy, close-clinging to the person of Jesus Christ himself, which all believers must continue in (John 15:4-6). For while God makes it possible for initially saved people to do the right thing (Philippians 2:13) toward their ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Philippians 2:12b, Matthew 7:21), this is only possible so long as they continue to abide in Jesus Christ; on their own, apart from Jesus, they can't do anything good (John 15:4-5).

Also, it should be pointed out that Jesus isn't a hard taskmaster; he won't ever give believers more work to do for him than they can easily bear (Matthew 11:28-30). So if believers ever get stressed out that Jesus is asking them to do too much, it's not Jesus asking them to do whatever is stressing them out (cf. Luke 10:40-42). They need to take a step back and ask Jesus to show them what particular work he is actually asking them as individuals to do (Mark 13:34, Romans 12:6-8).

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Also, with regard to the ideas of initial salvation and ultimate salvation, it should be pointed out that they don't have to be explicitly referred to in scripture as "initial salvation" and "ultimate salvation" in order for them to be true and supported by scripture, just as, for example, the ideas of the unity of God and the Trinity don't have to be explicitly referred to in scripture as "the unity" and "the Trinity" in order for them to be true and supported by scripture.

In the Bible itself, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is by faith without works (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:1-5), whereas ultimate salvation is by both faith and works of faith (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Philippians 2:12b, 2 Corinthians 5:9, 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14, Hebrews 5:9, Revelation 22:14) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law).

Also, in the Bible itself, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is the salvation that Christians have now (Ephesians 2:5) in their mortal physical bodies, whereas ultimate salvation is that salvation which is ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5) and is always drawing nearer (Romans 13:11b), that salvation which Christians are still hoping for (1 Thessalonians 5:8b, Romans 8:23-25, Mark 10:30b) and which Jesus Christ will bring to obedient Christians at his second coming (Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 5:9), when he will resurrect or change their mortal physical bodies into immortal physical bodies (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16) just like the immortal physical body he obtained at his resurrection (Philippians 3:20-21, Luke 24:39, 1 John 3:2, Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:11-14).

Initial salvation, being born again (John 3:3,7, 1 Peter 1:23-25, 1 Peter 2:2), is both present salvation and a contract for ultimate salvation, just as the birth of an infant is both present life and a contract for life as an adult. Just as children can know that they're actually alive, so initially saved people can know that they're actually saved. And just as an infant can't "give back" his being born, so a born again person can't "give back" his being born again, his being initially saved. But just as there's no assurance that children will reach adulthood, so there's no assurance that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation. Just as there are conditions placed on children, like not running into traffic and not drinking the Drano under the sink, if they're to reach adulthood, so there are conditions placed on the born-again, the initially saved, if they're to obtain ultimate salvation (which conditions were listed at the start of this post).

 

[Bible2]

eclipsenow said in post #35:

. . . show me where the BIBLE says to use Gematria

The "wisdom" given in Revelation 13:18 is that 666 is the number of the Antichrist's name (Revelation 13:17c-18), and the "understanding" referred to in Revelation 13:18 as being required to properly "count", to add up, the number of his name, is having an understanding of gematria, which scripture itself employs with the three Greek letters at the very end of Revelation 13:18 (in the original Greek Textus Receptus), and which scriptural gematria, sadly, many Christians today are either completely unaware of, or, even if they know about it, they simply refuse to employ it, mistakenly thinking that it's occult numerology/divination.

There are some verses in the Bible where in order to for us to understand them properly today we need to recover the common extra-Biblical knowledge that people back in Bible times already had without the Bible having to give it to them.

For example, when Revelation 6:6 says "A measure of wheat for a penny", the original Greek says a "choinix" of wheat for a "denarion", but the Bible doesn't explain how big a measure a choinix is or how much money a denarion is. For back when Revelation 6:6 was written, those who knew Greek already knew how big a measure a choinix was and how much money a denarion was. But today we need to go to extra-Biblical sources to recover the knowledge that a denarion was a full day's wages, and that a choinix was probably about a quart. So Revelation 6:6 is saying that food will be so expensive that someone will have to work an entire day just to be able to buy a quart of wheat. But without going to extra-Biblical sources to properly understand Revelation 6:6, we could read the KJV of that verse and go away with completely the wrong idea: that food will be so cheap we will be able buy a measure of wheat for just a penny.

Just as the translators of the words of the Greek scriptures into English had to learn from men what those Greek words meant before they could translate them into English, so translators of Revelation 13:18 in the original Greek Textus Receptus had to learn from men that the last three Greek letters in that verse stand for three different numbers, according to the rules of gematria, and that those numbers have to be added together, again according to the rules of gematria, before the translators could properly translate those three different Greek letters into the number 666.

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eclipsenow said in post #35:

I mean, as IF John knew English

As was pointed out in post #34, in Revelation 13:17c-18, John the apostle used the ancient Greek alphabet only because it was the most common alphabet used by believers at the time the book of Revelation was written. Today, the most common alphabet used by believers is the English alphabet, insofar as English is the current lingua franca of the world. So the numerical values of the letters in the Antichrist's name will most likely add up to 666 in the English alphabet.

The whole purpose of Revelation 13:17c-18 is to facilitate for believers, not to make difficult for them, the identification of a certain man as possibly being the Antichrist. If the letters in his name had to be transliterated into the ancient Greek alphabet, this would vitiate this purpose, for almost all believers today wouldn't know how to properly perform the transliteration (as God himself would perform it), and different believers would no doubt come up with variant, competing transliterations, and therefore would arrive at variant, competing numbers for the name of the certain man in question.

If Christians think that someone is the Antichrist, they need to check and make sure that his name adds up to 666 (Revelation 13:17c-18). If it doesn't, then he isn't the Antichrist, and they need to keep on looking out for the real Antichrist. If it does add up to 666, then he could be the Antichrist, and they need to be especially wary of him and not be taken in by any deceptive charisma, intelligence or amazing deeds that he might display. But even if someone's name adds up to 666, this doesn't mean that he's definitely the Antichrist, for just by chance there could be more than one person in the world whose name adds up to 666.

The Antichrist also has to come from a country the territory of which used to be part of one of the four Diadochian Greek kingdoms which succeeded the Greek Empire of Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:8-9,21-25). These four kingdoms stretched from Greece over to Iran, and down into Egypt. So the Antichrist will probably come from the Middle East. He could be an Arab who will come from Lebanon, from the modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:4), and have a name like (for example) "Nabil Abdullah Falakal al-Hakim", which adds up to 666.

But if a man from the Middle East has a name which adds up to 666, even this doesn't assure that he's the Antichrist. For the Antichrist also has to sit in a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15, Revelation 11:1-2). Once he does that, there won't be any room for doubt about whether or not he's the Antichrist; his identity will have been definitely revealed (2 Thessalonians 2:3b-4).

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eclipsenow said in post #35:

. . . if you read the mark literally, is the REST of Revelation "literal"?

Parts of Revelation are literal and parts are symbolic, just as, for example, parts of Revelation 5:6 are literal (the throne of God in heaven, the four beasts, the 24 elders, Jesus having been slain, the seven Spirits of God, the earth) and parts of Revelation 5:6 are symbolic (Jesus being a Lamb, Jesus having seven horns, Jesus having seven eyes).

Also, it should be pointed out that Revelation 1:1b doesn't mean that Jesus in Revelation chapters 6-18 is expressing the future events of the tribulation only through symbolic images, instead of almost entirely indicating those events literally. For just as the original Greek word (deiknuo: G1166) translated as "show" in Revelation 1:1a doesn't have to refer to something being shown through symbolic images, but can refer to something being shown literally (e.g. Matthew 8:4), so also the original Greek word (semaino: G4591) translated as "signified" in Revelation 1:1b doesn't have to refer to something being indicated through symbolic images, but can refer to something being indicated literally (e.g. Acts 25:27).

Revelation is an unsealed book (Revelation 22:10), meaning that it shouldn't be difficult for Christians to understand it if they simply read it as it's written: chronologically and almost entirely literally. The few parts of it that are symbolic are almost always explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 1:20, Revelation 17:9-12), and the few symbols in Revelation that aren't explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 13:2) are usually explained elsewhere in the Bible (e.g. Daniel 7:4-7,17).

 

[eclipsenow]

1. The mark of the beast.

You have no biblical evidence for using Gematrial numbers.
You gave no biblical evidence for Android Anti-Christs.
You gave no biblical evidence for your discussion about microchips.
You gave no biblical evidence for scarification.
You gave no biblical evidence for what to do about Christians who are FORCED (in your scenario) to get a tattoo on their head under restraints and / or drugs.
You gave no biblical evidence for why we should read ANY of Revelation in the future, apart, of course, from the glorious return of Jesus on Judgement Day.

And you wrote too much speculative science fiction about your 'Android Anti-Christ'. I basically stopped reading after the 5th paragraph and just speed-scanned for keywords the rest of it. Too many words sharing nothing but your own and Science Fiction ideas. Can I suggest that you *never* put up multiple posts? Keep it short and sweet. Because I didn't bother with your entire 2nd post. Just so much irrelevant stuff that didn't bother to answer my questions. I'll have a conversation with you, but I'm not your disciple and you're no guru. I'm not going to sit at your feet and say "Yes Master".

2. Challenging "Once saved always saved".

Your 3rd post challenged "Perseverance of the Saints". While the verses you quoted emphasise how Christians do *have* to keep trusting the Lord until the end of their lives, you ignored all the other verses Calvin quotes that show true Christians *will* persevere to the end. We are required to, and we do. That's the work of the Holy Spirit. But I'm not going to debate Calvinism with you; you can go to another sub-forum for that. This is eschatology. I was just pointing out how silly and paranoid it is to believe someone could rob you of your ETERNAL salvation by sticking a tattoo on your forehead against your will!

3. Gematria and the number of the beast

Hmm. Nice try, but you failed to show any instance of the bible telling us to use Gematria. Instead, you vaguely assert that we are to play number games with the English language. Problem is, English came from a number of European languages including Latin. So, let me see, this verse was no good for anyone who spoke Latin because it was intended to be interpreted by the English? What about Middle-English? Oh, no, silly me! Of course. This whole BOOK hasn't really had anything to say to Christians for the last 2000 years because it's all about OUR generation! It's all about how special WE are and OUR times are and how clever WE have to be playing number games with English.

Except, what if the Lord doesn't return for generations and we find China's won some terrible war and everyone now speaks Chinese? Gematria with Chinese symbols? ;-) Nice try.

Putting aside all this silliness: you've totally missed what the verse actually says. It's a failure of basic comprehension. The verse says to calculate a NUMBER, not a name!

"18 This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man.[e] That number is 666."

You are meant to calculate the NUMBER, to think about it, to conclude something about the NUMBER! It does not even ask you to come up with a name!

So what is that number about? Keep in mind that the footnote to the NIV [e] says "Or is humanity’s number".

Man was created on the Sixth Day.
Man works six days.

Just as the Hebrews use threefold repetition to indicate importance, such as "Holy Holy Holy" instead of writing "Extremely holy!", here the number is repeated 3 times to show that this is mankind trying to impersonate the trinity (777). That's all.

4. What about the Mark of the Lord?
If the Mark of the Beast is a literal scarification of the forehead, is the Mark of the Lord? No one promoting a literal mark on the head seems to continue reading over into Chapter 14. Let's put the end of 13 right next to the beginning of 14 and see how we go.

///"The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. 16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, 17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.

18 This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man.[e] That number is 666. "

Chapter 14.

1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. ///

Are you saying I'm not saved if I don't have a literal mark on my forehead? See, the 144,000 is again a number to figure the meaning of, not a silly Gematria number letter game to play!

144,000 =
The 12 tribes of Israel
multiplied by 12 Apostles (the new kingdom of God)
multiplied by 1000 (the number of completeness).
Together this number's meaning is that rather than being a rather small gathering of God's people, it is the FULL and COMPLETE people of God. All that in a number hey? Helps if we keep JEWISH number symbolism in mind and don't go running off after our own system.

So again, the FULL and complete people of God have a mark on their heads. I think I'm a Christian. Where's my mark?

By the way, since when did God have Seven Spirits of God? Why is that literal! I thought there was only 1 Holy Spirit!

///Revelation is an unsealed book (Revelation 22:10)///
Revelation is the mystery of the ages unveiled, the great prophetic apocalyptic imagery of Daniel unveiled. Revealed. But it is revealed through symbolism. It is most definitely not literal, and to try reading it literally is to do damage to the text. It is without a doubt the most symbolic book of the bible and practically everything in it is bible symbolism. To try and read it literally is to miss the *literary* clues and inferences from the rest of the bible.