Real Marriage: The Truth About Sex, Friendship, and Life Together

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LinkH

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Purity Pharisee. . . Driscoll has come out many times telling unmarried couples to avoid physical intimacies that they are not instructed to avoid in the bible. Things such as kissing. If its not in the bible but you are teaching people like it is a command. You are a pharisee.

I haven't heard this bit of Driscoll's teaching. I've only seen a number of clips of Q&A and other teachings on YouTube. I'd agree with you that if a pastor wants to encourage not kissing, etc. he should say he is discouraging it, and not teach it as commands.

But it seems like you have invented your own personal definition of 'Pharisee.' That is not how the term is used in the Bible, and the Pharisees of Jesus' day probably would not have had Driscoll as a part of their group, either.

The Bible does say, "It is good for a man not to touch a woman." That shows up in a passage about sex, but in Judaism some segments have taken it quite literally for quite a long time.

Btw, Paul said he was a Pharisee after his conversion, as were several other people in the church.


Telling men to man up and listing off 300 things, 295 of which arn't found in the bible that you must do to be a "real man".

Its been pointed out many times that Christians telling men to man up is essetitally the same as encouraging them to please women and not to please God.
I am not familiar with the sermon. But it seems like you throw the word 'cult' around a bit too freely. If you were a bit more moderate and specific in your criticisms instead of name-calling like you did in the previous post, your criticisms might seem a bit more credible.

Nope. . . just manlyness cultists and purity pharisee's like Driscoll. I'm also not a fan of those who call themselves brothers but are power hungry, will not take criticism, and have no humility what so ever. Driscoll fits all 3 of these as well. He has excommunicated other pastors from Mars Hill for daring to be critical of the direction he is taking the church.

He wants his church to center around him and no one else. That is why all of the Mars Hill churchs all tune into him for the sermon. The leaders of most churchs, try to shepard the pastors and administrativly lead their churchs, not try to make sure everyone in the church listens to THEIR sermons.
I don't know enough about his ministry or church to comment. He had some good things to say in the clips I saw.


For the record, I do like to occasionally play video games, and yes my wife does work. . . and those things arn't banned in the bible. Because Jesus unlike Driscoll doesn't pigeonhole people into being only 1 way. He gives commands, sets out an attitude to live by and you are free to be yourself.
I don't see how preachers can argue that it is sin for women to work outside the home considering Psalm 31.

And just for the record. . . I also work full time and I'm far from addicted or anything close to addicted to video games or really anything. Of course in Driscoll's mind those things are not really possible. You are either addicted to video games or you don't play them at all.
I'm not familiar with the sermon you are talking about. It does seem this is very personal for you. I have played a few online strategy games myself. It can be an addiction, or it can be an occasional thing.

I can't stand pharisee's like Driscoll. . . I guess they are an off branch of the pietist movement.
A branch off the Pietist movement? That is a very Lutheran-centric way of interpreting things.
 
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LinkH

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Its not going to work like that. Artifically keeping couples from all forms of physical intimacy (which is NOT commanded by the bible) and then suddenly expecting them to take up all forms of physical intimacy upon marriage is what is causeing couples to have intimacy problems upon marriage.

Do you have any evidence for the idea that people who don't kiss or fornicate before marriage have more intimacy issues than couples who do kiss but do not fornicate before marriage? It seems really unlikely to me. There have been numerous arranged marriages without premarital kissing throughout history that did not end in divorce.

Even if Driscol goes too far with his advice on showing affection, why would abstaining from this type of affection before marriage hurt it afterward?
 
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LinkH

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Did you hear what he said after it was revealed that Ted Haggard was gay? He essentially blamed his wife for "letting herself go" for Ted Haggard's homosexuality.

Local News | Pastor's apology defuses demonstration at church | Seattle Times Newspaper

The quotes about Driscoll not listening to the elders sounded pretty incriminating. But this article doesn't seem to back up what you are saying.

The article you cite does not prove that he blamed Ted Haggard's wife. The quote was,
""It is not uncommon to meet pastors' wives who really let themselves go," Driscoll wrote on a personal blog. "A wife who lets herself go and is not sexually available to her husband ... is not responsible for her husband's sin, but she may not be helping him either.""

The quote did not say anything about Ted Haggard's wife, and the article did not say that it did. Did you read the actual original blog post?
 
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sdmsanjose

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By sdmsanjose
How could you miss this point as I even mentioned it twice in one paragraph! I like the message of “ follow Jesus and seek to do something that counts” so if that is your interpretation of “…itching ears who like what he says then he's good” then I am proud of my itching ears.

Reply by Luther
So Ultimate fighting which Mark has admitted he's a big fan of is something that counts?

Just because someone plays a video game doesn't mean they arn't following Jesus and seeking to do something that counts.

But then again Mark's hobbies are cool and manly. . . All other hobbies are stupid, so says the great Mark Driscoll.

QUOTING MARK DRISCOLL: She [the wife] says, “I’ve never performed oral sex on my husband. I’ve refused to.” I said, “You need to go home and tell your husband that you’ve met Jesus and you’ve been studying the Bible, and that you’re convicted of a terrible sin in your life. And then you need to drop his trousers, and you need to serve your husband. And when he asks why, say, ‘Because I’m a repentant woman. God has changed my heart and I’m supposed to be a biblical wife.’” She says, “Really?” I said, “Yeah. First Peter 3 says if your husband is an unbeliever to serve him with deeds of kindness.” [Laughter from audience] How many men would agree, that is a deed of kindness. He doesn’t want tracts. Those won’t do anything. What we’re talking about here could really help.

So the wife that doesn't give sufficent OS is sinning. Wow and you know I thought that OS was a nice but not something that was biblically commanded. Leave it to Mark to find a biblical commandment for OS.





Luther

I guess you just don’t get it. I have not been addressing Mark’s videos or his position on Ultimate fighting or sex; yet you keep bringing up those subjects in response to my posts.

Maybe Mark is is bad as you claim on those subjects I just do not know and have not addressed any of those topics, so why do you keep posting those topics that do not relate to my posts?

Someone said on another post to you t that you are taking Mrak’s ministry very personal. I think you maybe overreacting a bit. One of the reasons that I think that is what you have said about Mark in this thread




Quotes of Luther:

Driscoll is a purity Pharisee

I'm also not a fan of those who call themselves brothers but are power hungry, will not take criticism, and have no humility what so ever. Driscoll fits all 3 of these as well

Also Driscoll is a flat out liar.

The man is a complete fraud if you ask me

maybe the faith would have been better off if hypermasculine, posturing, poorly trained, egotistical, and unqualified preachers like him didn't preach it would be for the best.


Luther, saying those things about a brother, even if he is off base on some topics, does not sound very Christian like and you sound a little bitter and resentful.
 
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Autumnleaf

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sdmsanjose

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Originally Posted by sdmsanjose

Luther, saying those things about a brother, even if he is off base on some topics, does not sound very Christian like and you sound a little bitter and resentful.


Christ called people out when they weren't walking the walk.

As for the truth about sex, friendship and married life together...

Luther is not Christ
 
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Luther073082

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Luther

I guess you just don’t get it. I have not been addressing Mark’s videos or his position on Ultimate fighting or sex; yet you keep bringing up those subjects in response to my posts.

Maybe Mark is is bad as you claim on those subjects I just do not know and have not addressed any of those topics, so why do you keep posting those topics that do not relate to my posts?

Someone said on another post to you t that you are taking Mrak’s ministry very personal. I think you maybe overreacting a bit. One of the reasons that I think that is what you have said about Mark in this thread




Quotes of Luther:

Driscoll is a purity Pharisee

I'm also not a fan of those who call themselves brothers but are power hungry, will not take criticism, and have no humility what so ever. Driscoll fits all 3 of these as well

Also Driscoll is a flat out liar.

The man is a complete fraud if you ask me

maybe the faith would have been better off if hypermasculine, posturing, poorly trained, egotistical, and unqualified preachers like him didn't preach it would be for the best.


Luther, saying those things about a brother, even if he is off base on some topics, does not sound very Christian like and you sound a little bitter and resentful.


Perhaps I could be off on the purity pharisee but the other statements are true.

Driscoll is power hungry, will not take critcism, and has no humility. He singlehandedly excommunicated 2 elders who where critical of his plans to center the church's power in himself.

Driscoll is a liar. . . Driscoll repeatedly claims that Martin Luther agreed with his theology but anyone who's done any in depth study of Luther shows otherwise.

The man is fraud . . . Any pastor who often speaks without thinking and calls other people's hobbies stupid while admitting to enjoying ultimate fighting, AND kicks people out of the church for being critical of his plans to concentrate power in himself is a FRAUD of a preacher.

The faith would be better off without him. I certainly think so. His actions push 10 people away for every 1 it brings in.
 
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LinkH

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Driscoll repeatedly claims that Martin Luther agreed with his theology but anyone who's done any in depth study of Luther shows otherwise.

You'd have to provide some context for this quote. It would be pretty stupid for anyone to agree with 100% of Luther's theology. He probably had something specific in mind. If you studied enough, you'd probably find something Luther said that you disagreed with, unless you consider his writings to be holy scripture.
 
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Autumnleaf

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You'd have to provide some context for this quote. It would be pretty stupid for anyone to agree with 100% of Luther's theology. He probably had something specific in mind. If you studied enough, you'd probably find something Luther said that you disagreed with, unless you consider his writings to be holy scripture.

Aside from his advice in dealing with Jews, I'd say Martin Luther was a pretty solid guy.
 
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Luther073082

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You'd have to provide some context for this quote. It would be pretty stupid for anyone to agree with 100% of Luther's theology. He probably had something specific in mind. If you studied enough, you'd probably find something Luther said that you disagreed with, unless you consider his writings to be holy scripture.

From Wikipedia

Driscoll denies the orthodox Calvinist view of Limited Atonement and believes instead that Jesus died for all people in some sense, and for some people (the elect) in another sense.[10] He thinks this position was what John Calvin believed, saying in a humorous tone: 'Calvinism came after Calvin... I will argue that the Calvinists are not very Calvin. I will argue against Calvinism with Calvin... What kind of Calvinist are you? I'm a Calvin, not a Calvinist, that came later'.[10] Driscoll also believes that this position (or slight variations thereof) was held by men like Charles Spurgeon, John Bunyan, Martin Luther, and Richard Baxter.

And for the record I can't think of anything that I disagree with Luther on theologically speaking. (That is when Luther finalized his theology. You can find some writings back when he was a Catholic monk that where obviously in support of the Roman Catholic Positions.) And I have studied fairly throughly.

Now Luther especially late in his life had some extreme political positions which I can't agree with.
 
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LinkH

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And for the record I can't think of anything that I disagree with Luther on theologically speaking. (That is when Luther finalized his theology. You can find some writings back when he was a Catholic monk that where obviously in support of the Roman Catholic Positions.) And I have studied fairly throughly.

Now Luther especially late in his life had some extreme political positions which I can't agree with.

I did have in mind the face that his views, like everyone else's change over time.

Some of those political position were entwined with his theology, like his position on the Jews.

Do you know the context of the Driscoll quote?

Btw, it reminds me of the Marx quote, "I am not a Marxist."
 
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Bella Vita

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I was told by a professional male counselor (who works with sex offenders) that the demand for BJ's and/or anal sex is symptomatic of inappropriate content use. So this generation of young men steeped in inappropriate content is going to be using the book as a sledghammer to bust through their wives' reservations "see, MD says it's good!"

I'm afraid young naive christian wives are going to be sexually abused as a result of MD's book. Once you invite the Lust monster in, it can take a long long time and much pain before it is evicted...


You do know that oral sex is in scripture right? It is ok for a husband and wife to have oral sex and is talked about in Song Of Songs. No couples don't have to do it if they don't want to but there is nothing wrong with it if they do want to.
 
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LinkH

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You do know that oral sex is in scripture right? It is ok for a husband and wife to have oral sex and is talked about in Song Of Songs. No couples don't have to do it if they don't want to but there is nothing wrong with it if they do want to.


I don't find the argument for this convincing. Arabic may have used the word for 'naval' as a euphemism for a certain part of the female anatomy, but that doesn't prove that a Hebrew cognate word would be used in the same way.
 
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Luther073082

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You do know that oral sex is in scripture right? It is ok for a husband and wife to have oral sex and is talked about in Song Of Songs. No couples don't have to do it if they don't want to but there is nothing wrong with it if they do want to.

Well according to that quote. . . women have to do it, even if they don't want to. And they are sinning if they don't.
 
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k450ofu3k-gh-5ipe

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Ultimate fighter Jesus FTW!!!

tough-jesus.jpg



... :sorry:

Oh man, I don't like it when juice goes through my nose :(. And my keyboard needs to now be cleaned...

Thanks for the laugh, though:D
 
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k450ofu3k-gh-5ipe

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His statements speak for themselves. . .

I have listened to a few minutes of his sermons before I was throughly angry at him and decided to stop watching.

I don't play video games because I want to leave a legacy, be on a team, go to a war, defeat and enemy, or save a non existent princesses. (Women arn't princesses just because they are women, in fact unless you are a real princess, you really shouldn't call yourself that because I find it rather insulting.)

I play video games because its something for me that I enjoy. Its a non serious way to excersise my mind, and its far more entertaining then doing something like doing math problems for the fun of it. Just like Mark Driscoll apparently enjoys ulimate fighting. The only difference is in my hobby. . . no one gets hurt. In his someone always gets hurt.

I don't cheer for violence, I don't like to see people get beat up. . . Mark apparently does.

No the bible is about God's relationship for humanity and his ultimate saving act redeeming them to himself. Not fighting, not rescuing a princess, not defeating an enemy, not going to war. The only real enemy that is defeated is sin, death, and Satan and all 3 of those are defeated by Christ alone, not us.

The wars that are in the bible arn't the main point of it at all.

No no Mark Driscoll said video games are stupid period. . . He doesn't say "don't get addicted". . . because you know that could be said about a lot of things. . . gambling, alcohol, sex, just about anything you could get addicted to and its clearly bad.

No Mark ment what he said, the fact that its inconvient for you has no point in the matter.

Instead of trying to make up what you would like to think Mark ment, why don't you address the comments as he stated them.

What are his main points? Too many effeminate preachers out there? Not enough guys want to get into a mixed martial arts steel cage match? His main point is that the only real men in this world are Mark Driscoll and people who act and think like Mark Driscoll. Maybe thats why there is a shortage of "real men".

Or Christian enough. Apologizing and attempting to change is a Christian practice. . . not a man practice.

He does promite violence. . . he promotes Mixed Martial Arts, which is a very violent "sport" of almost no holds bar fighting in which the objective is to injure your opponent until he quits due to injury sustained or is knocked out. That is very violent. And Driscoll has admitted he's a big fan.

People who often speak without thinking should not be pastors.

Yet another instance of "lets not worry about what he says. . . if he gets itching ears who like what he says then he's good.

Just because someone can call himself Christian and attract a lot of itching ears, doesn't mean it's God driven.

Pat Robertson had a lot of itching ears listening to him and he's a false prophet.

Actually I don't think thats the problem at all...

I think the problem is that most men do not have the ability by themselves to make enough of an income to give all these "wonderful Christian women" everything that they want. And maybe its also because these Christian women really arn't as wonderful as they are painted to be. They are caught up in commercialism and want to be treated "like a princess".

Word is they arn't actually really princesses though, but just ordinary women who think they are princesses. I'm waiting for Driscoll to inform them of this.

**For the record it took me some time but I did find a Christian wife who does not have delusions of granduer in thinking she's a princess or deserves to be treated like one.**

And their behavior, much like the nominally Christian women who sleep around is counter to the Christian faith. Since when is this a new thing? People seem to think that behavior outside of the Christian faith is some new thing. . . its as old as the hills.

And since when do men who are addicted to video games sleep with any real woman anyways? Seriously, if video game addiction is such a big problem, that tends to prevent men from sleeping with any woman. . . not just getting a wife.

So essentially you paint a picture of a man who a phenom of nature. He doesn't do anything but live in his parent's basement and play video games but somehow manages to get out and gets random women to sleep with him. That is truely impressive.

For the record secular women arn't terribly impressed by video game addictions either.

How do you know they have no responsibilty? Our economy is rough, especially on single people. Both my wife and I lived at home til we where 27 (and we married). Its not because we had no responsibility. . . its not because we didn't have jobs. . . Its because we didn't get paid enough to live on our own. . . And personally I'd take my parents over a roommate any day. I had enough of the roommate thing in college. . . it wasn't horrible, but life is a lot more stable at home.

And what to you is grown up?

See here is the problem. . . Driscoll tells people they are boys because they live at home. But the reason they live at home is because they don't make enough money. Then he tells them to grow up and support a Christian wife. . . who is suppose to stay at home all of the time. Well if they can't live on their own, how can they support a wife by themselves?

Especially a wife who wants things. Lots of things.

And besides perhaps these men are taking their time about marriage because these Christian women are statistically speaking just as likely to divorce them and take half of their things on top of child support and alimony as secular women. (75% of divorce filings come from women.)

Yes its what they should do. . . however how many times does someone have to shoot their mouth off without thinking? If it was one or 2 times it wouldn't be a big deal. But every day Mark is out shooting his mouth off about people manning up.

On top of that since when is people "manning up" the domain of a Christian preacher? See as I remember it a Christian preacher is suppose to preach law and gospel and administer the sacraments. Not wine about things like video games when they arn't sinful.

You see its not the domain of a Christian preacher to decide what hobbies are stupid, and what hobbies are good. It's only their job to teach what is sinful and what is not. See in real churchs you are allowed to have different hobbies from the preacher.

Oh and has Driscoll apologized and welcomed back into membership those people that he kicked out for disagreeing with him about the direction he was taking the church??

For the record that single incident alone is a good enough reason to not listen to Driscoll. Because real pastors deal with dissent, I know I've talked with them. Mark Driscoll throws it out.

Awesome post!
 
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Bella Vita

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Well according to that quote. . . women have to do it, even if they don't want to. And they are sinning if they don't.

He isn't saying they are sinning if they won't so that. he is saying that there is certain respect in pleasing your spouse sexually and to with hold or not do that for a spouse is wrong. The couple needs to have conversations about it they need to know why they don't want to what the fears are ect. and if it is a logical thing then no the husband shouldn't force her. But if she is just not pleasing her husband because they got ina fight or because she doesn't feel like it that is wrong and vice versa. spouses should not withhold sex from one another it is a sin to do so without valid reason.
 
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