Want advice on Church + Bible

Heidiii

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I thought it'd be easier to just make a new thread rather than to continue in the totally out of date one I originally made, as I have a few new questions.

So like, I do spend a lot of time thinking about God (not 100% sure if I'd technically be spending time with Him), and I spend some time reading various quotes from the bible online, but I still haven't decided on a Church. I'll be moving soon, so probably won't start going to Church until I've moved.

But yeah, I want advice on what sort of Church I should be looking for. I want something liberal that respects things like evolution and homosexuality, although particularly for the latter, I'm okay about about it not being encouraged, only that people wouldn't say that there is anything seriously wrong with it (as I have a number of homosexual friends who I have great respect for). And I want to be allowed to love all, even those who have not accepted that they are God's children. One denomination I particularly want to stay away from is Catholicism (I have no problem with those who believe in it, it just isn't for me). If it is useful to anything, I'll be a postgraduate university student next year (in an engineering degree), so would be at a university where there are student groups. So yeah, any advice on denomination, finding a church, other possible things I could do, etc?

Also, what about versions of the Bible? I believe there are a few.

There's a few quotes from the bible that seem strange to me, would it be okay to post a few of them here and get some opinions from actual Christians on them?
 

hedrick

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The standard liberal churches are the "mainline" denominations. Here's Wikipedia's list: Mainline Protestant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. However there are a few other churches that also fit. There is a (small) liberal wing of the evangelical tradition, and some non-denominational churches. Note that denominations aren't uniform. All the denominations listed have conservative churches, and even the Southern Baptists have liberal ones.

The most controversial item on your list is homosexuality. The mainline denominations all allow it except the Methodists, but many local churches and/or regions within those denominations do not.

You should feel free to ask questions. That's one of the major purposes of CF. You should expect to get responses from a variety of positions, with a majority of CF posters (and those who set the moderation policies) being fairly conservative. There's a liberal forum that is supposed to be restricted to people sympathetic to that viewpoint, although it has proven impossible to prevent heckling by unsympathetic posters.

The mainline groups all hold reasonably orthodox theological views, e.g. accepting the Trinity and the divinity of Christ (although they may explain it differently than the traditional creeds). There are some groups beyond those boundaries, such as the Unitarians (some of whom aren't nominally Christian at all) and the Friends (a.k.a. Quakers). I had some experience with Friends worship in college, and find it a very interesting group. They accept that there is an "inner light", but allow quite a range of views on who or what it is. Many (perhaps most) are Christian, but not necessarily orthodox Christian. The more traditional groups have a worship service based on silence. They are particularly known for their peace witness (as are the Mennonites and other "peace churches").

Most of the forums in CF are limited to Christians who accept fairly traditional Christianity, roughly the Nicene Creed. There is, however, an unorthodox forum that does not have that limitation.

About campus ministries: Most universities have them. Typically there are ministries associated with specific denominations, joint ministries, and parachurch organizations. Most campuses will have a ministry either associated with one of the mainline denominations, or a joint ministry. The list of ministries for your campus will normally list the denomination, so that should give you a clue. The parachurch groups include Campus Crusade, Navigators, and Intervarsity. All are conservative, though I think of Intervarsity as the most open. I belonged to Intervarsity in grad school, and thought it was great. But at the time our campus Intervarsity was more broad-minded than most. Indeed the staff member got in trouble for it. We had liberal and conservative Protestants and Catholics, with the local Catholic ministry welcoming everyone (including having open communion). They got in trouble for that. I find it pretty distressing that when a campus ministry tried to welcome and find a place for all Christians, the leaders got in trouble for it. By now the campus has the usual assortment of many organizations, each with its own fairly narrow niche.

As long as you stay away from the very conservative translations such as the New King James, scholarship is good enough that translations generally agree. There are only about a dozen passages where doctrinal considerations tend to lead to differences. Aside from that kind of difference, the major differences are in how literal the translation is, and whether it uses gender-neutral language when the original uses neutral words.

The normal translation used for college courses, and in worship in mainline denominations, is the New Revised Standard. It's a decent translation in the King James tradition (though completely redone from the original languages). it uses the best modern scholarship. I recommend either something like the New Oxford Annotated Bible, or using a separate commentary. There's a lot of background material that you need to understand what is going on, and a study bible or annotated Bible will give you that. The NRSV tries to be fairly readable, but to stick fairly close to the structure of the original. There are much more literal translations, but still, it does try to stick with the structure. If you're willing to abandon that, and translate meaning for meaning, the result is easier to understand. I find that it's best to have the NRSV (if you were more conservative, it would be the NIV or some other evangelical translation) together with a freer translation.

There are more choices for the free translation. I use the TEV, a.k.a. Good News Bible. It was replaced a few years ago by the CEV (Contemporary English Version), which I never liked. The Common English Bible (CEB) is a possible successor. I'm getting used to it, although so far I've stuck with the TEV. I also like the Revised English Bible, but it seems to have disappeared in the mists of time, largely due to a bad job of PR when it was released. For the NT you might consider "The Kingdom New Testament." This is a one-person translation by N T Wright. The other translations are committee translations, which are generally safer. But I really like Wright's translation, particularly for Paul's letters.

I'd suggest that you start by reading one or more of the Gospels. If you don't have a background in Christianity, you should probably read it with an introduction. N T Wright's newest book, "Simply Jesus" looks like a good place to start. My other suggestion is "When Jesus Came to Harvard" by Harvey Cox. Wright's book is more of a scholar's introduction to the current scholarly view of Jesus. Cox's book walks through Jesus life, and has interesting reflections on its significance, and comparisons with beliefs of other religions. It's based on a course he taught at Harvard. If you're interested in broader questions of Christian theology, you'll need to decide how much you want to know. Wright's book "Simply Christian" is one possible introduction to basic Christian ideas, but it doesn't have much about traditional doctrine such as the Trinity. Since a lot of discussions here are about those ideas, you might be better with something by Alister McGrath, either "Theology: The Basics" or if you want a full semester college-level course, "Christian theology: an introduction". (As a grad student, you might be interested to know that McGrath started out in quantum biophysics, and decided he wanted to work on the relationship of science and theology. After getting a Ph.D in his scientific field, he got a second degree in Church History, and wrote really good books on the Protestant Reformation. Finally he's gotten back to his original interest and started to write on science and religion. He's one of the few writers who is equally expert in both.)
 
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elopez

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But yeah, I want advice on what sort of Church I should be looking for. I want something liberal that respects things like evolution and homosexuality, although particularly for the latter, I'm okay about about it not being encouraged, only that people wouldn't say that there is anything seriously wrong with it (as I have a number of homosexual friends who I have great respect for).
I welcome the theory of evolution and I am Catholic. Homosexuality isn't disrespected within the Church in my town, just as you said not encouraged.

And I want to be allowed to love all, even those who have not accepted that they are God's children. One denomination I particularly want to stay away from is Catholicism (I have no problem with those who believe in it, it just isn't for me). If it is useful to anything, I'll be a postgraduate university student next year (in an engineering degree), so would be at a university where there are student groups. So yeah, any advice on denomination, finding a church, other possible things I could do, etc?
What is it about Catholicism that isn't for you if you don't mind me asking? We love all.

Also, what about versions of the Bible? I believe there are a few.
Versions of the Bible are important in some instances, but I can't think of any right now, can you?

There's a few quotes from the bible that seem strange to me, would it be okay to post a few of them here and get some opinions from actual Christians on them?
Like what?
 
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mmksparbud

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In other words, you are looking to fit God into your lifestyle and way of thinking, you are not looking to fit into God's lifestyle and way of thinking???? That is the first question that needs to be answered. You've written down the kind of church you want, you should not have too much trouble finding it. Where it gets hairy, is finding a church that fits into Gods' lifestyle, a church that wants to do what He asks of us.Most people pick a church that they feel comfortable in--like a friend of mine said once--"I just want to find a nice church that doesn't get too serious and that won't make me feel guilty for watching a little inappropriate content!"---Seek and ye shall find. I will repeat the Cain and Abel story--Cain brought to God what he had, the best of his crops to give Him, he wanted to worship God in his own way, with what he had. Abel brought a lamb. Now God was not pleased with Cain's offering, only with Abel's--why??--they were both giving their best to Him. But God had asked for a lamb, and Cain gave Him tomatoes (just figuratively-ok)--It ended up with Cain being so angry at God's approval of Abel that Cain kills him. All Abel was doing was what God asked of him.
Cain did what felt right to Cain. Does it matter what you believe as long as you are worshipping God??---Only to God.
 
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hedrick

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In other words, you are looking to fit God into your lifestyle and way of thinking, you are not looking to fit into God's lifestyle and way of thinking????

This is an ad hominem attack. There are two problems with it:

1) It doesn't prove anything. I can attack anyone's motivations. E.g. I can just as plausibly say that you're sticking with implausible conservative readings of the Bible in order to justify prejudices you have inherited from the red-neck aspects of American culture, and from your church's traditions. But we can do this kind of attack for any position. It has nothing to do with the truth of the position. That's why it's considered a fatal flaw in argument.

2) If you actually believe it (and I'm going to assume you're honest), this kind of approach will tend to lead you to not paying attention to what people who disagree with you are saying. "Everybody who disagrees with me is just trying to justify their sin" will effectively isolate you from everyone other than those who agree with your own opinions. If by chance there are areas where you're not right, it's going to make it more difficult for God to use other people to help correct you.

I can't speak for the original poster, but for myself, my approach to Christianity is driven by evidence, scientific, Biblical, every kind of evidence I can find. I think that's the best way to guard against the kinds of emotional influences you mention. That leads me to an approach similar to hers.
 
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Daniel25

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The Episcopal Church is another great class based faith. There will be no embarrassing acts of naive faith amongst the laity, unfashionable views on sexuality, or any obligations or demands that are inconvenient for your lifestyle. You won't have to worry about any riffraff sneaking in; the parishioners will be of your cohort, and it will a great self-affirming and actualizing experience.
 
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mmksparbud

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This is an ad hominem attack. There are two problems with it:

1) It doesn't prove anything. I can attack anyone's motivations. E.g. I can just as plausibly say that you're sticking with implausible conservative readings of the Bible in order to justify prejudices you have inherited from the red-neck aspects of American culture, and from your church's traditions. But we can do this kind of attack for any position. It has nothing to do with the truth of the position. That's why it's considered a fatal flaw in argument.

2) If you actually believe it (and I'm going to assume you're honest), this kind of approach will tend to lead you to not paying attention to what people who disagree with you are saying. "Everybody who disagrees with me is just trying to justify their sin" will effectively isolate you from everyone other than those who agree with your own opinions. If by chance there are areas where you're not right, it's going to make it more difficult for God to use other people to help correct you.

I can't speak for the original poster, but for myself, my approach to Christianity is driven by evidence, scientific, Biblical, every kind of evidence I can find. I think that's the best way to guard against the kinds of emotional influences you mention. That leads me to an approach similar to hers.

Like I said, seek and ye shall find. You will find what you are looking for.
 
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GrayAngel

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I will not encourage you to look for such a church, because liberal churches like the kind you describe are not based on God's principles. If a church doesn't accept the Bible as the infallible Word of God, then it will do nothing but drive you further away from Him.

Rather than looking for a church that says that homosexuality is not a sin, you should look for a church that doesn't condemn people for being sinners. Just because someone believes that homosexuality is wrong doesn't mean they're going to bully people who are homosexual, or claim that homosexuals are destined for Hell.

My church teaches the Bible. And as a result, they teach that homosexual behaviors are sinful. However, they also teach all people should be treated with love, and that homosexuality is no worse than the many forms of heterosexual immorality such as sexual promiscuity, inappropriate contentography, prostitution. After all, Jesus was known for spending time with prostitutes, so why should we treat homosexuals with contempt?

If you want to see your relationship with God grow, you need to find yourself a church like this.
 
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Heidiii

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There are numerous things in this thread for me to reply to, and I will get to them, but for now I'll just explain how I see the homosexuality issue.

If one is a homosexual and a non Christian, the fact that they have not accepted Jesus as their personal savior should surely be a far greater problem in His eyes, to the point that they are a homosexual is a moot point.

If one is a homosexual Christian who has accepted Jesus and loves him, and loves all people, then surely they could still be saved, as they've still accepted Jesus and love Him. Unlike many other people in the world.

I think the reason that a lot of homosexuals drift away from Jesus (and most of my gay friends fit in this category) is because they get alienated by other Christians about it.

From a scientific point of view, homosexuality is definitely unusual. It's been seen in other animal species, and humans who are homosexual say they genuinely don't feel comfortable forcing themselves to be heterosexual. But it's bizarre, because it even contradicts evolution and nature in general in addition to the bible, as we're suppose to want to reproduce and pass on our genes. I don't think people would stick with it given how condemned it is in society, unless they really couldn't get away from it. And there does seem to be a lot of scientific evidence showing it to be genuine, as unusual as it is.

I see it as a disability with fairly mild effects on the individuals ability to function more than anything else. A very minor disability of the mind that leads to more serious problems related to reproduction. Various mental illnesses also cause people to sin in various ways. Just like any disability or difference though, I believe that seeing as the individual can't help it, we need to accept them the way they are.

I'm 100% heterosexual though, so the issue doesn't affect me personally. But yeah, my expectation is that those around me in Church wouldn't say that homosexuals will go to Hell, but instead either keep quiet about them or pray for them like they would for anybody else.

The attitudes of a large number of homosexuals though are concerning. They could definitely act in a far more holy and pure way about it. Some of the things they do kinda appear as going out of their way to rebel against God (but again, I think that this could be related to the way Christians can be towards them).

I wish people would just not be homosexual, it'd simplify things so much.
 
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razeontherock

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But yeah, I want advice on what sort of Church I should be looking for. I want something liberal that respects things like evolution and homosexuality, although particularly for the latter, I'm okay about about it not being encouraged, only that people wouldn't say that there is anything seriously wrong with it (as I have a number of homosexual friends who I have great respect for). And I want to be allowed to love all

:wave: Hi! Please do realize that Biblical Christianity, regardless of denomination, is to be focused on learning to love the unlovable. IF the Bible specifies something as sin, we are to expect ourselves to maybe not be inclined towards what is written. "Confessing" is agreeing with G-d on specifics! (Lotsa power there that gets muddled over most of the time)

So first, a "good Church" will look nothing like these issues as you're presenting them. I encourage you to go somewhere you will actually find help acquainting your self with the mind of G-d, rather than shopping for people who agree with you; the former fosters Spiritual growth ;)

Also, what about versions of the Bible? I believe there are a few.

Biblegateway.com has both GW and NLT, which are translated on an opposite basis from ESV. Reading the contrast btw the two helps! If you come across something called "Beck," that's supposed to be excellent as well.

There's a few quotes from the bible that seem strange to me, would it be okay to post a few of them here and get some opinions from actual Christians on them?

Lotsa that, to be sure! It's good to shore up the basics though ...
 
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Heidiii

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Oh ok, I didn't realise that. I can definitely see where Christians are coming from, the bible is quite explicit about it being bad.

I guess the biggest thing I'm trying to say is "Don't bash it in front of me". I don't encourage it at all. But I don't think bad of homosexuals either. That topic is probably best dropped now. Hopefully most Christians don't talk about it at all.

Although, I agree with most of what has been said here about it. It should be discouraged, but those who are that way should be loved like anybody else.
 
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razeontherock

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If one is a homosexual and a non Christian, the fact that they have not accepted Jesus as their personal savior should surely be a far greater problem in His eyes, to the point that they are a homosexual is a moot point.

If one is a homosexual Christian who has accepted Jesus and loves him, and loves all people, then surely they could still be saved, as they've still accepted Jesus and love Him. Unlike many other people in the world.

I think the reason that a lot of homosexuals drift away from Jesus (and most of my gay friends fit in this category) is because they get alienated by other Christians about it.

This is a reasonable stance that I share.

we need to accept them the way they are.

This is Christ-like, and neither defending homosexuality nor even discussing it. Merely "polishing up our armor," and practicing our stance.

my expectation is that those around me in Church wouldn't say that homosexuals will go to Hell, but instead either keep quiet about them or pray for them like they would for anybody else.

May I suggest that this bolded phrase should not be found in a good Church? We are not called to coddle any sort of sin, but to lift up our voice like a trumpet, declaring G-d's Truth. Again, I'm separating this from any gay issue, and just giving GP's here.

The attitudes of a large number of homosexuals though are concerning. They could definitely act in a far more holy and pure way about it. Some of the things they do kinda appear as going out of their way to rebel against God (but again, I think that this could be related to the way Christians can be towards them).

There are many issues like this in our society, which is increasingly polarizing ...

Jesus still teaches understanding and compassion!
 
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Heidiii

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This is Christ-like, and neither defending homosexuality nor even discussing it. Merely "polishing up our armor," and practicing our stance.
Cool.

I'm getting the impression that it is probably only a few people who would have views on this topic that would bother me, and that the average Christian will see the sin in a "Christian" way.

Maybe really liberal isn't for me, but instead something in the middle of liberal and conservative.

May I suggest that this bolded phrase should not be found in a good Church? We are not called to coddle any sort of sin, but to lift up our voice like a trumpet, declaring G-d's Truth. Again, I'm separating this from any gay issue, and just giving GP's here.

Yeah, that's true.

Also... I hope this isn't a rude question/ something I should already know, but why do you type God's name as "G-d"? Is it to do with his importance?

Thanks for all the advice by the way guys.
 
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razeontherock

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Also... I hope this isn't a rude question/ something I should already know, but why do you type God's name as "G-d"? Is it to do with his importance?

Not rude at all. It's just tempting to forget how much is unknown, if we write about what we do know. So it's a small step of humility, as well as making me slow down to find that dash, and really make sure i want to say that ...

Thanks for all the advice by the way guys.

You're welcome! The choices are daunting, and this is not an easy process, nor an easy decision. Hopefully your most difficult decision will be choosing amongst good Churches! Echoing what another said, I do encourage you to read the Bible and acquaint yourself with the basics, which are fundamental to recognizing a good Church.

Having a list of questions ready for a mid-week app't with the appropriate leader is a GREAT way to find out what a place is all about, after visiting many and narrowing down the list.

Merry Christmas and, wise women still seek Him
 
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Heidiii

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I do intend to do more bible reading. I also intend to finish reading one of the gospels (that I have a paper copy of).

I'm not going to start looking for a church until I move, although in the mean time I have lots of time to read.

Also, why do we never sing Happy Birthday to Jesus on Christmas? It seems that it'd be more appropriate than most Christmas songs. Just a random thought. But yeah, Merry Christmas to you too :)
 
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razeontherock

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why do we never sing Happy Birthday to Jesus on Christmas?

O Holy Night does! Here's one of my more favorite versions: (the trumpet jock stuff doesn't start til after 2:15, so it's easy to skip)

Oh Holy Night Crazy Trumpet Solo-Wayne Bergeron - YouTube

2:00 to hear one of those things in the hands of a woman, in an exquisite setting:

"O Holy Night" - YouTube

No, I'm sure it doesn't capture the moment under discussion, but from 2:00 to the end this still gets my official WOW :thumbsup: (Skipping the first 2 minutes)
 
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GrayAngel

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There are numerous things in this thread for me to reply to, and I will get to them, but for now I'll just explain how I see the homosexuality issue.

If one is a homosexual and a non Christian, the fact that they have not accepted Jesus as their personal savior should surely be a far greater problem in His eyes, to the point that they are a homosexual is a moot point.

If one is a homosexual Christian who has accepted Jesus and loves him, and loves all people, then surely they could still be saved, as they've still accepted Jesus and love Him. Unlike many other people in the world.

I think the reason that a lot of homosexuals drift away from Jesus (and most of my gay friends fit in this category) is because they get alienated by other Christians about it.

From a scientific point of view, homosexuality is definitely unusual. It's been seen in other animal species, and humans who are homosexual say they genuinely don't feel comfortable forcing themselves to be heterosexual. But it's bizarre, because it even contradicts evolution and nature in general in addition to the bible, as we're suppose to want to reproduce and pass on our genes. I don't think people would stick with it given how condemned it is in society, unless they really couldn't get away from it. And there does seem to be a lot of scientific evidence showing it to be genuine, as unusual as it is.

I see it as a disability with fairly mild effects on the individuals ability to function more than anything else. A very minor disability of the mind that leads to more serious problems related to reproduction. Various mental illnesses also cause people to sin in various ways. Just like any disability or difference though, I believe that seeing as the individual can't help it, we need to accept them the way they are.

I'm 100% heterosexual though, so the issue doesn't affect me personally. But yeah, my expectation is that those around me in Church wouldn't say that homosexuals will go to Hell, but instead either keep quiet about them or pray for them like they would for anybody else.

The attitudes of a large number of homosexuals though are concerning. They could definitely act in a far more holy and pure way about it. Some of the things they do kinda appear as going out of their way to rebel against God (but again, I think that this could be related to the way Christians can be towards them).

I wish people would just not be homosexual, it'd simplify things so much.

I completely agree with you. People who live by God's principles should love homosexuals, just like everyone else. However, saying that someone who is homosexual can be saved depends on who you consider to be "homosexual," I think. If what you mean by that is including anyone who has attraction for the same sex, then of course they can be saved. But when I talk about homosexuality, I'm usually concerned with "practicing homosexuals," people who act on their urges. I'm not so sure about these people.

"Acceptance" is another problem word. We can accept anyone into God's house, despite all their flaws. However, that doesn't mean that we accept what they're doing as okay. You can love somebody and still hate the sin they're involved with. And as Christians, we should always be challenging one another to grow closer to God, and part of that is teaching what on what is sinful and displeasing to God.

I do intend to do more bible reading. I also intend to finish reading one of the gospels (that I have a paper copy of).

I'm not going to start looking for a church until I move, although in the mean time I have lots of time to read.

Also, why do we never sing Happy Birthday to Jesus on Christmas? It seems that it'd be more appropriate than most Christmas songs. Just a random thought. But yeah, Merry Christmas to you too :)

Ever heard "Happy Birthday Jesus?" Personally, it makes me cringe, but some people find it cute.
 
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