Real Curious about Paintings

washedagain

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http://theorthodoxlife.wordpress.com/2011/11/11/ancient-jewish-icons/

Hi board.... I am curious what the opinions are from the Jews on this board and the Messianics.

I ran across this article on the OE board and found it puzzling to say the least.

I understand from scripture when God said to create artwork for the Temple, but I also have had the impression that if God doesn't say do it, the Jews would not do it.

This is a picture of a Temple that has walls of artwork. Of course the EO's are labeling it as "Icons"... looks to me more like pictures telling biblical stories... I would find it hard to believe that any God fearing Jew would ever venerate these paintings...

Looking for opinions and someone who is more knowledgeable than I of Jewish worship customs.
http://theorthodoxlife.wordpress.com/2011/11/11/ancient-jewish-icons/
 

xDenax

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I understand from scripture when God said to create artwork for the Temple, but I also have had the impression that if God doesn't say do it, the Jews would not do it.

So are you saying Jews should not put artwork in synagogues? I'm a little fuzzy on your point but I think that is what you are saying?
 
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washedagain

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So are you saying Jews should not put artwork in synagogues? I'm a little fuzzy on your point but I think that is what you are saying?

No, I am asking if what is in the link is Icons or just paintings and also asking about Jewish temple customs... I have no idea... that is why I am asking questions.

Thanks.
 
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washedagain

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Icons are pictures, or paintings of revered people.

Yes, I know that icons are pictures, they can also be statues and medallions... what makes something an Icon though is if it is venerated.

I am asking if this is a Jewish custom to have icons or are these just Jewish art work.
 
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ChavaK

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Icons are prohibited in Judaism. Especially inside the shul. G-d only knows how this abomination was allowed to happen.
If, as stated above, an icon is a picture of a revered person, then Jewish homes do have them. Every Chabad home will have a picture of the Rebbe.
Many homes have pictures of gedolim on their walls.
Is an "icon" necessarily a bad thing?
 
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jcpro

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If, as stated above, an icon is a picture of a revered person, then Jewish homes do have them. Every Chabad home will have a picture of the Rebbe.
Many homes have pictures of gedolim on their walls.
Is an "icon" necessarily a bad thing?
Not to mention the back of the Chabad shul usually will have the picture of the Lubavitcher Rebbe as well, but not in the worship area. For my taste few followers come to close to veneration of the famous rabbis. Too bad the Besht is not aroud to offer his opinion on this subject. I think I know what he would say...
 
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washedagain

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Icon means image in Greek. The veneration is equal to the 'serving' and thus prohibited.

Good information... but to the EO and GO and to an extent the CC they have images (such as pictures and painting of landscapes and such) that are not considered Icons.

The word has morphed into "images that are to be venerated."

Over on the EO board, they are using this find to support and bolster their practice of veneration of images.... cuz they think Jews did it as well.

I found this completely foreign to what little knowledge that I have been exposed to of Jewish custom.

I knew it was not right.
 
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washedagain

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Icons are prohibited in Judaism. Especially inside the shul. G-d only knows how this abomination was allowed to happen.

That is what I thought... what do you think of this temple in the link?
 
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visionary

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Yes, I know that icons are pictures, they can also be statues and medallions... what makes something an Icon though is if it is venerated.

I am asking if this is a Jewish custom to have icons or are these just Jewish art work.
I would say the line should be drawn between that which is just a picture or statue and that which is kissed and/or caressed and/or spoken to in prayer.
 
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Lulav

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From the website posted in the OP
While Scripture required the inside of the Jerusalem Temple to display icons of angels,
This is not correct, but a misinterpretation, as you say for validation. These were not made to be worshipped. The angels, or keruv, keruvim were on top of the ark. The ark was only seen once a year by the HIGH Priest. He did not worship it, in fact there is nothing in the Torah that says he had anything to do with it. The blood was sprinkled on the mercy seat, between the keruvim.

As far as the pictures they have, yes, in the Diaspora and especially with Hellenoized Jews, many of the ways of the Gentiles were used. I think these were just pictures of bible stories though, and not venerated.

In the first one, the scene of the Akedah, the binding of Isaac, you will notice that they are all facing away, so no faces are shown.

When you read that you may think this was how it should be and not read further, but in that same link just after the place where the link takes you the website says this:

Just three years prior to the discovery of Dura, a stunning mosaic floor of a 6th century synagogue had been uncovered at Kibbutz Bet Alpha., the earliest akedah to be found in Israel. The naive style of the mosaic displays Jewish, pagan and possibly Christian elements.
Notice this is not 100% Jewish, but a mixture, which if you read the OT, you will see we many times fell into the customs of the heathens. So you must take this 'proof' using just one synogoue with a grain of salt and not consider it the 'norm' but part of Jewry which was not always 'by the Book'. :)
 
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washedagain

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From the website posted in the OP
This is not correct, but a misinterpretation, as you say for validation. These were not made to be worshipped. The angels, or keruv, keruvim were on top of the ark. The ark was only seen once a year by the HIGH Priest. He did not worship it, in fact there is nothing in the Torah that says he had anything to do with it. The blood was sprinkled on the mercy seat, between the keruvim.

As far as the pictures they have, yes, in the Diaspora and especially with Hellenoized Jews, many of the ways of the Gentiles were used. I think these were just pictures of bible stories though, and not venerated.

In the first one, the scene of the Akedah, the binding of Isaac, you will notice that they are all facing away, so no faces are shown.

When you read that you may think this was how it should be and not read further, but in that same link just after the place where the link takes you the website says this:

Notice this is not 100% Jewish, but a mixture, which if you read the OT, you will see we many times fell into the customs of the heathens. So you must take this 'proof' using just one synogoue with a grain of salt and not consider it the 'norm' but part of Jewry which was not always 'by the Book'. :)


Yes, that is what I thought... you may want to go to the EO board and have a chat.... I thought it was a gross misrepresentation of Jewish worship to bolster their "icon veneration".

http://www.christianforums.com/t7613104/
 
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Lulav

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visionary

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Hey, they have been telling themselves that for years,... called self justification.. you take that away from them and they will get very angry.. and refuse to believe you.. so why bother.

watch
 
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washedagain

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Hey, they have been telling themselves that for years,... called self justification.. you take that away from them and they will get very angry.. and refuse to believe you.. so why bother.

watch
LOL/.... I have seen this so many times... My moms house is full of "Icons". She treats treats them as if they are real.

Weird.
 
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