[Open] tags-a read and respond thread for all

[visionary]

Now that is an example of brotherly love.. shame on you too but more so ..shame on this even happening among brethren.

 

[ContraMundum]

Now that is an example of brotherly love.. shame on you too but more so ..shame on this even happening among brethren.

?

 

[ChavaK]

This forum has ALWAYS been of the Christian faith, residing within a Christian group. It's statements of faith and common rules have been 'Christian' since it's inception.

.....and I don't understand those who insist neither them nor the forum nor the Messianic faith is "not" Christian.

 

[visionary]

.....and I don't understand those who insist neither them nor the forum nor the Messianic faith is "not" Christian.

Thank you...

 

[jcpro]

.....and I don't understand those who insist neither them nor the forum nor the Messianic faith is "not" Christian.

The "Judaism" part makes it confusing. It should be replaced with something else. Maybe something less offensive to the followers of Judaism.

 

[Shimshon]

The "Judaism" part makes it confusing. It should be replaced with something else. Maybe something less offensive to the followers of Judaism.

The problem you continue to have is, you can't come to terms with Jews remaining Jewish AND believing in the Messiah Yeshua.

To term it another way, A Jew does not lose his Jewishness simply because he places faith in the words of Yeshua an follows God through Him.

AND another way of looking at it is, a Jew does not lose his Jewishness when he practices Christianity. i.e. places faith in the words of Yeshua as the words of God and follows God through Yeshua.

A Jew can be Christian at the same time. But Rabbinical Judaism will most likely never agree as it's focus seems to be declaring the opposite.

 

[Shimshon]

Now that is an example of brotherly love.. shame on you too but more so ..shame on this even happening among brethren.

21 He replied, "My mother and brothers are those who hear God's word and put it into practice."

Brothers of the faith practice the commands of God. Yeshua, speaking the Fathers words ONLY, commanded us to practice life in a certain way. This whole issue is that you say he commanded us to practice the Torah given through Moshe as an eternal lifestyle. Scripture says not only different, but opposite to your testimonial witness. It testifies that we are commanded to teach and preach the life, death and resurrection of Yeshua the Messiah to all the world. THIS was the message he gave for the Jewish disciples to witness to the world.

So, you have a different message from the witness in the bible given by the apostles who received it from Yeshua, who spoke it as God.

Who is my brother? He who practices the commands of God. The commands here would be the arguing point of this whole issue. I've posted time and time again the witness we have of the apostles and the testimony given them by Yeshua who spoke ONLY the words of God.

They prove that you are not speaking their message, which would suggest that you are not my sister in the faith. As you have a different faith than that which was witnessed by the apostles.

I treat you as a sister because I am commanded to 'treat' you 'as' a sister. But I am also commanded to stand for the witness testified by the apostles and Yeshua. And this is what I am doing.

18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them inthe name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

Teach all nations in the world as I have taught you.

Yeshua himself instructed the gentiles through the apostles to observe all that he had commanded.

1 In the first book, O 1Theophilus, I have dealt with all that Jesus began 2to do and teach, 2 until the day when 3he was taken up, after he 4had given commands 5through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen.

Yeshua gave commands through the Spirit to the to the apostles.

Here is what Peter stated Yeshua commanded him.

42 And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead. 43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."

He commanded the apostles to preach and testify that Yeshua is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead, he is God in the flesh.

NOWHERE does it state they were commanded to teach the nations to follow the Torah as given at Sinai, as Jews.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

This forum has ALWAYS been of the Christian faith, residing within a Christian group. It's statements of faith and common rules have been 'Christian' since it's inception.

Yet, you barge in the doors of a faith group that you fully admit to being NOT a member of in any way, and threaten us with your removal if we start being who we have been from the beginning?

Perhaps it's just me, but it is a bit odd to see the icon issue allowed to be utilized by others who may not even be "Christians"---despite all of the talk done by others over the years that being Messianic and being Christian are not the same (and to be clear, I disagree sharply with that).

But with the icon labeled "Non-Trinatarian Messianic", I was always under the impression that it meant one believed in the person of Christ/Yeshua and sought to follow him alongside appreciating the Hebraic/Jewish heritage that came with it...yet they didn't hold to the concept of the Trinity. Some good discussions occurred here, here or in threads such as Do messianic jews believe in the trinity? and they were very informative. I was not aware one could have that icon and not believe in Christ, as seen in #80 ---but then again, even with the icon of "Messianic", it is not necessarily the case that one claiming to be "Messianic" is believing in Yeshua as the Messiah. As said before elsewhere in one of the threads addressing those who're "Anti-Paul" ( #453 ), there were and are still many who felt that the term "Messianic" (or "Messianic Jewish" ) is a bit elusive---for even within Judaism, others could say that they're Messianic since the goal of Judaism was always to point to a Savior. Where battle occurs within Judaism is discovering who truly qualifies to be the Messiah and which form of Judaism points to Him. Some felt it was Yeshua, whereas others felt it was a specific teacher or rabbi...and some even felt that it was Israel itself--both the OT nation of Israel and the current State of Israel-- was to be considered the "Savior" ........and for some, the savior has yet to be revealed.

For examples of such, one can go to the following:

• The Rebirth of Messianic Judaism
• Israel Knohl - The Rosh Pina Project
• Is the Messiah divine? « The Rosh Pina Project
• The Messiah before Jesus « The Rosh Pina Project
• Isaiah 53 and the suffering servant « The Rosh Pina Project
• Saba: The Alternative Breslov Messiah « The Rosh Pina Project
• Why the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 cannot be Israel « The Rosh Pina Project...
• Chabad Rabbi Says Dead Rebbe Is The Messiah, State Of Israel Is Not A State
• Isaiah 53 – I see Jesus (eisegesis) or exegesis – who is the suffering servant? - The Rosh Pina Project

Since there are many who come into the modern Messianic Jewish movement from all ends of the spectrum within Judaism (i.e. Orthodox, Reform, Conservative, Chasidic, etc), many often consider themselves to be "Messianic" and those who disagree with them are simply different. For many, this factor is why many don't care to consider the Modern Day Movement of Messianic Judaism as truly the only one focused upon Jesus. Its not that Jesus isn't the Messiah and therefore those looking unto Him are not "Messianic"----but rather, its about what kind of Messianic one is...


That said, something that came to mind on the icon issue is what another believer said over in the Word of Faith forums. For over there, the mods have often been pointing out that a WoF believer may choose to wear a black Christian cross or perhaps a Charismatic icon, and still be WoF...even if they don't believe EVERY tenent of WoF. For as long as they don't come against the core of WoF in the forum, they are welcome. Perhaps that could be the case here in regards to the icon issue, as the STATEMENT of Purpose/Faith would be in view for all and the icons would not make others feel as if they're limited----and others would have clarity on where all others stand. Whether or not someone said they were "Messianic" would be inconsequential since what would matter is what is lived out..and whether or not one deals with the SOP, which gives flexibility. Believing in the Lord Jesus is one of the main points where one would obviously need to be in 100% support when it comes to Him being the Messiah---and how one chooses to practice/live out Torah would be something that would be their own buisness since what would be clear is that they believe in the significance of Torah and appreciate how the Lord gave it. In that way, when one sees another with a "Messianic" icon, that alone will not be taken as what defines another. What they express will give more clarity as to where they may stand.

Just some thoughts..

 

[visionary]

Brothers of the faith practice the commands of God. Yeshua, speaking the Fathers words ONLY, commanded us to practice life in a certain way. This whole issue is that you say he commanded us to practice the Torah given through Moshe as an eternal lifestyle. Scripture says not only different, but opposite to your testimonial witness. It testifies that we are commanded to teach and preach the life, death and resurrection of Yeshua the Messiah to all the world. THIS was the message he gave for the Jewish disciples to witness to the world.

So, you have a different message from the witness in the bible given by the apostles who received it from Yeshua, who spoke it as God.

Who is my brother? He who practices the commands of God. The commands here would be the arguing point of this whole issue. I've posted time and time again the witness we have of the apostles and the testimony given them by Yeshua who spoke ONLY the words of God.

They prove that you are not speaking their message, which would suggest that you are not my sister in the faith. As you have a different faith than that which was witnessed by the apostles.

I treat you as a sister because I am commanded to 'treat' you 'as' a sister. But I am also commanded to stand for the witness testified by the apostles and Yeshua. And this is what I am doing.

Teach all nations in the world as I have taught you.

Yeshua himself instructed the gentiles through the apostles to observe all that he had commanded. Yeshua gave commands through the Spirit to the to the apostles.

Here is what Peter stated Yeshua commanded him.He commanded the apostles to preach and testify that Yeshua is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead, he is God in the flesh.

NOWHERE does it state they were commanded to teach the nations to follow the Torah as given at Sinai, as Jews.

Even the Jews will tell you that the Commandments of God were spoken in the then known languages of the World .. because they were for everyone. That which is written on parchment by Moses is for the Jews.. so in this part we are in agreement.

 

[Desert Rose]

Desert Rose you're stuck with us. You understand us MJs with your little cross icon better than some here with the scroll or menorah. And I can safely say that also about Chava and Yonah. Our words define us better than our icons.

You are truly a kind and loving soul, always friendly to all.

(reading the rest and refusing to believe my eyes)
Yonah banned?

Hmmm. If i knew who's job is this, i would kick his/her behind so bad, you'd be collecting bail money to get DR out right now... Lets dumbify the forum, why dont we... how sad

 

[anisavta]

It never ceases to amaze me that the ones who offer the most to our group are the ones banned. What's wrong with this picture???
Frankly since all but maybe one or two here are down right angry that he keeps getting kicked off I think we are due an explanation as to what the sam hill he does that is so offensive.

 

[EyesOfKohl]

If this forum starts...?? Enforcing would be the proper word to focus on here. This forum has ALWAYS been of the Christian faith, residing within a Christian group. It's statements of faith and common rules have been 'Christian' since it's inception.

Yet, you barge in the doors of a faith group that you fully admit to being NOT a member of in any way, and threaten us with your removal if we start being who we have been from the beginning?

chutzpah!!

Welcome to my little report button......(tony montano)

You're right indeed, they do enforce their own Christian idealogy and rules on us here. That is why many of us can't discuss our true faith because it's 'controversial' and the truth threatens Christian peoples faith. Not all of us Messianic's come from Christian backgrounds and that's what we see people here doing, getting rid of us. Messianic Jews and Jews alike are being reported and forced to leave because of Christians with weak idealogy that can't handle our discussions. All discussions have to be 'tamed' down to fit and suit Christians. Messianics from a non-Christian background are obviously not welcomed here. That's pretty clear and it's probably people like you who are reporting others such as yonah because we don't fit under your little selection of man-made ideas, but seek truth in our blessed Elah.

 

[Tishri1]

It never ceases to amaze me that the ones who offer the most to our group are the ones banned. What's wrong with this picture???
Frankly since all but maybe one or two here are down right angry that he keeps getting kicked off I think we are due an explanation as to what the sam hill he does that is so off

breach of confidentiality in open forums is against staff rules for all staffers, and we have a policy forum wide not to discuss reports or staff actions in open threads, but you all are welcome to ask him privately

 

[ContraMundum]

You're right indeed, they do enforce their own Christian idealogy and rules on us here.

Good! Look at the title of the forum: "Christian Forums". You expecting maybe an Islamic discussion?

That is why many of us can't discuss our true faith because it's 'controversial' and the truth threatens Christian peoples faith. Not all of us Messianic's come from Christian backgrounds and that's what we see people here doing, getting rid of us. Messianic Jews and Jews alike are being reported and forced to leave because of Christians with weak idealogy that can't handle our discussions. All discussions have to be 'tamed' down to fit and suit Christians. Messianics from a non-Christian background are obviously not welcomed here. That's pretty clear and it's probably people like you who are reporting others such as yonah because we don't fit under your little selection of man-made ideas, but seek truth in our blessed Elah.

Trust me when I tell you that I do not feel even remotely threatened by anything you have posted previously.

I also think you are wrong about a point or two here, and I say this with respect because your perspective comes froma relative newcomer. I am a Messianic from a non-Christian background. Many people here welcome me- in fact, this week has been very revealing as to how much love people have for a poor man like myself. The messages have been many and very warm and supportive. A real boost. It's folks from your end of the spectrum that want people like me to just shrivel and die. So, my experience here is the opposite to what you are describing.

Secondly, the people that reported Yonah are logically the ones who are threatened by his knowledge- and that in no way could be the Christians or the mainstream MJs. His knowledge of the Greek NT pretty much affirmed the fact that the ancient Christian Church of whom MJs are so very much and vitally a part of knows its Bible well. He confirmed the beliefs of the Christian and normative Messianic Faith over and over. We know who were his opponents, and it wasn't who you are accusing.

 

[SGM4HIM]

I believe too that a MJO thread should be the exception rather than the general rule.

When I first joined CF, MJ's were prohibited from discussing their beliefs with me. I was starving for dialogue with MJ's, was polite but was not allowed to discuss the reasons or supporting scriptures, for others or my beliefs.

After 2 yrs, I and 3 others were given special permission to join the MJ dialogue here. Then ownership and rules changed again.

Not every person neatly fits in to nice tidy categories and focusing on them creates further division divisions.

And what about folks that have the proper scrolls but clearly don't agree with SOF's of major MJ governing bodies? Will people start voting on whether they think a person is a genuine and sincere MJ?

Being exposed to differing POV's has challenged me to read scripture further and is sometimes uncomfortable. It helps ward of complacency too.

We do have mechanisms in place already to protect against outright flaming and hate spreading. Public opinion also helps folks people know where they stand. Like sexual harrassment, people have different levels of sensitivity and comfort levels. Say "ouch" or hit the report button if they persist.

Why not provide a reminder link for open tag definition. Not everyone wants to sign up to be PM'd

 

[yedida]

breach of confidentiality in open forums is against staff rules for all staffers, and we have a policy forum wide not to discuss reports or staff actions in open threads, but you all are welcome to ask him privately

I think we should be able to know who has hit the report button. IRL the accused has the right to face their accuser - we should have that same right.
Maybe not in an open forum but in the way Member Services is, where only staff, accuser and accused can meet and talk. Just a thought......

 

[Tishri1]

not gonna work...the forum is private owned so some things are not up for majority vote. I understand it does take time to see the site wide implications of all the wishes addressed in a forum this size...some we have tried and have not been good for the site and that was one if anyone remembers the wiki days(777)

not all ideas have a good outcome site wide but we do try to customize this area to make safe havens in each congregational forum....still we have to have structure over all these forums too and what worked best were sops with a common congregational rule governing them all....there's a bit of wiggle room and you all have used it pretty much all the way to the line...we know what has happened in the past when that line is crossed as we have tried it many time over in this forum as well as others in this area over the years

bottom line, this is first a safe haven for MJs of all types and we want to keep it that way as much as possible

 

[Tishri1]

fortunately it was decided a few pages back to have an MJ-only tag so one was created(see a recent thread using the tag )
http://www.christianforums.com/t7607066/

I believe too that a MJO thread should be the exception rather than the general rule.

When I first joined CF, MJ's were prohibited from discussing their beliefs with me. I was starving for dialogue with MJ's, was polite but was not allowed to discuss the reasons or supporting scriptures, for others or my beliefs.

After 2 yrs, I and 3 others were given special permission to join the MJ dialogue here. Then ownership and rules changed again.

Not every person neatly fits in to nice tidy categories and focusing on them creates further division divisions.

And what about folks that have the proper scrolls but clearly don't agree with SOF's of major MJ governing bodies? Will people start voting on whether they think a person is a genuine and sincere MJ?

Being exposed to differing POV's has challenged me to read scripture further and is sometimes uncomfortable. It helps ward of complacency too.

We do have mechanisms in place already to protect against outright flaming and hate spreading. Public opinion also helps folks people know where they stand. Like sexual harrassment, people have different levels of sensitivity and comfort levels. Say "ouch" or hit the report button if they persist.

Why not provide a reminder link for open tag definition. Not everyone wants to sign up to be PM'd

 

[Tishri1]

http://www.christianforums.com/t7537974/

does that sound clear enough for us?

thoughts?

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I believe too that a MJO thread should be the exception rather than the general rule.

When I first joined CF, MJ's were prohibited from discussing their beliefs with me. I was starving for dialogue with MJ's, was polite but was not allowed to discuss the reasons or supporting scriptures, for others or my beliefs.

After 2 yrs, I and 3 others were given special permission to join the MJ dialogue here. Then ownership and rules changed again.

Not every person neatly fits in to nice tidy categories and focusing on them creates further division divisions.

And what about folks that have the proper scrolls but clearly don't agree with SOF's of major MJ governing bodies? Will people start voting on whether they think a person is a genuine and sincere MJ?

Being exposed to differing POV's has challenged me to read scripture further and is sometimes uncomfortable. It helps ward of complacency too.

We do have mechanisms in place already to protect against outright flaming and hate spreading. Public opinion also helps folks people know where they stand. Like sexual harrassment, people have different levels of sensitivity and comfort levels. Say "ouch" or hit the report button if they persist.

Why not provide a reminder link for open tag definition. Not everyone wants to sign up to be PM'd

You know, in all of the forums here, members are forbidden to state or imply that another Christian is "not Christian" or is "less of a Christian". As far a Christian Forums is concerned a "major" Christian denomination is no more Christian than a small group who meet in a "house Church".

I think we all need to realize that just as in main-stream Christianity (what ever that is) there are many diversities, just as there are many diversities within the MJ community; no doubt there are also many diversities within the "major" MJ communities as well.

A flame is a flame regardless of who makes it against who. If your forums are going to work this must be kept in mind.

The rule; please note the portion I highlighted in red:

Flaming and Harassment
● Do not insult, belittle, mock, goad, personally attack, threaten, harass, or use derogatory nicknames in reference to other members or groups of members. Address the context of the post, not the poster.
● If you are flamed, do not respond in-kind. Alert staff to the situation by utilizing the report button. Do not report another member out of spite.
● Do not state or imply that another member or group of members who have identified themselves as Christian are not Christian.
● Those who do not adhere to the Statement of Faith are welcome as members and participants in discussions, but you are required to respect these beliefs, even if you do not share them.
● Do not make another member's experience on this site miserable. This includes, making false accusations or persistently attacking them in the open forums.
● Respect another member's request to cease personal contact.