Does God love atheists and heathens?

[seekingagnostic32]

?

 

[ChristianT]

Luke 5:32

I have not come to invite good people but sinners to change their hearts and lives

Romans 5:8

But God demonstrated his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

So the answer is yes, God does love atheists and heathens, however, not in a way where they can just disbelieve and randomly go to Heaven, but so that they might one day before their death, recognize who God is and change their lives (not to follow a list of dos and donts but to simply stop sinning and live free of sin).

 

[ChristianT]

I love how with the current results, God definitely loves atheists and heathens.

 

[seekingagnostic32]

I was taught that god does not love anyone but the elect.

 

[ChristianT]

from where or whom were you taught?

 

[dewba]

Yes!

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

 

[seekingagnostic32]

from where or whom were you taught?

Westminster Confession and Synod of Dordt specifically. God calls some and damns the rest.

 

[dewba]

Proverbs 16:4
The LORD works out everything for his own ends--even the wicked for a day of disaster.

 

[ChristianT]

God calls some and damns the rest.

The problem with the idea of the elect is this:
Think of all the years from creation (if you don't believe in this, take a quick assumption... if you believe in secular or even theistic evolution, the dates are much longer). Now of the 6000 (+/-) years of human existence, how many people have lived? one can guess billions, trillions, etc. But in Revelation, John said that he only saw 144 000 of the elect. So therefore, the odds of any of us being the elect are almost if not zero. If we were not destined for grace, and we can not receive grace by a faith and life dedicated to Jesus and a life-change (change of sin), then why doesn't God just condemn us now? what would be the point in letting us live if we could not be saved from our sin?

These are real questions, so please answer or provide questions if you want.

 

[seekingagnostic32]

The problem with the idea of the elect is this:
Think of all the years from creation (if you don't believe in this, take a quick assumption... if you believe in secular or even theistic evolution, the dates are much longer). Now of the 6000 (+/-) years of human existence, how many people have lived? one can guess billions, trillions, etc. But in Revelation, John said that he only saw 144 000 of the elect. So therefore, the odds of any of us being the elect are almost if not zero. If we were not destined for grace, and we can not receive grace by a faith and life dedicated to Jesus and a life-change (change of sin), then why doesn't God just condemn us now? what would be the point in letting us live if we could not be saved from our sin?

These are real questions, so please answer or provide questions if you want.

These are all good reasons why I'm not a believer at this point. I could suppose that god lets man live on earth so that he has a little bit of joy and fun in his life before going to hell. There is some merit in that.

 

[dewba]

If God works everything out for his own ends (even the wicked), then nobody is "eternally damned;" It would be incredibly cruel, if it were so, and God is not cruel...the pain that we feel while in world is nothing compared to the complete bliss of heaven

 

[ChristianT]

proving my point ("what would be the point in letting us live if we could not be saved from our sin?" my point is we can be saved from our sin. That's why Jesus died. Not for the few or elect to be saved, but for ALL who believe and truly strive to remove sin from their lives).

I am a believer because I know those statements of God throwing us away [into Hell] are false!

In Romans for instance, Paul did NOT say "But God demonstrated his own love for some of us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for the few of us."

 

[seekingagnostic32]

proving my point ("what would be the point in letting us live if we could not be saved from our sin?" my point is we can be saved from our sin. That's why Jesus died. Not for the few or elect to be saved, but for ALL who believe and truly strive to remove sin from their lives).

I am a believer because I know those statements of God throwing us away [into Hell] are false!

In Romans for instance, Paul did NOT say "But God demonstrated his own love for some of us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for the few of us."

Romans 9 says god chooses whom he will to save and whom he will reject or harden. You're believing only the parts of the Bible you like and agree with, while you reject the unpleasant parts. I used to do that too.

 

[ChristianT]

Romans 9:19-24

One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath–prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory– even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

this may sound Calvanistic, however!

going on, in context,

Romans 9:25-29

As he says in Hosea:
"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people;
and I will call her 'my loved one' who
is not my loved one,"
and,
"It will happen in the very place
where it was said to them,
'You are not my people,'
they will be called 'sons of the living God.' "

Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:
"Though the number of Israelites
be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.
For the Lord will carry out
hus sentence on earth with speed
and finality."

those who were not God's people (the 'elect') will be called his people... how can this not obviously deny the claims of Calvanism and predestination?

also, what is predestination as you believe it (or don't)?
I think of it as a lack of free will, as we all have.

 

[seekingagnostic32]

Romans 9:19-24


this may sound Calvanistic, however!

going on, in context,

Romans 9:25-29


those who were not God's people (the 'elect') will be called his people... how can this not obviously deny the claims of Calvanism and predestination?

also, what is predestination as you believe it (or don't)?
I think of it as a lack of free will, as we all have.

There is no free will, god wills everything. He did so with Pharaoh to display his power and that is why he damns people.

The more I listened to Calvin, the more I came to see it lined up with the Bible.

 

[razeontherock]

Luke 5:32


Romans 5:8


So the answer is yes, God does love atheists and heathens, however, not in a way where they can just disbelieve and randomly go to Heaven, but so that they might one day before their death, recognize who God is and change their lives (not to follow a list of dos and donts but to simply stop sinning and live free of sin).

This post is very good, right up to the part I emphasized. That much is also right on, but it can be read in a works righteousness frame of mind. this is why it's so essential to become "grounded in the word," so we don't fall to prey to legalism. On CF, many "former Christians" stand as a warning of this!

 

[ChristianT]

This post is very good, right up to the part I emphasized. That much is also right on, but it can be read in a works righteousness frame of mind. this is why it's so essential to become "grounded in the word," so we don't fall to prey to legalism. On CF, many "former Christians" stand as a warning of this!

I agree. Legalism is not what God want(s)(ed), and is not what gets us a place in Heaven with God.

 

[ChristianT]

At least, He didn't want all of our focus only on keeping laws and hope that leads to salvation.