Evidence vs. Believe (A Tale of Two Bunnies)

Reine

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If your reasons can stand the scrutiny.
Ok, ... I would like you to read only the gospels, and make an outline of the concepts that you see being brought out. Reason: To decide if they have any personal value for you.

then I would also like you to really listen to what Jesus said, and notice his sarcasm. Reason: Because it is fun and will make you laugh.
 
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Doveaman

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Saw this posted on another forum. This is a great analogy for the polarization in this sub-forum and uses cute little bunnies so everyone can understand, too!

*Puzzle*
You are putting together the wrong puzzle. DUH! :doh:
 
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Doveaman

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This is why illustrations only work so far. People who choose to ignore how the scientific method works find the perceived flaws in the simplified analogy and try to pick it apart on that basis. The analogy is about not accepting something just for the sake of accepting it, but rather questioning what is said when things don't seem to fit the arbitrary explanation.
That's why we question the scientific explanation when it doesn't fit.
 
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Doveaman

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Saw this posted on another forum. This is a great analogy for the polarization in this sub-forum and uses cute little bunnies so everyone can understand, too!

*Puzzle*
Also, please note that the picture puzzle is put together by intelligent design, and not randomly. :)
 
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Doveaman

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Saw this posted on another forum. This is a great analogy for the polarization in this sub-forum and uses cute little bunnies so everyone can understand, too!

*Puzzle*
Also, please note the pieces in the puzzle can be made to fit a completely different puzzle equally well. :)
 
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Lion Hearted Man

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I could be wrong, but I think more Christians beleive evolution to be true, so I don't think many would be posting here. I thought this topic was about evolutionary Christian science.

A lot of Christians do, especially outside the US. I don't think anyone here would argue that there is conclusive evidence against the Christian God that is anywhere near the conclusive evidence against Creationism.

And the majority of Christians that hang out here are Creationists, and this is the Creation/Evolution forum, so I think the OP is about Creationism and not Christianity in general.

And what is "evolutionary Christian science"?
 
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razeontherock

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Stop being so sensitive. The OP is about adhering to a belief even when it is shown to be false.

No one has conclusively shown your God to not exist (it's impossible to do so anyway), but people have conclusively shown Creationism to be false. So this thread applies more to Creationism than Christianity.

Except the person that is the OP makes no such distinction, and acts the same way about any and every belief within Christianity, (as though it's been shown to be false) even after demonstrating the specific topic he bashes is something he has no grasp of. So ya gotta factor that in ...
 
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razeontherock

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Indeed. A book that mentions a talking snake, man walking on the water, wine turning into wine, a sea that splits open (and later engulfs an entire army) doesn't sound very credible. If the god protrayed in it sends two bears killing 42 children just for mocking a prophet, then that god isn't a very moral god. The attitude of the same god vis a vis Job isn't very honorable either. And the same book portays as the most moral man Lot, who gives his two daughters to a raping mod. No thanks. I have higher standards of morality.
But look at it the other way: a day has only 24 hours. So I have to spend my time well: 7 hours of sleep, daily job, kleening the house, sex with my girlfriend, reading books and posting silly things on the internet. If you want me to make time for the bible, you 'll have to convince me.
No, reading Scripture is not the beginning. You, I, everybody must first have a reason to even consider reading it. You can't say "read the scripture, we talk later".; You 'll have to talk first.
And by your own claim, that can't be that difficult. As you wrote:


As you can guess from my faith icon, I value rationality very high. It's your big chance.

You're not going to be able to listen to my reasons for knowing the Truth. If you want to understand why not, perhaps the quickest way would be to google something called "beautific vision." I can't give that to you!

What is squarely in my domain, is to give reasons for the Hope that is within me; quite a big difference, eh? (And those details are not pertinent to this thread)
 
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razeontherock

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Ok, ... I would like you to read only the gospels, and make an outline of the concepts that you see being brought out. Reason: To decide if they have any personal value for you.

then I would also like you to really listen to what Jesus said, and notice his sarcasm. Reason: Because it is fun and will make you laugh.

Do you recommend a certain version, available online, that is modern and readily understandable?
 
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Reine

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A lot of Christians do, especially outside the US. I don't think anyone here would argue that there is conclusive evidence against the Christian God that is anywhere near the conclusive evidence against Creationism.

And the majority of Christians that hang out here are Creationists, and this is the Creation/Evolution forum, so I think the OP is about Creationism and not Christianity in general.

And what is "evolutionary Christian science"?
Oh, well I didn't know that the Christians posting here did not believe evolution to be true... I think they are scientist that believe in God, but believe that evolution was put in place by God. A friend of mine is RickG. He is a Christian, but taught science for many years. IMO he is an expert in the field of science. You could look up where he is currently posting and read some of what he is writing. He knows his stuff :)
 
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Reine

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Do you recommend a certain version, available online, that is modern and readily understandable?
Here are two sites online where someone can choose whatever version they want: Online Bible Concordances: Topical, Strong's, Greek and Hebrew SearchGodsWord.org, Bible study resources from HeartLight.org
You can also check out the original languages. I guess I see the humor in the words of Jesus, ... like telling the Pharisees they made their converts twice as deserving to get thrown into the local dump for burning trash, than they themseves were. Of course in order to know this, one would have to go back to the original word Gehenna.
 
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N

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G-d is not above being scrutinized; He stands up to that very well.
Of course Gods stands up to scrutiny because Gods can not be pinned down, the Unicorn also stands up to scrutiny as does Allah, Zeus, Thor and every God that was ever devised.

I'll ask a few questions about God,
Where is God? everywhere.
What does God look like? No one knows what God looks like.
Then how do you know God is there? If you believe in God then you know.
Does God answer prayers? If you believe God answers prayers then God will answer prayers.

Questions bounce off deities because there's nothing there to hit and before you can believe in God you must first believe in God.
Before the Holy Spirit can come into your heart you must first believe that there is such a thing as the Holy Spirit,
if you don't believe in the Holy Spirit you will never be saved.

In other word before you can believe that I'm not telling you lies you must first believe that I'm not telling you lies,
if you believe that I'm telling you lies you will never believe me.
Those who think I am telling lies can leave now, the rest can stay and be saved.
Classic con man tactics from around the world perfected over many many years of fooling people both smart and dumb.
 
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Reine

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Of course Gods stands up to scrutiny because Gods can not be pinned down, the Unicorn also stands up to scrutiny as does Allah, Zeus, Thor and every God that was ever devised.

I'll ask a few questions about God,
Where is God? everywhere.
What does God look like? No one knows what God looks like.
Then how do you know God is there? If you believe in God then you know.
Does God answer prayers? If you believe God answers prayers then God will answer prayers.

Questions bounce off deities because there's nothing there to hit and before you can believe in God you must first believe in God.
Before the Holy Spirit can come into your heart you must first believe that there is such a thing as the Holy Spirit,
if you don't believe in the Holy Spirit you will never be saved.

In other word before you can believe that I'm not telling you lies you must first believe that I'm not telling you lies,
if you believe that I'm telling you lies you will never believe me.
Those who think I am telling lies can leave now, the rest can stay and be saved.
Classic con man tactics from around the world perfected over many many years of fooling people both smart and dumb.
If you really want to know the answers to some of your questions, learn how to do Lucid Dreaming. Ask your questions to God and he will answer you.
 
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razeontherock

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Here are two sites online where someone can choose whatever version they want: Online Bible Concordances: Topical, Strong's, Greek and Hebrew SearchGodsWord.org, Bible study resources from HeartLight.org
You can also check out the original languages. I guess I see the humor in the words of Jesus, ... like telling the Pharisees they made their converts twice as deserving to get thrown into the local dump for burning trash, than they themseves were. Of course in order to know this, one would have to go back to the original word Gehenna.

I agree, Jesus has quite the advanced sense of humor! Rather than adding the two links I normally use, let me point all this can be overwhelming to a noob, and try to refer a "good" version. GW for God's Word, is one available on your second link, heartlight. I've never read it, (yet) but we have some serious researchers on CF, and one person who's had a career in this area says this is one of the 2 best versions available now, (in the genre of trying to relate original meaning in concept for concept form, rather than word for word) the other one not being complete.

Of course some passages will still present difficulties, and a useful tool is to look at it from a version from the other camp, using the word for word approach. ESV (English Standard Version) is widely held to be very good for this, heartlight doesn't have it, but they do have NASB as default which is also very good among this category. (They just call it New American Standard, pretty sure that's the same thing?)

Hope that might help somebody here.
 
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razeontherock

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Of course Gods stands up to scrutiny because Gods can not be pinned down, the Unicorn also stands up to scrutiny as does Allah, Zeus, Thor and every God that was ever devised.

I'll ask a few questions about God,
Where is God? everywhere.
What does God look like? No one knows what God looks like.
Then how do you know God is there? If you believe in God then you know.
Does God answer prayers? If you believe God answers prayers then God will answer prayers.

Questions bounce off deities because there's nothing there to hit and before you can believe in God you must first believe in God.
Before the Holy Spirit can come into your heart you must first believe that there is such a thing as the Holy Spirit,
if you don't believe in the Holy Spirit you will never be saved.

In other word before you can believe that I'm not telling you lies you must first believe that I'm not telling you lies,
if you believe that I'm telling you lies you will never believe me.
Those who think I am telling lies can leave now, the rest can stay and be saved.
Classic con man tactics from around the world perfected over many many years of fooling people both smart and dumb.

Ya feel better now? :confused:

What you describe is dissed by G-d also, so you're in good company.
 
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J

Jazer

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What does God look like? No one knows what God looks like.

17And the LORD said to Moses, “I will do the very thing you have asked, because I am pleased with you and I know you by name.”

18Then Moses said, “Now show me your glory.”

19And the LORD said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”

21Then the LORD said, “There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. 22When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen.”
 
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Lion Hearted Man

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Oh, well I didn't know that the Christians posting here did not believe evolution to be true... I think they are scientist that believe in God, but believe that evolution was put in place by God. A friend of mine is RickG. He is a Christian, but taught science for many years. IMO he is an expert in the field of science. You could look up where he is currently posting and read some of what he is writing. He knows his stuff :)

Yeah, there are a good number of Creationists here. Raze, Jazer, AV1611VET, Doveaman, etc. There are a handful of Christians who accept evolution who post here, but sadly they don't post often enough. So on the surface it usually looks like a "Christians vs. atheists" battle, when most of the time it's "fundamentalist Creationist Christians vs. moderate science-accepting people".

You should encourage more of your Christian friends who accept science and evolution to post!

Except the person that is the OP makes no such distinction, and acts the same way about any and every belief within Christianity, (as though it's been shown to be false) even after demonstrating the specific topic he bashes is something he has no grasp of. So ya gotta factor that in ...

We're in the Creation and Evolution forum. How hard is it to make the connection?
 
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Reine

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Yeah, there are a good number of Creationists here. Raze, Jazer, AV1611VET, Doveaman, etc. There are a handful of Christians who accept evolution who post here, but sadly they don't post often enough. So on the surface it usually looks like a "Christians vs. atheists" battle, when most of the time it's "fundamentalist Creationist Christians vs. moderate science-accepting people".

You should encourage more of your Christian friends who accept science and evolution to post!



We're in the Creation and Evolution forum. How hard is it to make the connection?
I guess I am still looking at the Duck :/ ... but I'll message Rick and see if he'll come over and give his two cents :)
 
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