National Secular Society threatens legal action over parking privilege for Christians

ianb321red

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Provide me some examples of what you consider Christian persecution (in the UK) that encompasses both spiritual and/or physical attacks..

Persecution is the mistreatment of an individual or group by another group. Therefore, whether the means of persecution is physical or spiritual it makes no difference to the magnitude of the persecution itself.

Globally speaking Christians are the most persecuted religious group in the world. This has been in the news on many occasions over the past couple of years – most recently just 3 days ago at the annual United Nations General Assembly general debate.

In terms of Europe and the UK, the persecution is primarily spiritual. As this is where we come back to the original topic of conversation – Secularism. Although Christianity is the largest religious group in the UK they are clearly a minority relative to the population of the whole country. So we are a minority group.

There are plenty of examples of persecution of Christians in the UK. I personally know people who have lost their jobs due to their Christian faith. There are numerous examples of people of loose their jobs because they are wearing Christian crosses and have been asked to remove them because they “might offend people”.

My uncle lost his job as a hospital porter because he refused because of his Christian faith to take women who were about to have abortions to the operating theatre.

People are apparently “offended” by Christmas now – so local councils are having Winter Festivals instead. Easter in the popular media is celebrated using Easter Bunnies & eggs – not a mention of Jesus Christ suffering a brutal, bloody and premature death and then being raised 3 days later.

I very frequently come across blasphemous content in the advertising world, and also on tv programmes shown well before the 9:00pm watershed. Christians are expected to turn the other cheek if there is something insulting about our Lord. If something was broadcast that was insulting to Islam they’d be a Fatwa on some tv producers head?

Legislation is putting enormous pressure on Christians to be “tolerant” to sections of society, yet is this attitude equally reciprocated? In my honest opinion, no it isn’t. Where I work I have to be tolerant to all sections of society within the workplace whether it goes against my religious beliefs or not. I can get in to trouble if I voiced my true feelings based on my faith on gender realignment or homosexuality. But isn’t this intolerant to my Christian belief?

If I want to raise money for a good cause my employer will match what I raise as long as the good cause isn’t a religious one. Why?

There is also persecution of Christians from within the church in the UK. There is false teaching going on (and I know of places where this is happening) which is ultimately causing Christians to loose their faith and reject Christianity. This is made abundantly clear to us in Acts 22:28-30 and 1 Timothy 4:1-2,6

Why is this happening? Because of the influence of a Secular society seeping in to the Church. The church now paints a compromised and confused picture for people both inside and outside the church. What is the clear biblical position on gay clergy, women clergy, gay marriage, divorce and so on?

As far as I’m concerned the church should be leading this country uphill rather than following it downhill.

There are many more examples of persecution I could reel off, but I am actually surprised that I need to spell this out to other Christians? Do you actually live in the UK? You mentioned in one of your early comments that Secularism has been on the fringes for the past 40-50 years – and you are quite right. And look where we’ve ended up…

The battle in this country is for the mind, therefore it is spiritual persecution NOT physical. It’s very subtle and a lot of Christians in this country right now are falling for it I’m afraid...
 
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non-religious

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[ianb321red]Persecution is the mistreatment of an individual or group by another group. Therefore, whether the means of persecution is physical or spiritual it makes no difference to the magnitude of the persecution itself.
I'm just looking for specific examples of "spiritual" persecution...
Globally speaking Christians are the most persecuted religious group in the world. This has been in the news on many occasions over the past couple of years – most recently just 3 days ago at the annual United Nations General Assembly general debate.
I don't, nor have ever, disputed the fact that Christians are being persecuted in many parts of the world...

In terms of Europe and the UK, the persecution is primarily spiritual. As this is where we come back to the original topic of conversation – Secularism. Although Christianity is the largest religious group in the UK they are clearly a minority relative to the population of the whole country. So we are a minority group.
Again with this term "spiritual", I'm looking for specifics.....

There are plenty of examples of persecution of Christians in the UK. I personally know people who have lost their jobs due to their Christian faith. There are numerous examples of people of loose their jobs because they are wearing Christian crosses and have been asked to remove them because they “might offend people”.
Where? There was recently a media frenzy about this because a lady who worked as a air hostess wanted to wear her cross, but was asked not to, due to uniform policy. I think it is too easy to blow these stories way out of proportion and then claim that this is just the tip of the iceberg. The "I know somebody" argument doesn't constitute persecution on a grand scale..
People are apparently “offended” by Christmas now – so local councils are having Winter Festivals instead. Easter in the popular media is celebrated using Easter Bunnies & eggs – not a mention of Jesus Christ suffering a brutal, bloody and premature death and then being raised 3 days later.
That has absolutely nothing to do with persecution and everything to do with living in and appeasing a largely secular constituent. You will celebrate specific Christian days in a totally different way to many other groups/faiths etc.. That is part of what makes society different. However, I do agree that the re-naming of certain festivals/dates is both an entire waste of money and time, but perhaps certain councils have more time and resources than others. I'm not sure why anyone would be surprised by such actions in this day and age.. As a Christian I recognize how important the resurrection story is, but I don't expect commercial businesses, councils, elected politicians and the average Joe on the street to view Easter in terms of a brutal crucifixion and risen Lord and Saviour, even though many obviously do..
I very frequently come across blasphemous content in the advertising world, and also on tv programmes shown well before the 9:00pm watershed. Christians are expected to turn the other cheek if there is something insulting about our Lord. If something was broadcast that was insulting to Islam they’d be a Fatwa on some tv producers head?
So then as a Christian, be proud of the fact you don't respond like an extreme minority of Islamic fundamentalists would. What on earth does the watershed have to do with persecuting Christians? It all comes back to the O.P. This is a society driven by a largely ungodly, fleshly and worldly outlook (secularism encompasses many of those traits). The fact that you as a believer can switch off the television or refuse to listen to people mocking Jesus and in a sense turn the other cheek, aptly demonstrates a level of maturity in your faith. You're in effect doing as Christ instructed. That's something to be commended...

Legislation is putting enormous pressure on Christians to be “tolerant” to sections of society, yet is this attitude equally reciprocated? In my honest opinion, no it isn’t. Where I work I have to be tolerant to all sections of society within the workplace whether it goes against my religious beliefs or not. I can get in to trouble if I voiced my true feelings based on my faith on gender realignment or homosexuality. But isn’t this intolerant to my Christian belief?
This argument is deeply flawed. If I as a white male (I'm not, by the way) hold views and deep seated opinions on issues relating to my dislike of minorities and had to work alongside said minorities. I would have to tolerant, would have to show some level of respect and would, like you, expect that level of tolerance to be reciprocated. Even though I strongly disagree with minorities as a people. If I stated to my boss that I don't want to work alongside black people, I would get fired immediately. In other words, as human beings we have to be tolerant of differing belief systems and ideologies. We can find them repugnant, abhorrent, fascinating etc... but no-one should want to go around their place of work, university etc.. exposing their dislike for specific things, Knowing it will upset and offend others.

I appreciate in relation to one's faith that can be difficult, but are you suggesting that there shouldn't be homosexuals in your workplace? Are you suggesting that you should be able to tell "somebody" that your not happy or disapproving of homosexuals? I'm really not getting what you're so unhappy about here...

If I want to raise money for a good cause my employer will match what I raise as long as the good cause isn’t a religious one. Why?
Because your employer holds a different world view to you? Why offended by that?


There is also persecution of Christians from within the church in the UK. There is false teaching going on (and I know of places where this is happening) which is ultimately causing Christians to loose their faith and reject Christianity. This is made abundantly clear to us in Acts 22:28-30 and 1 Timothy 4:1-2,6

Why is this happening? Because of the influence of a Secular society seeping in to the Church. The church now paints a compromised and confused picture for people both inside and outside the church. What is the clear biblical position on gay clergy, women clergy, gay marriage, divorce and so on?
That's a good point, but I'm not sure secularism is at fault here. This is more to do with how people interpret scripture, view Jesus and live their lives.. I do believe scripture is clear cut about these issues, but I can't speak for those who are homosexual and Christian. They can face enough discrimination as it is, without the Church also be being openly hostile..


There are many more examples of persecution I could reel off, but I am actually surprised that I need to spell this out to other Christians? Do you actually live in the UK? You mentioned in one of your early comments that Secularism has been on the fringes for the past 40-50 years – and you are quite right. And look where we’ve ended up…
Maybe I missed the memo, but where have we ended up? You have given a couple of instances of what I consider nothing more than propaganda. You haven't even remotely described how "spiritual", let alone physical, persecution has impacted detrimentally upon Christians in the UK. A few local newspaper articles here and there, a comment about the ridiculous name changing of certain "Christian" events, the old "I know someone" routine and the state of the Church.. I requested specifics and all you have done is pontificate about television, your lack of being able to voice your opinion (which I find somewhat misleading) and an old news story about a woman not being able to wear a piece of jewellery..

All of the above only highlights the consequences of living in a secular society. There are a multitude of reasons for why the Church is dealing with these issues. I have left Churches because of poor teaching, I celebrate Easter as a Christian, I am tolerant of others, to the point of being respectful, even when I could so easily articulate my opinions. I don't take offense when someone doesn't believe in Jesus or feels the need to mock my faith. As I previously mentioned, imo there are bigger issues.
The battle in this country is for the mind, therefore it is spiritual persecution NOT physical. It’s very subtle and a lot of Christians in this country right now are falling for it I’m afraid...
Yep, hook, line and sinker :)
 
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ianb321red

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To start off with, I’ll start by saying that I’ll ignore your first 3 comments as I don't think you'd read the whole of my post by this point??...

Where? There was recently a media frenzy about this because a lady who worked as a air hostess wanted to wear her cross, but was asked not to, due to uniform policy. I think it is too easy to blow these stories way out of proportion and then claim that this is just the tip of the iceberg. The "I know somebody" argument doesn't constitute persecution on a grand scale..

Firstly, I didn’t say that Christians were being persecuted on a “grand scale” in the UK? The problem of persecution is no bigger than one single person being persecuted. One person being persecuted is as bad as 50 people being persecuted to that individual. It is not a problem that multiplies in numbers; it is an essentially individual problem. So we need to get a sense of proportion here. Therefore, your critique of my so called “I know someone” argument, I can't really accept...

That has absolutely nothing to do with persecution and everything to do with living in and appeasing a largely secular constituent. You will celebrate specific Christian days in a totally different way to many other groups/faiths etc.. That is part of what makes society different. However, I do agree that the re-naming of certain festivals/dates is both an entire waste of money and time, but perhaps certain councils have more time and resources than others. I'm not sure why anyone would be surprised by such actions in this day and age.. As a Christian I recognize how important the resurrection story is, but I don't expect commercial businesses, councils, elected politicians and the average Joe on the street to view Easter in terms of a brutal crucifixion and risen Lord and Saviour, even though many obviously do..

I understand your point, but I don’t agree with you because you fail to assess the true underlying motives behind these actions. I didn’t say everyone should be forced to participate in them, but people have no right to be offended by the mere existence Christian festivals! And why should Christians have to be concerned with appeasing others? People have the right to ignore the festivals and not celebrate then but NOT to remove them completely. There is a difference…

So then as a Christian, be proud of the fact you don't respond like an extreme minority of Islamic fundamentalists would. What on earth does the watershed have to do with persecuting Christians? It all comes back to the O.P. This is a society driven by a largely ungodly, fleshly and worldly outlook (secularism encompasses many of those traits). The fact that you as a believer can switch off the television or refuse to listen to people mocking Jesus and in a sense turn the other cheek, aptly demonstrates a level of maturity in your faith. You're in effect doing as Christ instructed. That's something to be commended...

It has everything with not having my kids watching ADVERTS at 5pm that contain blasphemous language, on the assumption that "O.M.G" isn’t offensive – which it is. Therefore it has everything to do with not offending Christians. Therefore it is wanting the same treatment for Christians as those who are offended by Christmas or Easter. Therefore, as this is absent, this is the mistreating of a group (Christians) by another group (non Christians) which is called persecution.

This argument is deeply flawed. If I as a white male (I'm not, by the way) hold views and deep seated opinions on issues relating to my dislike of minorities and had to work alongside said minorities. I would have to tolerant, would have to show some level of respect and would, like you, expect that level of tolerance to be reciprocated. Even though I strongly disagree with minorities as a people. If I stated to my boss that I don't want to work alongside black people, I would get fired immediately. In other words, as human beings we have to be tolerant of differing belief systems and ideologies. We can find them repugnant, abhorrent, fascinating etc... but no-one should want to go around their place of work, university etc.. exposing their dislike for specific things,

Knowing it will upset and offend others. I appreciate in relation to one's faith that can be difficult, but are you suggesting that there shouldn't be homosexuals in your workplace? Are you suggesting that you should be able to tell "somebody" that your not happy or disapproving of homosexuals? I'm really not getting what you're so unhappy about here...


I don’t think my argument is deeply flawed. Firstly, you’ve possibly misunderstood my comment – I’ve got no problems with homosexuals what-so-ever. But my original post was clear enough, so I’m not going to repeat myself....sorry

Because your employer holds a different world view to you? Why offended by that?

I didn’t say I was offended by this – it was merely an observation. But actually, in hindsight I accept my employer needs to remain neutral on this, so fair enough.


That's a good point, but I'm not sure secularism is at fault here. This is more to do with how people interpret scripture, view Jesus and live their lives.. I do believe scripture is clear cut about these issues, but I can't speak for those who are homosexual and Christian. They can face enough discrimination as it is, without the Church also be being openly hostile..


Maybe I missed the memo, but where have we ended up? You have given a couple of instances of what I consider nothing more than propaganda. You haven't even remotely described how "spiritual", let alone physical, persecution has impacted detrimentally upon Christians in the UK. A few local newspaper articles here and there, a comment about the ridiculous name changing of certain "Christian" events, the old "I know someone" routine and the state of the Church.. I requested specifics and all you have done is pontificate about television, your lack of being able to voice your opinion (which I find somewhat misleading) and an old news story about a woman not being able to wear a piece of jewellery..

Where have we ended up? I voiced my view on Christian persecution in the UK; albeit a very brief snapshot. Don’t get me wrong – if you don’t agree with me then that’s fine. I’m happy to debate and voice my opinions,but to be honest my underlying intention is to unite amongst Christians over these issues, not divide them...

All of the above only highlights the consequences of living in a secular society. There are a multitude of reasons for why the Church is dealing with these issues. I have left Churches because of poor teaching, I celebrate Easter as a Christian, I am tolerant of others, to the point of being respectful, even when I could so easily articulate my opinions. I don't take offense when someone doesn't believe in Jesus or feels the need to mock my faith. As I previously mentioned, imo there are bigger issues.
Yep, hook, line and sinker :)[/QUOTE]


So you're not offended by blasphemous content on tv?
And what are the bigger issues in your opinion?
 
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non-religious

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There is really no need to for me to comment on your responses because you failed to address my specific questions. So I'll make this my last input here....

The "I know someone" argument is usually used to make a (singular) incident appear as something more prevelant. It doesn't work like that.

You and I know that secularists have an agenda, one which I would suggest is not particularly subtle at all. In re to my personal life and that of people I know, they pose no threat to our rights or faith. If you choose to be offended by words or you are concerned about flesh on television, turn over the channel or cease watching. It seems you're actually seeking more protection for your beliefs than anyone else (the irony).

Finally, you stated, quite categorically that "Where I work I have to be tolerant to all sections of society within the workplace whether it goes against my religious beliefs or not." and when challenged on this, had nothing to say. You act as if you're the only one who has to remain tolerant of others. That is an incredulously weak argument. You even had the audacity to question the persecution faced by Muslims here in UK/Europe by appearing to state that you're not necessarily sure it is any worse than what Christians face.

One final point. If you're going to watch television after the watershed, try Newsnight and before 9pm try Channel 4 news. Perhaps your knowledge of such matters would expedentially increase, who knows?

I give up, had a nice day :)
 
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ianb321red

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I give up, had a nice day :)[/QUOTE]

Why give up? Because I didn't answer every single one of your questions from your previous thread? Or because we don't agree? The truth is that, as Christians, we most probably agree on more than we disagree..

There's probably been some misunderstanding from some of what I've written - and I apologise if I have been unclear or have failed to answer your question(s)...

I am open minded enough to take on board what people are saying and change my opinions - I greatly value your and others comments on this thread.

I have learnt a good deal from this thread, and although some of the tone of the comments is slightly abrubt from certain posters, on the whole it has been a interesting thread.

Plus, I still want to know what the bigger issues are from your point of view.

ps - what was that specific question again??
 
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welshman

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Just from the outside looking in as it were...what exactly do you define as "spiritual persecution"???

There is no doubt Muslims are being persecuted across Europe to some degree. Especially in places like France which is probably the most militant secular country in Europe (with us not far behind). What I would say is this...I think people have more right to be afraid of a religion which clearly states that if an individual does not convert to their religion they should be executed. There may be people on here who will say that is just "spin" or not representative of Muslims, but that is what the Quran teaches. I have quite a few books on the subject by ex-Muslims who have been saved in Christ Jesus and they will tell you themselves. I'm digressing...

Whether it be through secularism or whatever...subtly, our rights to express our faith is being eroded. To say otherwise is wrong. We are not thankfully being killed for our faith in other countries, but the devil is not stupid...if he can blind the minds of believers through secularism he will.

I have just gone back again to college again, this time to do my social work degree...and virtually everything my lecturer comes out with, whether that be politics, psychology etc is anti-biblical e.g. there are no absolutes, no right and wrong, the world would be a better place if communism ruled the land...it goes on and on.

That is how this country is being brainwashed...subtly, by atheists, communists, secularists, humanists...teaching the future generations that God is no longer important and there is no need for Him as man makes the rules.

Anyway; that's just my opinion...and I have digressed...AGAIN LOL
 
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non-religious

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[ianb321red;]
I still want to know what the bigger issues are from your point of view.
As Christians, although not exclusively, issues relating to social injustice, taking care of the oppressed and needy, being that light in darkness (and all that entails) being a good witness, issues re the growth of certain false teachings (word of faith etc..), forgiveness, compassion etc...

Some of which may sound lofty and unrealistic, but I feel are of equal and even more importance. I'm not suggesting we cower in a corner and let people remove our rights as Christians, but I guess my concern is that we shouldn't allow these things to take the place of more pressing issues. Let's be aware of them and remain vigilant and when necessary, demonstrate our opposition.

So I'm not dismissing your arguments, I'm just not seeing it as persecution per se or a real tangible threat.. (yet) :)

 
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welshman

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I have nothing but respect for your views on this...:thumbsup: What I would say is that while social injuctice, oppression, taking care of the needy are indeed noble causes; the fact is that the government and the country as a whole are stripping away our rights as Christians to get to the heart of the matter...being able to proclaim the gospel.

You see, it doesn't matter how many walls we paint or flip-flops that we hand out to clubbers on the streets...nothing will get solved, fixed or mended in "broken Britain" until people turn to Christ. It is this very thing that is being stopped. Street Pastors have become very popular lately in the UK, and I myself have taken part (well...gone to see how they are run with a friend of mine who helps out)...while the cause is noble: handing out flip-flops, water etc...none of that will make a difference because they are stopped from telling people about needing to be "saved" as the schemes are being funded by local councils...and they don't like the phrase "I am THE way, THE truth..." Those taking part are not allowed to talk about "heaven and hell" because it is "too divisive".

Another project "Sporting Marvels" operates in schools near me, and I was asked to join the team by a friend of mine. They do a lot of hard work teaching kids respect, discipline etc but they do not preach the gospel. So, in my mind all these projects (as noble as they are) are just papering over the cracks because those taking part cannot preach that Christ is the only way to heaven...which to my mind is THE only way this country will fix injustice, oppression, poverty etc.:preach:

Not sure if all of that makes sense? Anyway...as far as I am aware, it is illegal now for people to say that Christ is "the way, the truth...etc" now under EU law. At least, that is what I have been told. It's not enforced to my knowledge...but I am 99% sure that this is the case. Scary stuff.

As Christians, although not exclusively, issues relating to social injustice, taking care of the oppressed and needy, being that light in darkness (and all that entails) being a good witness, issues re the growth of certain false teachings (word of faith etc..), forgiveness, compassion etc...

Some of which may sound lofty and unrealistic, but I feel are of equal and even more importance. I'm not suggesting we cower in a corner and let people remove our rights as Christians, but I guess my concern is that we shouldn't allow these things to take the place of more pressing issues. Let's be aware of them and remain vigilant and when necessary, demonstrate our opposition.

So I'm not dismissing your arguments, I'm just not seeing it as persecution per se or a real tangible threat.. (yet) :)
 
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non-religious

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[welshman;]Just from the outside looking in as it were...what exactly do you define as "spiritual persecution"???
You tell me...

There is no doubt Muslims are being persecuted across Europe to some degree. Especially in places like France which is probably the most militant secular country in Europe (with us not far behind). What I would say is this...I think people have more right to be afraid of a religion which clearly states that if an individual does not convert to their religion they should be executed. There may be people on here who will say that is just "spin" or not representative of Muslims, but that is what the Quran teaches. I have quite a few books on the subject by ex-Muslims who have been saved in Christ Jesus and they will tell you themselves. I'm digressing...
Yeah, I guess my bringing this into the discussion has caused it to digress. I used Islam as an example, regardless of how one feels about the teachings, because Muslims are overwhelmingly peaceful and law abiding citizens. Yet it is these same people who are experiencing the backlash from all groups. So they are literally facing a form of persecution.

Whether it be through secularism or whatever...subtly, our rights to express our faith is being eroded. To say otherwise is wrong. We are not thankfully being killed for our faith in other countries, but the devil is not stupid...if he can blind the minds of believers through secularism he will.
Herein lies the problem. When you say "our" who specifically? Because I would be absolutely convinced that the majority of practicing Christians in the UK do not feel as though their rights are being eroded. Equally, when you say rights what specific rights? The right to worship, the right to preach, the right to send your child to a faith school? Your right to celebrate Christian events/days? Your rights to get married and have one partner? Your rights to spend your money where you want, on what you want? And your right to protest?

All of which you already, freely enjoy. There are probably many more I could mention. So when you make the argument, I believe you're making this false assumption that if it affects the few, it affects the majority. Clearly not true. When say the devil can blind the minds of believers through the use of secularism, what specifically do you mean? How? give me examples...

I have just gone back again to college again, this time to do my social work degree...and virtually everything my lecturer comes out with, whether that be politics, psychology etc is anti-biblical e.g. there are no absolutes, no right and wrong, the world would be a better place if communism ruled the land...it goes on and on.
So just like ianb321red's employer, your lecturer is someone who is anti-biblical or perhaps a non-believer. So why be at all surprised by what he/she states? And how does that in any way represent either a form of persecution or the rise of secularism?

That is how this country is being brainwashed...subtly, by atheists, communists, secularists, humanists...teaching the future generations that God is no longer important and there is no need for Him as man makes the rules.
This line of thinking has existed within classrooms for generations. We are a largely secularist society. Christians are a remnant, the gate is narrow. You probably know and appreciate those verses more than me. Many will grow cold etc.. the Bible is littered with references re how small the believers are in numbers and how they will get even smaller. So if your neighbor, your dentist and your local green grocer are all non-believers, does that mean you should no longer have your teeth fixed, have small talk over the garden fence or get your five a day? Of course not, just like you will continue with your studies and learn from this heretic ;) and go on with your life. Those things should not equate somehow to an eroding of our faith or rights. I have already asked way to many questions and perhaps they're questions that cannot be answered. I have asked anyway in the hope that one day lol.....

I was considering a career in social work prior to starting my nurse training many yrs ago and have a couple of friends who are in the field. We certainly need them. All the best with your studies :)
 
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welshman

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Without being condescending...weren't you the one who wanted examples of "spiritual" persecution? I just asked what you meant by that :)

Plus...what do you make of what I said regarding the Christian ministries I mentioned that are not allowed to preach Jesus is "the only way"? :preach:
You tell me...

Yeah, I guess my bringing this into the discussion has caused it to digress. I used Islam as an example, regardless of how one feels about the teachings, because Muslims are overwhelmingly peaceful and law abiding citizens. Yet it is these same people who are experiencing the backlash from all groups. So they are literally facing a form of persecution.

Herein lies the problem. When you say "our" who specifically? Because I would be absolutely convinced that the majority of practicing Christians in the UK do not feel as though their rights are being eroded. Equally, when you say rights what specific rights? The right to worship, the right to preach, the right to send your child to a faith school? Your right to celebrate Christian events/days? Your rights to get married and have one partner? Your rights to spend your money where you want, on what you want? And your right to protest?

All of which you already, freely enjoy. There are probably many more I could mention. So when you make the argument, I believe you're making this false assumption that if it affects the few, it affects the majority. Clearly not true. When say the devil can blind the minds of believers through the use of secularism, what specifically do you mean? How? give me examples...

So just like ianb321red's employer, your lecturer is someone who is anti-biblical or perhaps a non-believer. So why be at all surprised by what he/she states? And how does that in any way represent either a form of persecution or the rise of secularism?

This line of thinking has existed within classrooms for generations. We are a largely secularist society. Christians are a remnant, the gate is narrow. You probably know and appreciate those verses more than me. Many will grow cold etc.. the Bible is littered with references re how small the believers are in numbers and how they will get even smaller. So if your neighbor, your dentist and your local green grocer are all non-believers, does that mean you should no longer have your teeth fixed, have small talk over the garden fence or get your five a day? Of course not, just like you will continue with your studies and learn from this heretic ;) and go on with your life. Those things should not equate somehow to an eroding of our faith or rights. I have already asked way to many questions and perhaps they're questions that cannot be answered. I have asked anyway in the hope that one day lol.....

I was considering a career in social work prior to starting my nurse training many yrs ago and have a couple of friends who are in the field. We certainly need them. All the best with your studies :)
 
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ianb321red

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From the Seeking Truth website:

Persecution in the UK is happening by stealth via EU Equality Law (see opposite). Consider just a few of the many cases:

A Christian counsellor has been dismissed from Relate because he felt his obligation to give sex therapy to homosexual couples contradicted his Christian ethics.

A Christian minister has been removed from a community radio talk show because his statement that ‘Jesus is the only way’ offended some Muslim listeners.

A Christian policeman provoked unjustified anger in his local police force when he made a stand on his Christian beliefs regarding homosexuality. He was threatened with dismissal.

A Christian couple had to turn their hotel into a community center after they lost their income following a conversation with a Muslim woman. The Muslim accused the couple of criticizing Islam. A court found them not guilty of any offence but their business suffered.

A teacher was suspended after offering to pray for a student. "I am amazed that a country with such a strong Christian tradition has become a country where it is hard to speak about your faith."

A UK court ruled against a Christian employee of British Airways after she challenged the decision by her employer to ban her from wearing a visible cross at work.

A judge declared it was unlawful for two Christian guesthouse owners to deny a double room to a couple in a civil partnership. The judge ruled that under the Equality Act (Sexual Orientation) Regulations, civil partnerships must be treated in the same way as marriage.
 
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Genersis

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From the Seeking Truth website:

Persecution in the UK is happening by stealth via EU Equality Law (see opposite). Consider just a few of the many cases:

A Christian counsellor has been dismissed from Relate because he felt his obligation to give sex therapy to homosexual couples contradicted his Christian ethics.

A Christian minister has been removed from a community radio talk show because his statement that ‘Jesus is the only way’ offended some Muslim listeners.

A Christian policeman provoked unjustified anger in his local police force when he made a stand on his Christian beliefs regarding homosexuality. He was threatened with dismissal.

A Christian couple had to turn their hotel into a community center after they lost their income following a conversation with a Muslim woman. The Muslim accused the couple of criticizing Islam. A court found them not guilty of any offence but their business suffered.

A teacher was suspended after offering to pray for a student. "I am amazed that a country with such a strong Christian tradition has become a country where it is hard to speak about your faith."

A UK court ruled against a Christian employee of British Airways after she challenged the decision by her employer to ban her from wearing a visible cross at work.

A judge declared it was unlawful for two Christian guesthouse owners to deny a double room to a couple in a civil partnership. The judge ruled that under the Equality Act (Sexual Orientation) Regulations, civil partnerships must be treated in the same way as marriage.
Ok.
In order:

1. Lawful. If he doesn't want to help gay and lesbian couples, then he can't do his job properly. It's understandable not all, i'm assuming, sex consolers have the anatomical knowledge to help homosexual couples in such matters, but to refuse to do your job on religious grounds alone is not.

2. Hard to say. Perhaps he was insulting of other religions while getting the message across? I doubt it was just those five words which got him removed. But if that was all he said, then it was unlawful.

3. Not enough info.

4. Lawful. They were found innocent, but their business suffered. I doubt this Muslim had much control over their clientèle so i don't see the connection.

5. Not enough info. The way it is worded make's it sound like the teacher is innocent, but then, the site you took it from probably did that on purpose.
It's impossible to say with out knowing exactly what was said and the circumstances.

6. Lawful. The same goes for all religious symbols to my knowledge. As well as jewellery in general. I could be wrong.

7. Lawful. Unless it was explicitly stated somewhere in the hotel as a rule.
Even then, i'm not sure if hotels which offer a place to stay to the public has the right to discriminate on account of personal convictions, This is what the main debate was on when this happened a while back in...Brighton?

That my analysis of your examples.
I'm not saying being discriminated against because of being a Christian doesn't happen. :(
Just that i don't feel all of your examples can be counted as such.:)
 
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theFijian

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The Lord talked about the fig-tree (if I remember right...I'm almost falling asleep doing a sleepover for the youth so forgive me lol) blossoming. This was speaking of Israel. They once again became a nation in the 1940's which leaves no other Biblical prophecy left to be fulfilled...until the Lord returns.
Except that the modern secular state of Israel plays no part in Biblical prophesy.
That excites me as I see things happening in the world which suggest that His return is near...very soon. Maybe not in my lifetime...because "no man knoweth the hour" (not even Christ)...but soon? Yes, probably.
What never ceases to amaze me is the myopia of Christians who think that others christians through the centuries have not been thinking exactly the same thing as they with regards to Christ's return. What about the very early church in Rome who suffered persecution the likes of which we have no idea? Revelation was written directly to them so why would they have been wrong about Christ's return yet you should be correct?
Some of the other things happening such as the global financial crisis, the emergence of the EU, UN etc and global government is also an indicator (I feel) for when the Lord returns for the church and it signals the signing of the peace treaty made by the anti-christ
(if you take scripture "literally"...that is unless the scripture is clearly telling us that something is symbolic etc).
Where is the EU literally referenced in scripture? Or the current global financial crisis (ha! What about the 1930s??) Or the UN? Where? To help you out, they aren't 'literally' in scripture. You have to spiritualise scripture, employ metaphors etc... in other words you have to read in non-literally! Ironic eh?
Hope this helps you see one interpretation that I personally believe in :thumbsup:
Yes a non-literal interpretation apparently as you actually have to read in non-literally to support your conclusions.
 
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welshman

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To make what I said a bit clearer...
Except that the modern secular state of Israel plays no part in Biblical prophesy.

That is your own personal interpretation to scripture (I take it in your interpretation that the church has replaced Israel?) Just like what I said is my own interpretation:thumbsup:

What never ceases to amaze me is the myopia of Christians who think that others christians through the centuries have not been thinking exactly the same thing as they with regards to Christ's return. What about the very early church in Rome who suffered persecution the likes of which we have no idea? Revelation was written directly to them so why would they have been wrong about Christ's return yet you should be correct?

No doubt many through the centuries have indeed been thinking about the Lord's return...it doesn't change the fact that we should be looking and "watching" (as Christ said)...Plus...from looking at world events and how I interpret scripture, I think it may very well be "soon". You are free to take a different stance if you wish.:thumbsup:
Where is the EU literally referenced in scripture? Or the current global financial crisis (ha! What about the 1930s??) Or the UN? Where? To help you out, they aren't 'literally' in scripture. You have to spiritualise scripture, employ metaphors etc... in other words you have to read in non-literally! Ironic eh?

I didn't say the EU was. If you read what I said...I stated that the EU, UN, financial crisis etc are "indicators" (not actual scripture) that will ultimately play out and possibly result in the Lord to rapture the church as the anti-christ will take over. This is a literal interpretation of prophecy. Some do not take these verses as being literal and have a slightly different take on it. Which you probably do. :)

Yes a non-literal interpretation apparently as you actually have to read in non-literally to support your conclusions.
Not so. Read what I said in my previous point.
 
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theFijian

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That is your own personal interpretation to scripture (I take it in your interpretation that the church has replaced Israel?) Just like what I said is my own interpretation
No, not replaced Israel, the Church IS Israel, the Church has always been Israel. But as you say, lets just all be happy with our own interpretation shall we?
This is a literal interpretation of prophecy
No it isn't, check the definition of the word literal. You are allegorising and reading metaphors into the text. Precisely the opposite of a literal interpretation.
Not so. Read what I said in my previous point.
Yes so, not a literal interpretation so much as a 'lets make stuff up to suit my personal take on the current geopolitical and socioeconomic state of affairs' interpretation.
 
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welshman

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For the record...
No, not replaced Israel, the Church IS Israel, the Church has always been Israel. But as you say, lets just all be happy with our own interpretation shall we?

Again, this is your own personal opinion and interpretation. Don't try and pretend it is scriptural fact. It isn't. :wave:My own opinion is that Israel (the Jews) and born-again believers are spoken of separately. Ultimately, you have gone with one particular opinion and so have I. If you feel that strongly about this issue, we can always debate both interpretations in another thread...otherwise it will derail what was the OP.

No it isn't, check the definition of the word literal. You are allegorising and reading metaphors into the text. Precisely the opposite of a literal interpretation.
What you have done is define my own definition of "literal". A good example is when Jesus told us to pluck our eye out if it causes us to sin. No-one does that. Not even people who "literally" interpret scripure. You look at the context it is written...which was eradicating sinful things from your life.:)

Yes so, not a literal interpretation so much as a 'lets make stuff up to suit my personal take on the current geopolitical and socioeconomic state of affairs' interpretation.
I can assure you I do not try and fit anything into scripture. Believe and make assumptions about me all you like:thumbsup::wave:
 
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theFijian

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Again, this is your own personal opinion and interpretation. Don't try and pretend it is scriptural fact. It isn't.
Which is your opinion. So...what exactly? Of course my interpretation is scriptural fact; why else would I hold it? Your interpretation is scripturally un-factual and poor exegesis.

What you have done is define my own definition of "literal".

Funny how post-modern some Christians get when it comes to biblical interpretation isn't it? Why don't we just all redefine terms to suit ourselves?
 
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welshman

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One thing I am definitely not is post-modern. Believe me. Anything but. :wave:

Sooooooo...what you say is fact (despite it being one interpretation of scripture) and anything else anyone else says is false?! I'm not going to comment any further. I guess I hold my own view (which is the opposite to yours) because I think it is scriptural fact. Why else would I hold my view?! See what I mean...it is not an established fact at all...just someone's opinion.

Again...if you want to debate the issue (which is not part of the OP) then feel free to let me know where you have started a new thread and we can discuss it there :)

Which is your opinion. So...what exactly? Of course my interpretation is scriptural fact; why else would I hold it? Your interpretation is scripturally un-factual and poor exegesis.



Funny how post-modern some Christians get when it comes to biblical interpretation isn't it? Why don't we just all redefine terms to suit ourselves?
 
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Genersis

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Just want to poke my head into this conversation quickly.

Many denominations have formed around interpreting the Bible differently.
All of them consider their interpretation to be right.

I think it's a good idea to acknowledge the fact that what one person thinks is scriptural fact, and what someone else thinks is scriptural fact can be two different things.
Neither one HAS to be right. As interpretation is all subjective.
You merely believe what you feel is the most correct interpretation.
Just sayin'. :)
 
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