A Parable about Age

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Lion Hearted Man

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Excuse me -- you guys are asking me the definition of 'age' -- not 'embedded age'.

I'm giving you the definition of 'age', as you asked.

For embedded age, you have to drop the history (because there isn't any).

That's why I define embedded age as 'maturity without history'.

A tree is 500 years old because it grew for 500 years; but a tree created ex nihilo with embedded age is 500 years old because it was given 500 years of maturity without history.

Do you have any Biblical support for this idea?
 
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AV1611VET

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I cannot comprehend how anyone can live like that...
Well, when you live in a little white room with everything having rounded edges and no ropes or anything allowed -- there isn't much I can do about it, is there?
 
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AV1611VET

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Do you have any Biblical support for this idea?
2 Peter 3:5a For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old,

Ecclesiastes 3:11a He hath made every thing beautiful in his time:
 
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How can it be billions of years old if it has only existed for 6000 years?
Depends on your perspective. Here is a photo of the universe at the very beginning of time.

deepfld.gif


Immediately after the Big Bang, as one might imagine, the universe was tremendously hot as a result of particles of both matter and antimatter rushing apart in all directions. As it began to cool, at around 10^-43 seconds after creation, there existed an almost equal yet asymmetrical amount of matter and antimatter. As these two materials are created together, they collide and destroy one another creating pure energy. Fortunately for us, there was an asymmetry in favor of matter. As a direct result of an excess of about one part per billion, the universe was able to mature in a way favorable for matter to persist. As the universe first began to expand, this discrepancy grew larger. The particles which began to dominate were those of matter. They were created and they decayed without the accompaniment of an equal creation or decay of an antiparticle.

As the universe expanded further, and thus cooled, common particles began to form. These particles are called baryons and include photons, neutrinos, electrons and quarks would become the building blocks of matter and life as we know it. During the baryon genesis period there were no recognizable heavy particles such as protons or neutrons because of the still intense heat. At this moment, there was only a quark soup. As the universe began to cool and expand even more, we begin to understand more clearly what exactly happened.
http://www.umich.edu/~gs265/bigbang.htm
 
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razeontherock

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So if there's no way to detect a difference between praying and not praying, doesn't that mean that prayer makes no difference in reality? So why do it?

the only thing you're saying here that even comes close to making sense, is that you personally have found no value in prayer, and therefore you don't pray. Even so, surely you can "detect a difference between praying and not praying." I mean, it doesn't take a highly accurate detector.

Okay, please show me how we determine the true will of the father. Objectively. Remember, we're sciencing here!

Stand back world, we're going to try science! ^_^ No, there is no objective measure here.

How does one measure fervor? And how does one measure effectiveness? How does one eliminate other factors?

So you do see my point. (I knew you could)

With no way to see how accurate the data gathered is, unfortunately.

True! This is precisely why the "one True Church" TM types grieve me so.

I thought you said we were sciencing here. Now you are saying we aren't?

The only reason i commented on a claim re: a studying researching the effectiveness of prayer, was to point out this is NOT science, and the results can't be meaningful.
 
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Lion Hearted Man

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2 Peter 3:5a For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old,

Ecclesiastes 3:11a He hath made every thing beautiful in his time:

Neither of these passages imply maturity without history. You're adding that to these passages. Remember...

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book
 
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Nathan Poe

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Right here:


All you've really done here is speak based on your own experience; or rather, I should say, inexperience.

So, you're able to provide an example of objective reality being altered by prayer?

Do tell...

This is where the line is drawn re: uncensored communication vs the rules curiously under "blasphemy:" mocking, belittling or denigrating Christians or Christianity.

Prayer doesn't work when it comes to affecting objective reality -- only subjective perceptions of it.

If this truth is blasphemy, then report me. Otherwise, chill.

You may say you have never experienced ________, (fill in the blank, in this case answered prayer)

Nor has anyone else -- objectively. They may believe they have, but where's the causation?

you may even question the logic behind it and express disagreement. What you may not do is, exactly what you did here. This isn't just CF rules being arbitrary, but it is basic courtesy as well as common sense.

As I said, if you think I crossed a line -- report me.
 
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razeontherock

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So, you're able to provide an example of objective reality being altered by prayer?

Do tell...

Anything I would say you would mock, ask for links, etc. Nothing I haven't seen 1000 times before.

Prayer doesn't work when it comes to affecting objective reality -- only subjective perceptions of it.
Nor has anyone else -- objectively. They may believe they have, but where's the causation?

Again, since you have no experience of your own, all you have is the testimony of others, which you callously reject, and do so out of hand. This is how we know the supposed "study" on the effectiveness of prayer is bunk. (Or rather, one more reason we know)

Other than that, what you describe there is a personal problem.
 
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Nathan Poe

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Anything I would say you would mock, ask for links, etc. Nothing I haven't seen 1000 times before.

So, given a chance to prove me wrong, you provide... excuses.

Again, since you have no experience of your own, all you have is the testimony of others, which you callously reject, and do so out of hand.

Testimony? Don't you mean excuses?

This is how we know the supposed "study" on the effectiveness of prayer is bunk. (Or rather, one more reason we know)


hey, the people studied all thought they were "True Christians" acting in accordance with the will of the Father -- all we have is you telling us they weren't, which is why their prayers didn't work.

You might be right; there's no way to tell -- but it still sounds like making excuses.

Other than that, what you describe there is a personal problem.

Indeed -- it is a personal problem that when I ask for causation, all I get are excuses.
 
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Gracchus

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The only excuse you have is that you have already chosen not to believe that Jesus is the Christ. We will see how that excuse works out for you ...
Once more the Christian fails to see that reasonable people don't "choose to believe", they are convinced by evidence. And once more, the Christian's "argument" is reduced to a phantasmal threat.

:doh:
 
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razeontherock

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Once more the Christian fails to see that reasonable people don't "choose to believe", they are convinced by evidence. And once more, the Christian's "argument" is reduced to a phantasmal threat.

:doh:

And once more the self-proclaimed (pseudo) intellectual proves he can't read, via his pontifications ...

Back to the drawing board, try again next year?
 
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sandwiches

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I'm not sure how we got off onto this tangent so thoroughly, but hey, it seems interesting. Also, I skipped over a couple of your posts that while they were good, I think your content here really gets to the point very well.

In answer to your question, no.

Breaking that down:



Please notice the assumptions that must be made in order to give a positive answer to this question. Then, compare that to the criteria I already gave, based on merely 2 Scriptures on prayer.

In short, no, that is not enough. And this is why I really expected everyone would recognize this particular study has no merit.



Those conditions do not meet even the incredibly simplified and shortened list I furnished, but 2 out of 4 ain't bad right? ^_^ Except this isn't meatloaf, horseshoes, or hand grenades. And a very basic premise here is that prayer does nothing; if anything is changed, it is the God we pray to that does the changing, which can only happen in accord with our own dominion. So usually prayer is not the only thing that needs to be done, but merely the first step.

In other words, you'd have to go back to my original statement and see that an understanding of prayer would be necessary, and the principles adhered to, before any study could be valid. And even the precursory level of understanding what's involved that I've already posted in this thread has quickly removed prayer from the realm of scientific study.



I haven't said that and right now I can't even wrap my head around these logistics, ^_^ but you do make a great point. I think pretty soon anyone that sees my posts is going to become familiar with the concept that "all Judgment has been given to the Son," if there's anyone reading this that hasn't seen me post that enough to recognize it already, that is. And your question here frames that precept very well.

So in short, yes, we are in no position to make any determinations along the lines of who might or might not be "truly righteous." Or even just plain old vanilla righteous. I'll also point out the Bible distinguishes this from Holy, and Just, and filthy. (And by inference unrighteous as well) So an absolute minimum of such 4 distinctions, which I suspect is really a continuum. (And I myself see 3 distinct separations of those who "enter Eternal Life," so I think there are WAY more than 4 distinctions along these lines) So not to confuse the issue, but the whole "heaven or hell" thing is something you have probably seen me sorta decry, and this gives you just a bit more background about that.

Jesus says we are to let the tares grow up with the wheat, because we can't tell them apart.



Now you're asking about "in the sight of men," which is 100% irrelevant! Esp wrt a (supposed) "research study" on prayer. In God's sight, He can see those whom He will listen to, embrace as His own, defend as the apple of His eye, and search to and fro throughout the Earth to show Himself strong on their behalf!
Your reply was basically telling me that I had every point wrong and then agreeing with me that prayer does nothing, as far as we are able to tell with our human senses. Whether you think it only matters that God know the truly righteous and the true effect of prayer is irrelevant. It doesn't change the fact -- one that you agree with -- that we do not have the capacity to observe or detect any effects on reality from prayer.

IOW, you've (collectively) come along too late to pretend God doesn't hear and answer prayer, and save, and deliver, and heal. We're discussing things I know via first-hand experience, while your side of the aisle is merely speculating. (Incidentally, this is the thrust of the story of Cain and Abel; the relationship with God made a REAL difference, it was not merely religious talk.)
I'm sorry but your guess completely fails. Most of us used to be Christians. Most of us have experienced the true power (or lack thereof) of faith and prayer firsthand. Now, it's funny that you're trying to sell us on the idea that prayer does work via the usual anecdotes of the cornered faithful, as you had just kept trying to convince us that the effectiveness of prayer cannot be truly be measured. Now it can be? Either the effects can be measured or they can't. Period. Make up your mind.
 
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sandwiches

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:confused: Let's take this tangent. You're good at picking up loose ends, so I trust we won't lose other matters in this thread. I happened to begin learning to read before that age, by reading the Bible. I happened to pretty instantly gain Orthodox understanding of some passages, and it was only this summer that I found out that understanding is what was taught by the early Church, which is what defines it as "Orthodox."

This is no way means that 5 years olds can understand much of the Bible, and even less the unheard of notion you assert here. I also had a reading level as high as the test could score (HS graduate) the first time I was ever tested for such a thing, in 2nd grade. That was 1972, before SAT scores and other academic standards went into decline. Even so, my understanding of the Bible at age 5 was minute compared to what I gleaned from reading it at age 20, so I think your little smart-aleck quip here is really out of place.

Hey no need to get all hot under the collar. You don't have to convince me of anything. It's AV that made the claim that the Bible is so easy to understand it that a 5-year-old can use to pwn evil scientists.
 
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sandwiches

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Chomping through your word salad as best I could, it appears you've made the concept of prayer out to be of no significance or real discernable difference between normal occurrence of events. Kudos. :thumbsup:

Precisely. He basically started every retort with "No. You're wrong." and then ended each with "But yea, you're right; the effects of prayer can't be measured."
 
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sandwiches

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The only reason i commented on a claim re: a studying researching the effectiveness of prayer, was to point out this is NOT science, and the results can't be meaningful.

More to the point, you're claiming that prayer cannot even be measured scientifically by the nonscientific requirements you established. Which is in itself a concession that the effects of prayer cannot be empirically observed, that is that we cannot detect any effects from prayer.
 
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AV1611VET

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Once more the Christian fails to see that reasonable people don't "choose to believe", they are convinced by evidence.
Which just so happens -- (by coincidence of course) -- to go in spite of the Bible, not with respect to It.

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
 
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