Contradiction? Revelation 20:10 vs. Ezekiel 28:11-19

[trident343]

Which is the fate of the devil? To burn forever? Or to burn until destroyed?

Revelation 20:10 (KJV)
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are] ,and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Ezekiel 28:11-19 (KJV)

11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

 

[trident343]

As it seems, I'm trying to rescue Satan from eternal hellfire. LOL. Like ive mentioned some annihilationists believe Satan and the angels, but not humans, will be tormented throughout eternity. Frankly, Its not a moral problem for me. The problem is that Ezekiel 28 appears to contradict it. For the Eternal Torment camp, they cannot let a literal interpretation of Ezekiel 28:18-19 apply to the devil as it would contradict their theology. So I am taking an honest look at the arguments they give in their exegesis of the passage. It seems there are 3 ways to make the passage line up with eternal torment.
1) Deny that it is the devil that is being referenced in Ezekiel 28(you won't belief what length some people go to show this, even saying that the snake in the garden of Eden is not the devil!)
2) Affirm that it is Satan being referenced but deny that it is annihilation that is being proclaimed ie. Fire will devour you, bring you to ashes, you will be no more.
3) Present some sort of King/Devil dichotomy in the passage. There is a certain level of merit to this argument and is the only argument worth addressing. Like i said before, whatever the passage means, it does not threaten the theory of conditional immortality of humans, so I am free to support whatever view Without compromising my beliefs.
The judgment of Ezekiel toward Tyre is proclaimed through chapter 26-28:19. Chapter 26-27 about the inhabitants and city itself, chapter 28:1-10 to the prince of Tyre, chapter 28:11-19 to the king of Tyre.
What I do notice is the striking parallel between this judgment and the judgment of the harlot of Babylon, the antichrist, and the Devil. I fully believe these judgements were shown to be a foreshadow of those events. There is way too much in common for It to be a coincidence.
Here are some of my thoughts about the judgment. The prince is shown to be a literal man in Ezekiel, but what is his relation to the King? Was there a literal King in Tyre who ruled along with the prince? I am not aquatinted with the real life historical figures of Tyre, but my first thoughts were that the prince was the De Facto King and ruler of Tyre, and the King was an allegorical symbol of Satan. So while the prophesy was being proclaimed against the city and the prince, the King was indirectly referenced. Let me explain this with an analogy. Say a prophet from God were to appear today and proclaim a prophecy against Prince Philip of England (Queen Elizabeths husband) if the prophet After speaking the prophecy to Prince Phillip, said "I pronounce a prophecy against your father, the king" it would be understood that it was not literally against his father, Prince Andrew, who is not only dead, but was never King of England or King of any country. Further it would be understood because the King outranks the prince, it would be understood that the princes power is derived from and subject to the King as his ruling authorty. So I consider this one possibility. Another possibility is that there is a literal king who was possessed by the devil directly, so the prophecy against him is indeed direct. The problem for the Eternal Torment camp is that there is really no apparent division between the prophecy condemning him as the devil and the judgment of being brought to ashes on the earth and being no more being directed solely at the Human King and then only applying to the human kings earthly life. There is no division demanded by the grammar and the whole prophecy from he beginning was directed at Satan. Also considering that the judgements are foreshadows of revelation and the antichrist, even if the judgment did happen to a literal human king of Tyre, it would act as a double-fulfillment/reference to what would finally happen to Satan anyway, just as the Antichrist like the Prince of Tyre will be judged for sitting as a ruler who proclaims himself as God.
My last point is about verse 19
"All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more"
I am not certain if any Human ruler in all of scripture is met with the level astonishment at their demise like in this passage. Nor am I certain of an emphasis of "being no more" placed on the death of an human ruler. For a being like an angel with natural immortality that has lived for thousands of years, to be brought to a state of "being no more"(annihilation) would be quite a historic event worthy of being emphasized by the prophet.
So in conclusion, my research thus far on this passage does not lead me to believe that the chapter in Ezekiel can be exegeted to a plausible interpretation that would contradict the annihilation of wicked humankind, nor Satan himself and the angels.

 

[he-man]

Which is the fate of the devil? To burn forever? Or to burn until destroyed?

Revelation 20:10 (KJV)
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are] ,and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Ezekiel 28:11-19 (KJV)

11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus,

God does not torture or torment, He is JUST and repays accordingly with destruction of those who reject Him.

Revelation 20:10 (KJV)
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are] ,and shall be racked day and night for ever and ever.

G928 βασανίζω

OE wræc 'vengeance, destruction', related to wreak; cf. wrack4.

C15: from Provençal arracar, from raca 'stems and husks of grapes, dregs'. © Oxford University Press, 2004

Psa 75:8 For in the hand of the LORD there is a cup, and the wine is red; it is full of mixture; and he poureth out of the same: but the dregs thereof, all the wicked of the earth shall wring out, and drink

Job 21:20 His eyes shall see his destruction, and he shall drink of the wrath of the Almighty.

And for Ezek 28 it is plain to see if you open your eyes, that it was a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus

11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus

 

[WillieH]

Which is the fate of the devil? To burn forever? Or to burn until destroyed?

Revelation 20:10 (KJV)
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are] ,and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Ezekiel 28:11-19 (KJV)

11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

This comparison has no VALIDITY, as -- Ez 28:11-19 -- does not mention "the devil" at all... It speaks of and to, ...the "King of Tyrus"... ...and it is totally an assumption that this "king" is a reference to "the devil"...


...willieH

 

[WillieH]

And for Ezek 28 it is plain to see if you open your eyes, that it was a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus

11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus

...willieH

 

[trident343]

Sigh....

"Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering...
Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."

How would a King from around 400BC have been in Eden that only existed over 2000 years before?

 

[he-man]

Sigh....

"Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering...
Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."

How would a King from around 400BC have been in Eden that only existed over 2000 years before?

not that the king of Tyre was literally there, or ever dwelt in it; but his situation in Tyre was as safe, and as pleasant and delightful, as Adam's was in the garden of Eden, at least in his own imagination. So the Targum,
"thou delightest thyself with plenty of all good things and delectable ones, as if thou dwellest in the garden of God;''
[GILL]

 

[trident343]

not that the king of Tyre was literally there, or ever dwelt in it; but his situation in Tyre was as safe, and as pleasant and delightful, as Adam's was in the garden of Eden, at least in his own imagination. So the Targum,
"thou delightest thyself with plenty of all good things and delectable ones, as if thou dwellest in the garden of God;''
[GILL]

Just wanted to clarify from your previous posts. Do you believe in the final annihilation of the wicked? Or eternal conscience torment?

 

[he-man]

Just wanted to clarify from your previous posts. Do you believe in the final annihilation of the wicked? Or eternal conscience torment?

final annihilation of the wicked but God is the judge.

Ecc 3:17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.

21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

 

[trident343]

final annihilation of the wicked but God is the judge.

Ecc 3:17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.

21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Thanks for clearing that up. In spite of your opinion about Ezekiel 28, do you think the devil and the demons will be annihilated? Some annihilationists think humans will be annihilated but not the wicked angels who have inherent immortality.

 

[he-man]

Thanks for clearing that up. In spite of your opinion about Ezekiel 28, do you think the devil and the demons will be annihilated? Some annihilationists think humans will be annihilated but not the wicked angels who have inherent immortality.

There are NO demons or devils.

The verse you are quoting says they are bound and implies bound in the GRAVE in chains of darkness.

They were messengers and NOT angelic beings. Angels cannot sin, they are immortal.

2Pe 2:4 Jude 1:6 For if God spared not the messengers that sinned, but cast them down to hell [the grave], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

I therefore conclude that this is His judgement upon them:

Job 21:30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.

32 Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.

Eze 7:9 And mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: I will recompense thee according to thy ways and thine abominations that are in the midst of thee; and ye shall know that I am the LORD that smiteth.

 

[WillieH]

Sigh....

"Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering...
Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."

How would a King from around 400BC have been in Eden that only existed over 2000 years before?

Sigh... ...to begin with, no matter HOW you percieve this text... "satan" is NOT MENTIONED IN IT.

So only via speculation, can the subject spoken unto in the text, be identified as "satan", when it is totally evident, that the word "satan" was available to the author, but NOT INSPIRED by GOD to be used in this text... for good reason... that reason being that it is not speaking of "satan"...

Furthermore...Multitude of MERCHANDISE (MUCH material goods gained or sold via TRADE) is mentioned in -- Ez 28:16 -- which most observers of this text IGNORE, ...but the TRUTH is that no spirit being has material holdings... do they?

This is a perfect example of a LITERAL view of a SPIRITUAL writing...

You are a "christian" I would assume, trident?

Spiritual language changes the perceptions of TEXT that would be read and thereby viewed in the NATURAL... for it contains messaging UNAVAILABLE to the NATURAL man -- 1 Cor 2:14

Does the ETERNAL CHRIST who IS in Heaven, still, ...dwell in your heart?

Even though YOU are ON EARTH, are you STILL ...IN Him? ...who is IN HEAVEN? Where are you? On earth or In Heaven?

Geography and time are meaningless to the ETERNAL which KNOWS NO BOUNDS.

ALL men "dwelt" in the Garden of Eden... for ALL men (like it or not) are IN Adam... and DIE because of BEING IN HIM -- 1 Cor 15:22

ALL men (including this King)... have taken part in the INIQUITY... and ALL men are found IN Adam...

You might do a bit of study on CHERUBIM... they are IMAGINARY FIGURES -- #H3742 - KRUWB -- It might assist your vision of this text a bit...

The language (WORD) of GOD in which this text is located, ...is without ANY limitation, and is NOT subject to the limitations of time or, the limitations of the earth...

Here is a good study forya:

Secrets of The Cherubim


Peace...


...willieH

 

[timbo3]

At Matthew 25:41, Jesus said in an illustration, that "to those on his left, ‘Be on your way from me, you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels."(Matt 25:41) Does this mean that Satan is to be tormented ? It is of interest that the churches teach that God made "hell", but that Satan rules over it and then for Satan himself to be thrown into the very "hell" that he himself rules over. Is any of this true ? No ! Not a thing.

God did not create a "fiery hell" and then "hand the keys" over to Satan. The Bible "hell" is not a place of eternal torment but rather mankind's common grave. The Hebrew word that is at times rendered as "hell" is sheol and the Greek word is hades. The Greek word that is often times rendered as "hellfire" or "hell" is Gehenna, such as at Matthew 5:22, 29. Jesus used fire to show the those going there are destroyed, not tormented.

Hence, Satan and his demon angels are to be destroyed, for Revelation 20:10 says that, following the final test for those alive on the earth after Jesus millennial reign, that "the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet [already were]; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Just as the "wild beast and false prophet" symbolize human governments that are to be completely wiped off the face of the earth (see Dan 2:44), so likewise does the word "torment" symbolize, not literal torment, but that Satan and his demons are to be destroyed, never to exist again and cause the "woes" on the earth that have existed throughout human history (Rev 12:12), permanently "jailed" in death.(the "wild beast" pictures all of Satan's entire political system and the "false prophet" represents Britain/America dual world power; see Matt 18:34 concerning the Greek word basanistes and is rendered as "tormentors" in the King James Bible) Can something symbolic be "tormented" ? No. Hence, Satan the Devil is not "tormented" but is put to death, forever held there as would a person in jail.

At Revelation 20:12, 13, it says that during Jesus millennial reign, that "the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."(King James Bible) Thus, those in the Bible "hell" are released from their captive condition of mankind's common grave by means of a resurrection from the dead.(John 5:28, 29)

To further show that "hell" is to be destroyed, Revelation 20:14 says: "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." How can "hell" be a fiery place of eternal torment and yet be thrown into a "lake of fire" ? Can fire destroy fire ? No. However, mankind's common grave, the Bible "hell" can be destroyed, with it being thrown symbolically into "the lake of fire", which the Bible also calls the "second death." What is the "second death" ?

The condemnation of death through our forefather Adam, or Adamic death, which every sinful human has received, can rightly be called the ' first death'. Yet, the death that God causes due to a person seeking to be independent of God, rejecting his rulership, is called the "second death", from which there is no resurrection. Once there, a person ceases to exist forever, never to be resurrected.

Hence, once Satan and his demons (or anyone) are cast into the "lake of fire", these cease to exist, having been destroyed forever, and are never able to manipulate mankind again, as Satan did Eve in the Garden of Eden.(Gen 3:1-6) Genuine peace can now follow, for Psalms 37:11 says that "the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace."(King James Bible, Matt 5:5)

At Ezekiel 28, God uses characteristics of Satan to parallel with the king of Tyre.(Eze 28:12) Tyre was known for being a greedy commercial hub during the 7th century B.C.E. Tyre grew to be very great at the expense of other peoples, including Israel. She was a manufacturer of metal objects, glassware, and purple dyes and was a trading center for the overland caravans as well as a great import-export depot. Along with this industrial and commercial growth came riches, conceit, and pride.

Her merchants and tradesmen boasted of being princes and honorable ones of the earth. (Isa 23:8) Tyre in time also developed an attitude of opposition to Jehovah God (just as Satan has) and conspired with neighboring nations against God’s people. (Ps 83:2-8) So it was her bold defiance of Jehovah God (just as Satan is) that eventually brought upon the city adverse judgment, downfall, and destruction.

 

[WillieH]

willieH: Hi timbo...

I find some agreement with some of your post and MUCH disagreement with some of it...

Much of your offering is commonly accepted "theology"... which is in need of correction...

No offense is intended toward you whatsoever... just a hope that you might consider the commentary made.

At Matthew 25:41, Jesus said in an illustration, that "to those on his left, ‘Be on your way from me, you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels."(Matt 25:41) Does this mean that Satan is to be tormented ? It is of interest that the churches teach that God made "hell", but that Satan rules over it and then for Satan himself to be thrown into the very "hell" that he himself rules over. Is any of this true ? No ! Not a thing.

There is no Scripture which notes that "satan" (it is arguable as to what this word identifies ) is thrown into "hell" (it is also arguable as to what this word identifies )...

God did not create a "fiery hell" and then "hand the keys" over to Satan. The Bible "hell" is not a place of eternal torment but rather mankind's common grave. The Hebrew word that is at times rendered as "hell" is sheol and the Greek word is hades.

...God did not create a "fiery hell" at all... as a matter of fact, it is MAN which has erected this fallacy, and RELIGIOUS MEN which seek to place other men in it -- James 3:6-9 -- which... "Ought not so to be"

The Greek word that is often times rendered as "hellfire" or "hell" is Gehenna, such as at Matthew 5:22, 29. Jesus used fire to show the those going there are destroyed, not tormented.

Actually, ALL are tried in FIRE (pur) -- Mark 9:49 -- for THIS LIFE is the FIERY trial (lake of FIRE = pur = fire) in which we are "tried" -- Rev 3:18 -- JESUS' "gold" was TRIED in FIRE (pur), ...which "trials" took place in THIS REALM and in THIS LIFE... Peter noted to his listeners, that they would be tried by "fire" (pur) -- 1 Pet 1:8 -- 1 Pet 4:12

Hence, Satan and his demon angels are to be destroyed, for Revelation 20:10 says that, following the final test for those alive on the earth after Jesus millennial reign, that "the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet [already were]; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

FIRST --- The word "satan" (much like the word "hell") is a misunderstood term... "satan" is a Hebrew term which means "adversary/adversity"... that which is contrary to the COMMAND of God is ADVERSE to it... and the messengers of ADVERSITY are indeed the adversaries of the GOSPEL...

MANY are said to be in this grouping -- Matt 7:22-23 -- which COME in the NAME of CHRIST, and yet are termed BY HIM as those who "work iniquity"! How can this be? Easily explained... because they are claiming the works of "righteousness" for themselves, while bearing a message of HORROR and DESTRUCTION to the WORLD which God so LOVES...

SECOND --- Even though CHRIST rejects their offerings to Him (much as the offering of CAIN was rejected in the Garden)... the FIRE of JUDGMENT (which is NOW -- John 12:31) shall destroy that which is unacceptable in them, and though their works are LOST, yet are they STILL being SAVED BY that FIRE -- 1 Cor 3:11-15 -- The "JUDGMENT" of YHVH God, is NOT a bad thing... for it is a TEACHER of righteousness -- Isaiah 26:9

THIRD --- there is no such thing as a "millenial reign". All this is, ...is an "extra Biblical" term which brings a FEAR FILLED and TERRIBLE message which is taught in the stead of the GOSPEL of PEACE (which is GOOD NEWS).

The apostate entity severally known as those who are come in the name of CHRIST, bringing a message of FEAR to the world, instead of the GOOD NEWS ...which is that which they were instructed to bring -- Mark 16:15 -- that CHRIST has RECONCILED ALL THINGS unto YHVH via the BLOOD of His CROSS at Calvary -- Col 1:20 -- 2 Cor 5:19

No message which such a NEGATIVE interpretation of the SYMBOLISM in the book of the REVEALING of JESUS CHRIST, can be considered GOOD NEWS... for the GOSPEL of PEACE -- Rom 10:15 -- Eph 6:15 -- cannot be affiliated in any way with such an HYPOCRISY!

The Scripture plainly notes that --- LOVE casts OUT FEAR, it certainly does NOT HYPOCRITICALLY, also promote it to be EMBRACED -- 1 John 4:18

GOD, nor His WORD are subject to the parameters of finite TIME... nor to "chronology"... and this is astray pathways in which these false interpretations of the REVEALING of JESUS CHRIST, have wandered. Attempting to take "this" as literal (millenium) and "that" as symbolic (beasts filled with eyes, "wooden stars" which fall into the sea, etc.)

A day is as a thouand years with God... and in the DAY of YHVH, is the DAY in which ALL generations appear -- Gen 2:4 -- is that which is symbolized in -- Rev 20:2-6

Those who actually BRING the GOSPEL to the WORLD that God so (eternally and UNCHANGINGLY) LOVES, are "reigning" in the DAY of GOD (in which ALL generations appear)... and this "DAY" began at the beginning, and is NOT a literal number. Said followers are having part in FAITH, which is the 1st resurrection, which is LIGHT within the DARKNESS... and which is/was/and will be, ...NOW!

"satan" IS not and never was a being. And is that which is unto those who either do not at all believe in CHRIST, or that DO believe, but bring the message of FEAR, HORROR and VENGENCE (which is past -- Matt 5:38) in the stead of the GOSPEL of PEACE which is the GOOD NEWS of GOD's GRACE, LOVE, and FORGIVENESS -- Matt 5:44-48

Just as the "wild beast and false prophet" symbolize human governments

Actually the "FALSE PROPHET" is the extremely DIVIDED "church" which collectively brings a FALSE MESSAGE to the world... It is certainly NOT an earthly "government".

It is a VERY LARGE entity (termed as "MANY" -- which is MOST of 2.5 Billion to date) which comes in the NAME of CHRIST, but is bringing a disguised message of FEAR instead of the purity of DIVINE LOVE, which results in MANY being DECIEVED -- Matt 24:5

that are to be completely wiped off the face of the earth (see Dan 2:44), so likewise does the word "torment" symbolize, not literal torment, but that Satan and his demons are to be destroyed

There are no such things as "demons"... this is an embellishment which is incorporated within the message of fear.

It is the WORK of ADVERSITY in human beings -- Rom 1:18 -- which is being DESTROYED by God, not human beings which GOD so LOVES... Certainly NO HOLY ANGEL (which has ever been HOLY) shall EVER be destroyed!

This is getting quite lengthy, ...so I will stop here for the moment, and address the balance of your post later...


Peace...


...willieH

 

[WillieH]

willieH: Hi timbo...

continuing...

never to exist again and cause the "woes" on the earth that have existed throughout human history (Rev 12:12), permanently "jailed" in death.(the "wild beast" pictures all of Satan's entire political system and the "false prophet" represents Britain/America dual world power; see Matt 18:34 concerning the Greek word basanistes and is rendered as "tormentors" in the King James Bible) Can something symbolic be "tormented" ? No. Hence, Satan the Devil is not "tormented" but is put to death, forever held there as would a person in jail.

I disagree... and I think you may have visited one or two othrodoxy classes too many!

The FALSE PROPHET is that entity which bears a FALSE message to the WORLD, in the name of CHRIST -- Matt 7:22-23 -- Matt 24:5 -- decieving MANY...

The governments of the USA and England are not about any religious agenda... but the "church" which bears the name of CHRIST, ...definitely is! Now reaching a WORLDWIDE number of 2.5 BILLION!!! Think about it.

A "prophet" is one SPEAKING/bringing a message. This noting that the message of the "MANY" is DECIEVINGLY, FALSE -- Matt 7:22-23 -- Matt 24:5

The ADVERSARY to the COMMAND of God is that which is put away ("satan" in man). No being (or "beings") are destroyed... Only the manifest LIVING of UNRIGHTEOUS principles are destroyed, by the RIGHTEOUSNESS and MERCIFUL GRACE of YHVH God... which delivers us from those principles...

At Revelation 20:12, 13, it says that during Jesus millennial reign, that "the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."(King James Bible)

The "books" are the LIVES of all men, which, one by one... live those lives before the sight of YHVH God, and the MOMENTS of those lives, are JUDGED in the moment of those lives... NOW --- Just as JESUS said -- John 12:31 -- NOT at the end, but NOW, ...DURING the living of LIFE, is the "judgment" of this WORLD, taking place...

And the WRATH of God ...IS... coming against the unrighteousness and ungodliness of men -- Rom 1:18 -- Psalm 90:9 -- AS it happens...

This life, which is filled with SORROWS such as AIDS, CANCER, MS, WAR, MURDER, Loss of LOVE, Depression (the NEGATIVITY list is literally endless), ...is not some sort of, ..."warm-up" for WORSE to come! God FORBID!

Gal 6:8 -- for he that SOWETH to his flesh, shall OF THE FLESH REAP CORRUPTION... but he that SOWETH to the SPIRIT shall OF THE SPIRIT REAP LIFE "AIONIOS" [everlasting = aionios = time]

AIONIOS and AION are both time oriented terminology... both are used to define TIME... so neither can define the INFINITE.

NOTE -- No man can truly comprehend the words FOREVER, ETERNAL, or EVERLASTING... so no translation of INFINITE terminology is VALID unless the terminology is comprehended by the FINITE translator. No man is capable of the comprehension of such words as "ETERNAL", which by definitin, includes WITHOUT BEGINNING. So, the use of such translation is INVALID due to both the translator and reader inability to comprehend said terminology. Both the terms AION and AIONIOS are utilized to determine TIME:

AION -- Rom 12:2 -- actual meaning is AGE - translated in this verse "world" which had a beginning.

AIONIOS (derivitive of AION) -- Jude 7 -- "eternal" (aionios) fire... the fire which Sodom/Gommorah experienced both started and ended... "eternal" has neither beginning or end.

Whatsoever a man sows (in this life), that shall he REAP (in this life)... of the FLESH -- CORRUPTION (AIDS, CANCER, SORROWS, and DEATH galore), those who SOW of the SPIRIT (in this life) -- shall reap LIFE (in this life)...

Thus, those in the Bible "hell" are released from their captive condition of mankind's common grave by means of a resurrection from the dead.(John 5:28, 29)

The GRAVE is not "hell"... the GRAVE is, ...the GRAVE.

SHEOL and HADES are interchangeable terms, and it is a fact that the SEPTUAGINT (Greek translation of the entire Bible), notes HADES in ALL places where SHEOL appears in Hebrew.

Hell is an inaccurate English translation, and is a disingenuously translated word from the Greek word HADES - which means GRAVE...

Hades is hypocritically translated GRAVE in the KJV -- 1 Cor 15:55 -- which was convenient to the religious holdings of the translators who, had they used the term "HELL" in this verse, would've stated that HELL gets NO VICTORY... and thereby debunked their own religious positioning concerning "hell"... so all of a sudden in ONE PLACE in the NT... HADES means GRAVE? Please! This is BLATANT religion at its hypocritcal worst.

To further show that "hell" is to be destroyed, Revelation 20:14 says: "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." How can "hell" be a fiery place of eternal torment and yet be thrown into a "lake of fire" ? Can fire destroy fire ? No.

Excellent! I partially agree with this statement! FIRE cannot destroy FIRE... but ALL "fire" is not the same...

Does a coach which FIRES up his team, TORCHING the poor guys before the game starts?

Or is the FIRE of musical passion, buring up musician playing his soul out?

Or is the FIRE of two who have fallen in LOVE a 911 tragedy?

Or is a salesman who's sales record is ON FIRE, needing an extinguisher?

Or were CHRIST's FIERY trials, a matter for ALOE VERA?

HADES (translated "hell") is the GRAVE, not FIRE... and the GRAVE and DEATH (which were BOTH cast into this life) are BOTH found "destroyed", by the CROSS of CHRIST which redeems ALL to LIFE -- 1 Cor 15:28 -- Col 1:20 -- 2 Cor 5:19

However, mankind's common grave, the Bible "hell" can be destroyed, with it being thrown symbolically into "the lake of fire", which the Bible also calls the "second death." What is the "second death" ?

The condemnation of death through our forefather Adam, or Adamic death, which every sinful human has received, can rightly be called the ' first death'. Yet, the death that God causes due to a person seeking to be independent of God, rejecting his rulership, is called the "second death", from which there is no resurrection. Once there, a person ceases to exist forever, never to be resurrected.

Do not agree with your conclusion here, bro...

FIRST -- ADAM was told that he would DIE ...IN THE DAY HE ATE -- Gen 2:17 -- so he DIED in that DAY ("the SOUL that sinneth shall DIE" -- Ez 18:20)... ADAM died his FIRST DEATH (of the "soul") on the DAY he ate (sinned), ...which is the APPOINTED death to ALL MEN -- Heb 9:27 -- then the JUDGMENT (of this world) occurs -- which JESUS said is NOW -- John 12:31

SECOND --- However, that said... ADAM continued to LIVE (and be JUDGED) then, after 930 years He DIED the SECOND DEATH (of the FLESH) -- Gen 5:5

Hence, once Satan and his demons (or anyone) are cast into the "lake of fire", these cease to exist, having been destroyed forever, and are never able to manipulate mankind again, as Satan did Eve in the Garden of Eden.(Gen 3:1-6) Genuine peace can now follow, for Psalms 37:11 says that "the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace."(King James Bible, Matt 5:5)

FIRST -- the "LAKE of FIRE" and brimstone (which is a purifying agent)... is THIS LIFE... both the GRAVE (hades) and DEATH are cast into this LIFE, and experienced by ALL in this realm. ALL DEATH takes place HERE.

SECOND --- The "meek" are the REPENTENT... and YHVH has determined via HIS Divine INTENT that NONE PERISH, and as well ALL come to REPENTENCE shall in the final result -- 2 Pet 3:9 -- The word translated "WILLING" in -- 2 Pet 3:9 -- is -- BOULEMA - #G1014 -- which means INTENTION.

At Ezekiel 28, God uses characteristics of Satan to parallel with the king of Tyre.(Eze 28:12) Tyre was known for being a greedy commercial hub during the 7th century B.C.E. Tyre grew to be very great at the expense of other peoples, including Israel. She was a manufacturer of metal objects, glassware, and purple dyes and was a trading center for the overland caravans as well as a great import-export depot. Along with this industrial and commercial growth came riches, conceit, and pride.

Her merchants and tradesmen boasted of being princes and honorable ones of the earth. (Isa 23:8) Tyre in time also developed an attitude of opposition to Jehovah God (just as Satan has) and conspired with neighboring nations against God’s people. (Ps 83:2-8) So it was her bold defiance of Jehovah God (just as Satan is) that eventually brought upon the city adverse judgment, downfall, and destruction.

I almost agree with this! You do make some very good points!

"satan" is ADVERSITY itself... but obviously does NOT appear in this passage (Ez 28)... even though many theologians and preachers (falsely) insist it speaks of "satan"...

What I don't paricularly agree with is that "satan" opposes God from a sentient position. ADVERSITY automatically is "satan" to the command of YHVH God... found in the NATURAL state of the (deceitful) human heart -- Jer 17:9

The only person ever addressed as "satan" was the Apostle Peter. And we both know that Peter is not a "red guy with a pitchfork"!

What Peter said... was ADVERSE to the completion of the mission of CHRIST... and he was addressed accordingly. JESUS was not calling Peter, the "devil"... He was pointing out that Peter's words were FLESHLY and Unspiritual... and NOT aligned with the WILL of YHVH, which noted CHRIST to give Himself to redeem mankind.

Peace...

...willieH

 

[trident343]

Well Willeh, Im going to have to disagree with you on this, but let me go over the points you posted.

Sigh... ...to begin with, no matter HOW you percieve this text... "satan" is NOT MENTIONED IN IT.

Sure I'll concede that 100 percent. However to imply that it cannot be talking about Satan because his name is not mentioned would be committing the Logical fallacy of argument from silence. After all, Didn't Jesus say whe he was at the temple in Jerusalem "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." ???
Yet the writer John tells us that Jesus was speaking about his own body. Jesus never said it was his own body, so I guess John is wrong Eh?

 

[trident343]

So only via speculation, can the subject spoken unto in the text, be identified as "satan", when it is totally evident, that the word "satan" was available to the author, but NOT INSPIRED by GOD to be used in this text... for good reason... that reason being that it is not speaking of "satan"...

Furthermore...Multitude of MERCHANDISE (MUCH material goods gained or sold via TRADE) is mentioned in -- Ez 28:16 -- which most observers of this text IGNORE, ...but the TRUTH is that no spirit being has material holdings... do they?

This is a perfect example of a LITERAL view of a SPIRITUAL writing...

Funny how what one person would call "exegesis", another person calls "Speculation". Through sensible examination of the inference we can establish that the prophecy is about Satan. "Perfect in Beauty" ? "In the Garden of Eden" ? "You were the anointed cherub"? "You were on the Holy mountain of God"?

How would we not see that this is not imagery of Satan??? Unless you dont WANT to see it as referring to Satan.

"Furthermore...Multitude of MERCHANDISE (MUCH material goods gained or sold via TRADE) is mentioned in -- Ez 28:16 -- which most observers of this text IGNORE, ...but the TRUTH is that no spirit being has material holdings... do they?"

Okay, now were hitting speedbumps a little. This is where somebody like me who leans toward the verse as speaking about Satan would have to do some explaining. My question to you would be how come you can Spiritualize the reading of the surrounding text but not this one???

Consider this. Is Satan literally ruling over the earth? I mean, did we elect him into office? or do we pay taxes to him? Will you find him listed on Wikipedia or the Cia World Factbook as the Head of State of any Country or Union??? Clearly the answer is no, yet Christ himself indentifies him as such.

[FONT=&quot]John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out
.
John 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

John 16:11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged
[/FONT]
Perhaps Satan influencs people to trade greedily and that is why he is directly acussed of being guily. As far as speculation goes, I think my understanding is far less capricious and unwarranted"[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

 

[trident343]

terial holdings... do they?

This is a perfect example of a LITERAL view of a SPIRITUAL writing...

You are a "christian" I would assume, trident?

Spiritual language changes the perceptions of TEXT that would be read and thereby viewed in the NATURAL... for it contains messaging UNAVAILABLE to the NATURAL man -- 1 Cor 2:14

Your asking me to check if I am a Christian because I disagree with an interpretation of a chapter in the Bible??? Get real my friend. After all, No good Scotsman would ever interpret the bible literally right??? LOL

[FONT=&quot]"Does the ETERNAL CHRIST who IS in Heaven, still, ...dwell in your heart?"

[/FONT]He does in mine, how about you? Less you be reprobates? LOL. Sorry, but can we please be less judgmental?

The thing about interpreting scripture is that both literal and figurative language is used. So the question is, where should we and where shouldn't we interpret it as such?

Its one thing to understand that God is a rock, or high tower, or shield as figurative. How about "Thou shalt not murder" is that figurative???

Sorry friend, You have to do better than this.

 

[he-man]

Funny how what one person would call "exegesis", another person calls "Speculation". Through sensible examination of the inference we can establish that the prophecy is about Satan. "Perfect in Beauty" ? "In the Garden of Eden" ? "You were the anointed cherub"? "You were on the Holy mountain of God"?

How would we not see that this is not imagery of Satan??? Unless you dont WANT to see it as referring to Satan.

I wonder why Paul says:
2 Cor 12:7 Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.
Certainly it was some physical malady that persisted.
Each of us has some such splinter or thorn in the flesh, perhaps several at once.
It was probably a bodily malady, in the flesh; (VWS)

This in turn was borrowed from Ancient Greek diábolos (διαβολο&#962, "slanderer", from diaballein "to slander": dia- "across, through" + ballein "to hurl".
Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, on Perseus.

Much "Satanic" lore does not originate from actual Satanists, but from Christians. Best-known would be the medieval folklore and theology surrounding demons and witches. (
Jeffrey Burton Russell, Lucifer, the Devil in the Middle Ages (Cornell University Press, 1986), p. 128)

Satan Sa'tan. The word itself, the Hebrew satan, is simply an "adversary," and is so used in 1 Sam 29:4; 2 Sam 19:22; 1 Kin 6:4; 11:14, 23, 25; Numb 22:22, 33; Psal 109:6

This original sense is still found in our Lord's application of the name to St. Peter in Matt 16:23 It is used as a proper name or title only four times in the Old Testament, vis. (with the article) in Job 1:6, 12; 2:1; Zech 2:1 and without the article in 1 Chr 21:1
(Smith's Bible Dictionary)

Reading Isa 14:4, "That you shall take up this proverb against the **king of Babylon,** and say, How has the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!", it becomes clear that this is the king of Babylon and his nation that is being spoken of here.

While this mythological information is available to scholars today via translated Babylonian cuneiform text taken from clay tablets, it was not as readily available at the time of the Latin translation of the Bible.

Thus, early Christian tradition interpreted the passage as a reference to the moment Satan was thrown from Heaven. Lucifer became another name for Satan and has remained so due to Christian dogma and popular tradition.
(Christian_teaching_about_the_Devil)

The same is true of
Eze 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

Eze 26:7 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people.

Eze 28:7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

 

[trident343]

I wonder why Paul says:
2 Cor 12:7 Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.
Certainly it was some physical malady that persisted.
Each of us has some such splinter or thorn in the flesh, perhaps several at once.
It was probably a bodily malady, in the flesh; (VWS)

This in turn was borrowed from Ancient Greek diábolos (διαβολο&#962, "slanderer", from diaballein "to slander": dia- "across, through" + ballein "to hurl".
Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, on Perseus.

Much "Satanic" lore does not originate from actual Satanists, but from Christians. Best-known would be the medieval folklore and theology surrounding demons and witches. (
Jeffrey Burton Russell, Lucifer, the Devil in the Middle Ages (Cornell University Press, 1986), p. 128)

Satan Sa'tan. The word itself, the Hebrew satan, is simply an "adversary," and is so used in 1 Sam 29:4; 2 Sam 19:22; 1 Kin 6:4; 11:14, 23, 25; Numb 22:22, 33; Psal 109:6

This original sense is still found in our Lord's application of the name to St. Peter in Matt 16:23 It is used as a proper name or title only four times in the Old Testament, vis. (with the article) in Job 1:6, 12; 2:1; Zech 2:1 and without the article in 1 Chr 21:1
(Smith's Bible Dictionary)

Reading Isa 14:4, "That you shall take up this proverb against the **king of Babylon,** and say, How has the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!", it becomes clear that this is the king of Babylon and his nation that is being spoken of here.

While this mythological information is available to scholars today via translated Babylonian cuneiform text taken from clay tablets, it was not as readily available at the time of the Latin translation of the Bible.

Thus, early Christian tradition interpreted the passage as a reference to the moment Satan was thrown from Heaven. Lucifer became another name for Satan and has remained so due to Christian dogma and popular tradition.
(Christian_teaching_about_the_Devil)

The same is true of
Eze 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

Eze 26:7 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people.

Eze 28:7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

Yes there are figures of speech and symbols used in scripture, as they are used in everyday life. You people tend to over spiritualize the bible to he point that it is unknown what we take literal and what we take allegorical. Then it becomes the OPINION of the particular interpreter who makes the call..if plain sense and reason which everybody is given cannot be used to interpret the bible, what good is it to have the written word anyway?