"I see no evidence in the Word that faith and repentance are gifts from God."

[Apologetic_Warrior]

I didn't think he was, even if he did, I would forgive him. Regardless, if he indeed refers to some posters on here (which I hope he isn't like you said), he would have need of repentance.

Terene, if I could, I would give you a big hug. I admire and respect the passion you bring to discussion. I do not think I could even keep up with all of your responses if I tried. I know how difficult it is to try to not get frustrated and upset, because everyone here loves truth and the Lord thereof. I hope and pray God will give you peace of heart and mind, and strength to love when situations may not be so loving. God bless you and keep you by grace for His glory. amen.

 

[Terene]

Terene, if I could, I would give you a big hug. I admire and respect the passion you bring to discussion. I do not think I could even keep up with all of your responses if I tried. I know how difficult it is to try to not get frustrated and upset, because everyone here loves truth and the Lord thereof. I hope and pray God will give you peace of heart and mind, and strength to love when situations may not be so loving. God bless you and keep you by grace for His glory. amen.

Thanks and amen, may God give you much peace and strength and love as well. Yes, I got upset and frustrated lots of times, and I had to go away lots of times because of this. I do hope that though my flesh had so much infirmities, I was able to deliver some worthy messages with a good heart and conscience before God. If you are willing to discuss anything, do PM me and I would love to share what understanding I may have with you. I am actually really shocked that you are giving me such heart-warming message (though perhaps you are still a hard core Calvinist and we have much to disagree about), and I am sure God will bless you for your sincerity. I can only hope one day we will all see one another in God's Kingdom and we will realise just how foolish we had been through these disagreements (and much tensions) when all we had to do was to seek God and let Him unite us in faith.

 

[Tzaousios]

Tzaousios fail to realise that there is a difference between pointing out facts and judging people with false accusations. I hope he hasn't forgotten how he accused me of scandalizing Calvinists when I am but pointing out the errors in Calvinism.

No, I do not fail to realize the distinction. It is just that you do not always do that.

I do not understand what Calvinists are supposed to think of themselves when most of them in Soteriology have put great effort into coming to the positions that they hold, only to be told that they are in error and believe doctrines of men and demons. Can you understand for a nanosecond that they might feel scandalized or judged when their beliefs are called those things?

Theology has nothing to do with the people involved. I can discuss all about a theology without ever meaning any insult to those who believe in that theology.

No matter how much you try to distance yourself from this, in reality it just happens that Calvinists do not like their sincerely-held beliefs called doctrines of men and demons. They do not like to be treated as strawmen good for nothing except burning.

But Tzaousios likes to put them together and finger point others for "scandalising" and "labelling" people when the theology was what was really discussed. He has not stopped on here, and still tries to bait me and see if I am by any chance calling Calvinists "nonsensical" and what not.

Once again, what are Calvinists supposed to think of themselves when their beliefs are called those things? If they are told that they believe something unreasonable and nonsensical, are they supposed to think that they do not have sufficient powers of reason?

Stop putting sentences with my name in it in bold in order to draw the sympathy of the moderators. They know quite well what is going on and can make the necessary distinctions.

I do not know everything Skala did, but he never once tried to finger point me in that manner. And if he has shown me such respect, he deserves as much, if not more respect from me. And I respect him by telling him the truth, as much as he is able and willing to hear.

Nor am I pointing the finger at Skala. What I want to know is why you did not excoriate him and refuse to reply to him when he pointed out the silliness of the "doctrines of demons and men" rhetoric. He recognizes it as scandalous, rhetorically-charged language just as much as I do.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Thanks and amen, may God give you much peace and strength and love as well. Yes, I got upset and frustrated lots of times, and I had to go away lots of times because of this. I do hope that though my flesh had so much infirmities, I was able to deliver some worthy messages with a good heart and conscience before God. If you are willing to discuss anything, do PM me and I would love to share what understanding I may have with you. I am actually really shocked that you are giving me such heart-warming message (though perhaps you are still a hard core Calvinist and we have much to disagree about), and I am sure God will bless you for your sincerity. I can only hope one day we will all see one another in God's Kingdom and we will realise just how foolish we had been through these disagreements (and much tensions) when all we had to do was to seek God and let Him unite us in faith.

God is greater than our differences... The way I see it, despite our differences, we are one in the Christian faith, and one day, when we're in Heaven, all these disagreements we had will fade away, everything will pale in the glory of God. We will rejoice and be glad as we bow our knee to Jesus Christ our Lord.

I am and always will be (here on earth anyway) a Christian first, Protestant second, and Reformed third. I am always open to discussion, and I am a good listener, but I will not take a step backwards to the theological presuppositions I once held, to para-quote Martin Luther "I can do no other". For all of our differences though, I know we have much we agree on, even if unspoken.

I pray the Lord will protect and guide you in your country. May you be a light in darkness, and give hope to the hopeless, in Jesus name, amen.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

I do not understand what Calvinists are supposed to think of themselves when most of them in Soteriology have put great effort into coming to the positions that they hold, only to be told that they are in error and believe doctrines of men and demons. Can you understand for a nanosecond that they might feel scandalized or judged when their beliefs are called those things?

I do not believe Calvinists nor Arminians should throw the proverbial "doctrines of men and demons" dart at each other. It's even more offensive to hear it come out of someone's mouth as I did years ago through Paltalk. I am sometimes dumbfounded by the lack of charity among Christians...it's been a real downer. If I were to lay down the "doctrines of men and demons" gauntlet, I would lay it down before a JW, Mormon, etc. Those non-Christian groups with religious beliefs that are clearly unorthodox and way out there. I would be real slow to deal such judgement to part of historical Christianity. It's liked to cutting off one's nose to spite their face...not pretty.

 

[Terene]

But saying that I am "scandalising" anyone is no doubt a direct attack and much uncalled for, especially when my intention is not clearly known. If I am indeed scandalising people, I would not be so careful with my posts and avoid personalisation. In fact, since I learnt my lesson in my very first thread, I avoided personalisation as much as I could, and that should be a very clear sign that I am not trying to scandalise anyone as I am falsely accused.

Though it may seem painful to Calvinists that there are errors in their theology, it is because there is a misplacement of faith and love in a theology rather than in what is plainly stated in the Word. I mean no offense, but that's what normally happens to people when they find that the thing that they adore is not what they think it to be. If I were in the shoes of the Calvinists, and I loved Calvinism like they did and esteemed it to be the truth of God, it is only natural that I would feel offended when people start pointing out to me that Calvinism is not true and has much errors. I can understand that, and I really don't mean to rub the wound with salt by exposing the errors that are there.

But the truth is, if we by any chance place too much faith and love in a theology or any theology, we risk having our faith torn apart, because I do believe that theologies are never 100% correct. If we can all be like the Bereans and we truly start to examine each and every doctrine under Calvinism, Arminism, and so on, we will soon realise that there will be errors in all of them. In fact, since no one has perfect knowledge in this world, it is not going to be surprising that most if not all of modern theologies will not line up with all the truth in the Word. This only proves that theologies can never be the basis of truth nor can they be the basis of faith.

Perhaps people will then start to call me anti-intellectualism, but this is what I do believe and observe, at least so from Calvinism. If the Lord did not command us to go and develop theologies, and if the apostles did not exhort us to become intellectuals and start forming impressive schools of thoughts, then we shouldn't be taking things into our hands and try to form theologies to elevate ourselves above others.

Just look at the conflicts between Arminism and Calvinism, and some other conflicts between different schools of thoughts, and see the disunity and contention they bring, some even turning bloody and murderous. How can this be the work of the Lord? And what about the Lord's prayer that we should all be one in Him? So why are theologies and schools of thoughts working contentions rather than unity if they are indeed noble and good? I would rather believe that they are satan's tools to tear people's faith apart, if not put people's faith in wrong things and lead them astray from pure faith and unity that can ONLY be found in Christ. Yes, I am being very direct about theologies and schools of thought, but I mean no offense to any hard core theologians and intellectuals. This is the hard and painful truth I see in theologies and schools of thoughts, and this truth is only amplified by the contentions and disunity I see within the Body of Christ. What shall we do? Continue in this error and let the Body of Christ be divided even further than it already is? Or wake up to the truth and start to restore the unity and pure faith the ancient saints had in Christ and God? Let the theologians and intellectuals decide. But I will continue in that pure faith in Christ.

 

[Terene]

I do not believe Calvinists nor Arminians should throw the proverbial "doctrines of men and demons" dart at each other. It's even more offensive to hear it come out of someone's mouth as I did years ago through Paltalk. I am sometimes dumbfounded by the lack of charity among Christians...it's been a real downer. If I were to lay down the "doctrines of men and demons" gauntlet, I would lay it down before a JW, Mormon, etc. Those non-Christian groups with religious beliefs that are clearly unorthodox and way out there. I would be real slow to deal such judgement to part of historical Christianity. It's liked to cutting off one's nose to spite their face...not pretty.

Yes, and I do tend to be very direct with things. But I hope you do understand that with me, either it is the truth of God, or it is the doctrines of men and demons. It is that black and white to me when it comes to biblical doctrines, and I am sure you can understand why I say that. But I really mean no offense to anyone personally, but rather, I am being very direct about the truth which we need to seek and speak, and I believe it is absolutely necessary to distinguish between them. The Word is 100% truth and errorless, and thus no doubt any other doctrine that is not 100% truth cannot be biblical. If it is not biblical and does not fall under the category of "truth of God", where else can it fall under? You must decide then.

 

[Terene]

God is greater than our differences... The way I see it, despite our differences, we are one in the Christian faith, and one day, when we're in Heaven, all these disagreements we had will fade away, everything will pale in the glory of God. We will rejoice and be glad as we bow our knee to Jesus Christ our Lord.

I am and always will be (here on earth anyway) a Christian first, Protestant second, and Reformed third. I am always open to discussion, and I am a good listener, but I will not take a step backwards to the theological presuppositions I once held, to para-quote Martin Luther "I can do no other". For all of our differences though, I know we have much we agree on, even if unspoken.

I pray the Lord will protect and guide you in your country. May you be a light in darkness, and give hope to the hopeless, in Jesus name, amen.

Amen and may God do likewise to you in your country. Thank you for that kind spirit that you have shown towards me, I really do appreciate it. Nothing is more important than love, and you have demonstrated that well. Keep on seeking the truth, I'm sure God will reward you for your effort, brother.

 

[cygnusx1]

When I mean search out for yourself, I mean you search it ALONE with God. I do not mean you rely on yourself, but that you rely on God ALONE, not me, not Calvin, not any theologists that you know, GOD only do you rely. I hope I made myself clear enough.

and what makes you think I didn't ?

The testimony of my becoming a Calvinist is written on this forum , it involved me trapped by the truth of scripture ......

and what makes you think others have not had this same experience ? there are many "Calvinists" in history , even George Whitefield and John Newton who had never read any Calvin etc .

If I am not to read other men's works why should I read your posts ? what can be learned from reading anything you type ? try being consistent.
If I must now listen to "no man" then you have just made all your posts vanish !

Again, I have condemned no one, but pointed out why Calvinism is wrong and unbiblical. I used human's reasoning, and whatever understanding I have been given of God. I believe I spoke what was easy to understand. I did not avoid any of your arguments, but I gave reasoning to whatever you said and why they may be wrong. I have yet to hear some reasoning from YOUR SIDE.

you do realise FAITH is a fruit of the Spirit ? that it comes by hearing the word of God - and you still fail to see it is imparted by God's grace.

 

[Terene]

and what makes you think I didn't ?

The testimony of my becoming a Calvinist is written on this forum , it involved me trapped by the truth of scripture ......

and what makes you think others have not had this same experience ? there are many "Calvinists" in history , even George Whitefield and John Newton who had never read any Calvin etc .

If I am not to read other men's works why should I read your posts ? what can be learned from reading anything you type ? try being consistent.
If I must now listen to "no man" then you have just made all your posts vanish !

I know not your testimony, so I cannot judge anything. Neither do I know the testimonies of Whitefield and Newton, so neither do I judge theirs. But the fact remains: if Calvinism is really true, why do I see such glaring contradictions and nonsensical conclusions from it? I have not argued only once, but many times, repeating much of my reasoning and logic with what I do understand. I see no real refutation to those points, neither in this thread, nor in the previous threads I started. Is the truth so hard to defend? Or am I the one in grave delusion? I don't know, you tell me.

I asked you to not rely on man but God for the truth, I did not forbid you from reading people's work. Where did you get that idea from? Even if I were really to say so, I have no real right to forbid you to do anything. Go ahead and read if you wish, just make sure you don't end up relying on man's writings rather than God's guidance.

you do realise FAITH is a fruit of the Spirit ? that it comes by hearing the word of God - and you still fail to see it is imparted by God's grace.

Yes, faith is a fruit of the Spirit as per Galatians, but is it faith in Christ? Or is it faith as in faithfulness (because some versions of the bible translated it as faithfulness and not faith)? That is yet not understood, but seeing that Paul is writing to the Galatians who ALREADY believed in Christ, why would he write about faith in Christ again as a fruit of the Spirit? Does he really mean faith in that sense? It does require some careful meditation and seeking of understanding of God doesn't it?

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Though it may seem painful to Calvinists that there are errors in their theology,

Calvinists see it the other way around, and many of us are what we are because we would say God opened our eyes to the errors in Arminian theology, IOW He made it plain we were bringing and imposing erronous theological presuppositions in approaching Scripture. That said, not many sane people walk around thinking they have errors in their theology, so I understand where you are coming from, we just disagree, and I hope and pray God will lead us into truth, and illuminate our minds. amen

it is because there is a misplacement of faith and love in a theology rather than in what is plainly stated in the Word.

Honestly, it's a two way street. The same could be said of anybody we disagree with. The main problem I see is a generalization. I cannot speak for all Calvinists, but I have at times just simply quoted Scripture, because, to me at least, whatever point I am trying to get across is plainly stated in Scripture. The Calvinists I know the best, are in love with Christ. It is because of Christ and their commitment to His Lordship over their lives that motivates, compels them to teach and preach Biblical truths. The Calvinists I know love Scripture and because they have a high view of it, also quote it often.

I mean no offense, but that's what normally happens to people when they find that the thing that they adore is not what they think it to be.

I have gone through a similar experience, in my conversion from an Arminian worldview and interpretation to a Calvinist worldview and interpretation. Amazing Grace, that saved a wretch like me, I once was lost, but praise God he found me. Finally, the yoke of Christ, felt light, like it should.

I

f I were in the shoes of the Calvinists, and I loved Calvinism like they did and esteemed it to be the truth of God, it is only natural that I would feel offended when people start pointing out to me that Calvinism is not true and has much errors. I can understand that, and I really don't mean to rub the wound with salt by exposing the errors that are there.

Well, I appreciate your thoughtfulness, and know the difficulty of trying to communicate accurate meaning through a messageboard. I honestly do not think you have exposed any errors in Calvinism (well I know in your mind you have), and I for one am not offended by attempts expose error so much as insensitivity for fellow Christians. However, I see it on both sides, and I am as guilty as the next person. Would you like me to pass the salt?

 

[Terene]

Calvinists see it the other way around, and many of us are what we are because we would say God opened our eyes to the errors in Arminian theology, IOW He made it plain we were bringing and imposing erronous theological presuppositions in approaching Scripture. That said, not many sane people walk around thinking they have errors in their theology, so I understand where you are coming from, we just disagree, and I hope and pray God will lead us into truth, and illuminate our minds. amen

Oh? I would love to hear your story and how God showed you errors in Arminism. If you are willing, do provide me with a link and I'll look at it.

Honestly, it's a two way street. The same could be said of anybody we disagree with. The main problem I see is a generalization. I cannot speak for all Calvinists, but I have at times just simply quoted Scripture, because, to me at least, whatever point I am trying to get across is plainly stated in Scripture. The Calvinists I know the best, are in love with Christ. It is because of Christ and their commitment to His Lordship over their lives that motivates, compels them to teach and preach Biblical truths. The Calvinists I know love Scripture and because they have a high view of it, also quote it often.

Not if the person you disagree with has no preference for any theology. I, for instance, have no preference for any theology and neither do I consciously seek to defend any one. That is why if you see my discussions, I am almost never offended when people give opposite views or point out where my doctrines might be in error. If I were an Arminian today, maybe I would be offended when I hear Calvinism's viewpoints, but I am not, so I take no offense at all. But I am gravely concerned about whether Calvinism is true, and I took pains to examine every post I receive to make sure I am hearing what is biblical.

The sad fact is, when I gave some very direct (and perhaps pricking) statements about the errors that I do see, people start to get all heaty and accusations were railed at me like I am Calvinism's biggest enemy. I had to request that two of my threads be closed permanently because those accusations won't stop. I'm sure you are able to see that, if not, go back to those threads I started on this forum and look at how some posters reacted to me when I used my reason and logic to argue for the truth. I have forgiven those posters, but I can no longer allow myself to directly respond to them, lest I myself become personal and start attacking people. If these negative reactions to my direct posts are not the result of misplaced faith and love in a theology highly esteemed, how do you explain that?

If what you said is indeed true, I would not hesitate to praise God and encourage those Calvinists you know of their love for Christ. But what I see on these forums seem very different to me. I started out a thread or two in an attempt for a healthy discussion, but again and again, I am being dragged into contentions with false accusations and assumptions of my intentions by those who agree with Calvinism. What does it speak to me about them? Nothing positive really, and their reactions paint a very unhealthy picture to me about their theology as well. But setting that aside, I believe at least from those recent posts, you have shown me that you are different, and you deserve respect just like Skala. Both of you believe in Calvinism, and that has not stopped me from respecting you, and this further disapproves any false accusations against me that I am against the Calvinists.

If the discussions that I had with the other Calvinists on here can be as civilised and as respectful as that I have with you and Skala, much damage would have been avoided on both sides. It is a pity really that such never materialised, and now is still not materialising.

I have gone through a similar experience, in my conversion from an Arminian worldview and interpretation to a Calvinist worldview and interpretation. Amazing Grace, that saved a wretch like me, I once was lost, but praise God he found me. Finally, the yoke of Christ, felt light, like it should.

I'm glad that you found relief and peace with God, and I must say I did too. I still do face pressures (but mostly from my environment and my own tendency to worry too much), but God always brings me rest and peace when the storm is over. Yes, He even delivered me from wild dogs when I ran away from home due to persecution and He blessed me in ways I never even realised. Is His Grace limited? No, it's limitless, and I am beginning to understand that day by day. The fact that I am even breathing and writing this to you is because He sustains me, what more can I say? Let God be glorified!

Well, I appreciate your thoughtfulness, and know the difficulty of trying to communicate accurate meaning through a messageboard. I honestly do not think you have exposed any errors in Calvinism (well I know in your mind you have), and I for one am not offended by attempts expose error so much as insensitivity for fellow Christians. However, I see it on both sides, and I am as guilty as the next person. Would you like me to pass the salt?

I really do understand, but that isn't going to stop me from speaking the truth, because nothing but the truth will liberate people. It is indeed very difficult to communicate on here, especially when I am a direct person. My logic and reasoning are all here, and I welcome anyone to expound the truth to me if somehow I am wrong. You are also welcomed, and I hope we can all benefit and become more united after a discussion like this (though I can predict it is highly unlikely now).

I really don't care what I have accomplished or failed to accomplish, my only hope is that I speak the truth and the truth only. Even if I have failed to disprove Calvinism, as long as the truth is spoken and understood, I am grateful enough.

 

[cygnusx1]

I know not your testimony, so I cannot judge anything.

but you have , you made some assessment and told me by your prejudgement that I must needs avoid theologians and go to God and scripture alone , I have done that and that is why I am Calvinist !

Neither do I know the testimonies of Whitefield and Newton, so neither do I judge theirs.

well you have see above .

But the fact remains: if Calvinism is really true, why do I see such glaring contradictions and nonsensical conclusions from it?

consider another possibility.

I have not argued only once, but many times, repeating much of my reasoning and logic with what I do understand. I see no real refutation to those points, neither in this thread, nor in the previous threads I started. Is the truth so hard to defend? Or am I the one in grave delusion? I don't know, you tell me.

you have seen but not believed those many scriptures displaying faith and repentance are gifts .

here's another . "faith comes by hearing the word of God" if it comes it is not sourced by man nor is it resident in men from birth otherwise it could not "come" .

I asked you to not rely on man but God for the truth, I did not forbid you from reading people's work. Where did you get that idea from? Even if I were really to say so, I have no real right to forbid you to do anything. Go ahead and read if you wish, just make sure you don't end up relying on man's writings rather than God's guidance.

I told you , I do not rely upon man , in fact one of the tenets of Reformed faith is Sola Scriptura !

Yes, faith is a fruit of the Spirit as per Galatians, but is it faith in Christ? Or is it faith as in faithfulness (because some versions of the bible translated it as faithfulness and not faith)? That is yet not understood, but seeing that Paul is writing to the Galatians who ALREADY believed in Christ, why would he write about faith in Christ again as a fruit of the Spirit? Does he really mean faith in that sense? It does require some careful meditation and seeking of understanding of God doesn't it?

why is so difficult for you to follow ? faith is a fruit of the Spirit as is love joy peace ; if a person has faith they are faithful.

Moreover shall we who have been given this wealth of fruit place it in a fridge ? no , hence there is that ongoing movement in the Spirit .

The disciples asked Jesus to increase their faith , it seems they had no problem connecting the source .... perhaps the Lord told them "don't be silly you created your own faith , you increase it " !!! chapter and verse not found !

 

[heymikey80]

Sinful man is spiritual dead in his sins and he hates God and loves sin. Tell me how he, in that state, can choose Christ? It is impossible. Not because man is physically unable to choose Christ, but morally unable. This is how God can hold him accountable. Man deliberately and willfully rejects Christ by nature. Is God wrong in punishing him for that? Is He wrong in sending him to hell for that? No. Is there a choice to make? Yes! Does God command everyone to repent? Yes! But unless God illuminates the mind and changes the heart of the sinner, he will not repent and he will not believe. He will exercise his freewill to reject Christ continually, unless God steps in and saves Him. "By grace you are saved, through faith-and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God." God doesn't have to save anyone. He owes no one anything. So when He chooses to save someone it is only by His grace! And grace is unearned, undeserved, unmerited favor.

How much longer must this error be propagated? Was not Cornelius a Gentile who was an unregenerated sinner and yet he feared God and lived righteously in his spiritually dead state? Cornelius believed in God and feared Him, and this finally got his entire household saved because God saw his heart and honored him, and he did all this while being spiritually dead in his sins. Saying that men are unable to accept God while spiritually dead is an error that has been here all along, and is not a biblical doctrine at all. It is shocking to me how such an error can be so blinding that even what the Bible has clearly showed us is not able to lead out of error.

The statement is not an error, it's actually what Scripture says, and therefore it should be propagated as the truth of the Word of God against viewpoints alleging differently.

Cornelius was regenerate.

3Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." 4Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?" 5Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."
9Nicodemus said to him, "How can these things be?" 10Jesus answered him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? 11Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony. 12If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?"

 

[heymikey80]

And why were they uncircumcised in heart? Because they refuse to obey God. And why did they refuse to obey God? Because they did not apply God's Word to their heart (which is the essential for circumcision of their hearts) and they delighted in wickedness.

God circumcises the heart.

Now, I am expecting that you will soon start to tell me that these people, according to Calvinism, were predestined to be destroyed by God, and they merely rebelled against God as they were predestined to rebel. In that reasoning, Calvinism allegedly teaches that these men are created to be rebels against God, and thus reasonably they are predestined to destruction.

Paul and Peter on the subject:

21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? Rom 9

7So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe,
"The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,"
8and
"A stone of stumbling,
and a rock of offense."
They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do. 1 Peter 2​

Let me first be clear that none of us know whether some or many of those rebels eventually turned to Christ or not, so in this regard, we do not know what their "predestined fate" is. But what I hope to address is, why the reasoning under Calvinism is totally against all sense and right-mindedness.

Any philosopher could tell you, it is totally consistent with all sense and right-mindedness.

It's also Biblical.

In the very first book of the Bible, God told us that He created mankind in HIS IMAGE. This means that the qualities of mankind are exactly the same as that of God's, other than the fact that God is infinitely divine and has divine power that mankind does not have.

Exactly the same; not the same. Sorry, "in His image" is nothing more than, something is in man that is present in the invisible God.

Under Calvinism's reasoning, mankind does not have free will, and this means that the God who created us would not have free will either, since we are indeed created in His very image. Why would God, if He has free will, create mankind without free will, and yet consider mankind created in His own image? This is the first reason why Calvinism, while denying that free will exists in men, is totally without reason and sense in its theologies.

Produce a citation or retract. BTW, "The Potter's Freedom" (the title contradicts this assertion) as well as Calvin's "Institutes" point out that your allegation about God and indeed Calvinism is patently false.

Get facts straight. That's why you feel attacked, your facts aren't straight.

Second, if indeed these people as described in the Bible are predestined to be destroyed, and are uncircumcised in heart because God predestined it so, why would God still send His Spirit to work on their hearts, rendering them a chance to resist His Spirit (which Acts clearly shows they are doing)?

See above.

Clearly, predestination could not be the cause of their rebellion, neither could it be the cause of their uncircumcised heart.

Oh? The Apostle Peter thought differently.

If these people are already determined to be sent to everlasting fire (much like satan and his angels who rebelled and are destined to go to the lake of fire) even before they were born, God would not even sent His Spirit upon them for conviction (in the same way why God's Spirit has not convicted the devil nor any of his angels of their sins). The very fact that the most blessed God sent His Spirit to convict them shows that God in no way predestined their fate, but they themselves, by not applying His Word to circumcise their heart, and by active resisting of His Spirit's conviction, justly gather onto themselves the wrath of God.

That's clearly not the case. There's no reasoning here that requires God to do something He already knows will not save people. He knew Israel would rebel. He continued to send prophets.

So it's flatly clear God knows, and does things. Why? Speculating, because they're the right thing to do.

Thirdly, the fact that God has pronouced every single soul under heaven as sinners and that all deserve His judgement shows that all souls are created equal, and have equal rights to salvation.

God has pronounced some souls as His children, and given them eternal life.

Saying that God has predestined some to salvation and others to damnation shows that souls are not created equal, and this is what Calvinism asserts. If such assertion is by any chance true (which I whole-heartedly do not believe it to be so and I thank God that we are given equal rights to salvation), then God could not pronounce everyone as sinners nor could God consider anyone righteous in Christ. Consider the following.

Obviously this argument doesn't hold at all.

If I or anyone here are predestined to be saved apart from my choice to believe in Christ, why would Christ need to die for any one of us? Surely if God predestined us to be saved apart from us choosing to believe in Christ, Christ would not need to come and God can just receive us into heaven to be with Him without the Cross or even without resurrection.

Faith is not causative. Belief is an associated characteristic of those who are saved. Faith is not salvation. Christ is Savior, not our faith.

Or if I or anyone here are predestined to believe in Christ by God apart from our own free will choice, is it us who believe in Christ? What I mean here is, if I myself did not choose to believe in Christ, but God somehow caused me to believe, could it still be considered my belief?

Is that body your body? Wait, someone gave it to you, so it's not yours.

What logic has it that something given to you isn't yours?

Tropes like programming robots don't enhance your argument. You've programmed a robot that believes? Wow! It believes, huh. And you don't think you've given that to your automaton. Hm. That's a logical contradiction.

Such are the nonsensical conclusions we get from Calvinism's assertions.

Libertarian Free Will has had many problems in philosophy because its conclusions are nonsensical. It's why most philosophers are compatibilists.

Calvin was a compatibilist. Calvinists are mostly compatibilists.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Oh? I would love to hear your story and how God showed you errors in Arminism. If you are willing, do provide me with a link and I'll look at it.

I would love to, here is a link to one of them: My Tesimony: Part 1

My Testimony: Part 2

Not if the person you disagree with has no preference for any theology. I, for instance, have no preference for any theology and neither do I consciously seek to defend any one. That is why if you see my discussions, I am almost never offended when people give opposite views or point out where my doctrines might be in error. If I were an Arminian today, maybe I would be offended when I hear Calvinism's viewpoints, but I am not, so I take no offense at all. But I am gravely concerned about whether Calvinism is true, and I took pains to examine every post I receive to make sure I am hearing what is biblical.

I also started with no preference for any theology, and all I wanted to read was the Bible. If I had the same mindset today, I wouldn't even be posting on Christian Forums. I wouldn't risk becoming "indoctrined" with others ideas, thoughts, interpretations of Scripture. I understand where you're coming from. I had to learn things the long and hard way, I can be stubborn minded. Has it's advantages and disadvantages to be sure.

The sad fact is, when I gave some very direct (and perhaps pricking) statements about the errors that I do see, people start to get all heaty and accusations were railed at me like I am Calvinism's biggest enemy. I had to request that two of my threads be closed permanently because those accusations won't stop. I'm sure you are able to see that, if not, go back to those threads I started on this forum and look at how some posters reacted to me when I used my reason and logic to argue for the truth. I have forgiven those posters, but I can no longer allow myself to directly respond to them, lest I myself become personal and start attacking people. If these negative reactions to my direct posts are not the result of misplaced faith and love in a theology highly esteemed, how do you explain that?

I did notice...though I think we're all in the same mud pit slingin' mud at one another. But God put a soft spot in my heart for you. It is far easier to talk about grace, than to demonstrate it. Sometimes it takes a breather, just a step back, to re-gain some perspective.

If what you said is indeed true, I would not hesitate to praise God and encourage those Calvinists you know of their love for Christ. But what I see on these forums seem very different to me. I started out a thread or two in an attempt for a healthy discussion, but again and again, I am being dragged into contentions with false accusations and assumptions of my intentions by those who agree with Calvinism. What does it speak to me about them? Nothing positive really, and their reactions paint a very unhealthy picture to me about their theology as well. But setting that aside, I believe at least from those recent posts, you have shown me that you are different, and you deserve respect just like Skala. Both of you believe in Calvinism, and that has not stopped me from respecting you, and this further disapproves any false accusations against me that I am against the Calvinists.

I know you feel hurt, and I am sorry for you. These blasted messageboards make it easy to be impersonal and callous. Speaking for myself, I sometimes have an unhealthy habit of picking people's posts apart...without even considering where they might be coming from, without knowing what they've been through or where they're at in the faith. Sometimes it feels like my mind is a piece of puddy and God is stretching it...and does it ever hurt!

If the discussions that I had with the other Calvinists on here can be as civilised and as respectful as that I have with you and Skala, much damage would have been avoided on both sides. It is a pity really that such never materialised, and now is still not materialising.

Thankfully our faith is not in man.

I'm glad that you found relief and peace with God, and I must say I did too. I still do face pressures (but mostly from my environment and my own tendency to worry too much), but God always brings me rest and peace when the storm is over. Yes, He even delivered me from wild dogs when I ran away from home due to persecution and He blessed me in ways I never even realised. Is His Grace limited? No, it's limitless, and I am beginning to understand that day by day. The fact that I am even breathing and writing this to you is because He sustains me, what more can I say? Let God be glorified!

I have felt concern for you based on what little knowledge I have concerning China and Christianity.

I really do understand, but that isn't going to stop me from speaking the truth, because nothing but the truth will liberate people. It is indeed very difficult to communicate on here, especially when I am a direct person. My logic and reasoning are all here, and I welcome anyone to expound the truth to me if somehow I am wrong. You are also welcomed, and I hope we can all benefit and become more united after a discussion like this (though I can predict it is highly unlikely now).

Be careful with logic and reasoning, that's part of what led me into embracing Calvinism. (My testimony Part 2 gives some insight into this comment)

I really don't care what I have accomplished or failed to accomplish, my only hope is that I speak the truth and the truth only. Even if I have failed to disprove Calvinism, as long as the truth is spoken and understood, I am grateful enough.

God bless you sister!

 

[Skala]

@ Terene:

You did not reply me when I posted this in reply to your posts. I hope you did not just skip over my post because you don't like it. Because if you do scrutinise my post, you will see where I am coming from.

If I missed any of your posts, i apologize. I didn't ignore them or anything. I've read everything you've posted on this topic (to the best of my knowledge). If you would like me to respond to really important arguments, I would be honored to. In the past if I have not responded it may be for one of many reasons:

1) I might have not seen it, you know how fast threads move in these forums!
2) I'm always engaged in several conversations and it's hard to keep up sometimes
3) I might have felt that any previous post I typed addressed and answered whatever new arguments you have created

Also, I created a reply in your recent thread called "To all those who are truly saved" or something like that. Did you not see it? I am really curious what your thoughts are on it. (actually I can't find that thread anymore, did it get deleted?)

I am but a woman, but I also do believe I can do EVERYTHING THROUGH CHRIST. So if God is with me all the time, I believe even as I write this, He is with me to give me understanding. I have such confidence in God, what about you?

Of course I do. But God doesn't just give understanding to mere individuals, he gives understanding to the church as a whole. God said he would give gifts to the church in the form of preachers and teachers who had great ability to understand and teach the word.

Couple this with the fact that all of the greatest preachers, teachers, theologians, and soul-winners in church history were "Calvinists". And all of the historical church creeds and confessions of faith affirm the same thing. So the entire church for 2000 years stands as a big giant elephant in the room, and then there's Terene, who denies them, kicks against them, and asserts that they are wrong, and misled, and teaching a false gospel. Imagine how that looks, Terene. Plus, you're also asserting that God has lead his church wrong for 2000 years, since it's God himself who guides the church and in a sense appointed these church leaders and teachers and ordained these creeds, councils and confessions of faith.

That is because I see contradictions in Calvinism which cannot be explained other than acknowledging that Calvinism is not in line with the Word.

Terene, I don't think you know what a contradiction is. A logical contradiction is when I say something like "Bears have fur" and then I say 'bears do not have fur". Something cannot both be true and untrue at the same time. That's a contradiction. That's what contradiction means.

Now that contradiction has been defined, can you please tell me what contradictions you see in Calvinism?

I know not a single Arminian or Semi Pelagians in my life, neither did I read any of their works (or at least that I know of), so associating me with them does nothing to discredit me.

Yes you do Terene, you know plenty of them. They don't have to actually know they are Arminians or Semi-Ps, because the labels have nothing to do with what you call yourself, but rather, what you believe. For example, a person who believes God is 3 persons yet 1 God is a trinitarian, even if he's never heard of the phrase and even if he doesn't call himself one. At the end of the day, he believes the same thing Trinitarians believe, and its his beliefs that make him a trinitarian, not his acknowledgement of the label/title. Calvinism and Arminianism are theological titles that exist to explain a set of a beliefs a person has. It's impossible to deny that one is a Trinitarian and yet affirm the concepts of the Trinity.

But I don't see the same kind of open-mindedness from you and others here who vehemently defend Calvinism even when I pointed out with reason and with logic why it is contradictory to the Scriptures. I wonder why is that so?

Again, I must have failed to see these contradictions. Can you summarize them for me? Also, I wonder why the church (mentioned above) has missed these or been too blind or had too little knowledge to discover what you have discovered Terene? That's quite an accomplishment.

I hope you don't think I'm being harsh here, but honestly, this is like when the junior accountant fresh out of college walks up to a 50 year experienced head of an accounting firm and tells him he's wrong and has been wrong for his entire career.

It's like I said:

In this corner:

All of the greatest teachers and theologians in church history, as well as all of most well known church creeds and confessions of faith.

In this corner: Terene, the young girl who lives in the 21st century, who has only ever been exposed to today's watered down "modern Christianity", who says they are all wrong! (I put myself here too, because i was in your shoes once)

Don't you think for just one second that maybe it's possible that you're wrong? Have you ever stopped to think that maybe you are understanding things filtered through your modern day understanding of "free will" being that you live in a society of "have it my way" and "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps" mentality? Do you ever stop to think that maybe your background and upbringing and what your parents and pastor believed and taught you may be affecting your belief?

In other words, don't for a second think you aren't biased one way or another. We should all try to be open minded here. That goes for me too.

 

[Skala]

The disciples asked Jesus to increase their faith , it seems they had no problem connecting the source .... perhaps the Lord told them "don't be silly you created your own faith , you increase it " !!! chapter and verse not found !

Lol this is a great point

 

[spiritual warrior]

The disciples asked Jesus to increase their faith , it seems they had no problem connecting the source .... perhaps the Lord told them "don't be silly you created your own faith , you increase it " !!! chapter and verse not found !

Lol this is a great point

I find it interesting that, in context, Jesus was not speaking to them anything about faith, the disciples (as was their normal response from time to time, being ignorant and untaught men) just blurted something out at random and some try to use this to their advantage.

I also find it interesting that, even after this outburst about faith, that Jesus instructed them concerning faith...no where do we read that He "increased their faith." The crack about them realizing Jesus as the source of their faith is hilarious - He is NOT the source of faith, He is the object of faith, and if the object is also the source, then you have absolutely no logical basis for faith itself...logic...something I fail to see a lot of in some of these arguments.

 

[spiritual warrior]

You are throwing these terms around almost as if they are synonymous in meaning. Also, you did not say theistic fatalism earlier. What is that? What is your working definition?

Lets begin with the definition of fatalism - the doctrine that whatever happens to you has been determined already, that you cannot get away from your destiny, that you are simply living out what was predetermined about you and you have no control over it. When we mix this with atheistic means, you have atheistic fatalism. When you mix it with Christianity, then you have "christian" fatalism...meaning that God has already determined everything that you are going to do, everything that happens to you, that you have no say so in the matter and cannot change anything because "who can resist God's will?"

Whether one goes ultra-crazy and believes that God determined what pair of socks he would put on today, or simply states that God has predetermined who will walk with Him in glory...whichever level of such is taken, it is fatalism. No where, in context, does God tell us that He chooses who will walk with Him...that is fatalism to a certain level, whether we involve Augustine or Calvin or not. Scripture does not teach this anywhere.

Saying "God having an influence or certain kind of control over all that happens in the universe = Fatalism" will not work, unless your purpose is to demonize Calvinism with insubstantial rhetorical constructions.

Not "having influence or certain kind of control" but direct, purposefully making it happen because He wants it to happen. Yes, God does do things that He wants to happen, like the flood, or creation itself, but no where is it even hinted at, taken in context and properly, hermeneutically, interpreted, does God tell us that He chooses certain ones for life and all else for eternity in flames solely based upon His election. That is a slap in the face to God and to His character.

Why can't you just admit that you wanted to try to demonize Calvin via Augustine and have done with it? It has been done many times before and refuted.

I have no intent on demonizing the man. All I have been trying to say from day 1 is that what he wrote was not then, nor is it now, properly interpreted according to the whole Word of God. To me, you clinging to Calvin and thinking that he was right on the money is the same as you clinging to David Koresh thinking that he was right on the money.

We are to be like the Bereans and take what men say with a grain of salt and study the Word on our own to see whether what man says is true or not. Sadly, more than not, men seem to want to stick with what they originally were taught...they seem like they can not lay aside their dogmatism and look at scripture with a fresh, clear eye to ascertain whether or not what they have is truth.

I am not picking on Calvin, nor Arminius, but they both were wrong on certain points in their personal theology...especially since neither one understood that God deals with us through covenants. Their doctrines missed completely the fact that all scripture that deals with redemption originates and is to be interpreted through the covenant from which they originate.

The plain fact is...if man has no free will to choose God or the world, then God implementing the covenants was not only nonsensical and a waste of time, but is actually illogical and immoral against God's revealed character.