Romans 14:23

[Edial]

Interesting view. Then you mean that the guy in 23 is condemend by the object bible truth, rather than his own illusory conscience?

We cannot go around the Bible regardless of what our conscience says.
Let's say the conscience of Arab Christians who do not eat pork due to cultural environment condemns them when they do.
Yes, the faith is weak.
But that's the fact of life.
One's conscience is molded by the environment, school, teachings of parents.
So, at that particular time, the conscience has a greater say than the faith.

So, we sin by listening to our conscience ... yet we get more grace.

As long as our faith grows and we attempt to walk by faith ... we would always get more grace while sinning due to our habits, conscience and/or nature.

If however, we refuse to walk by faith - no grace but a smack on the bottom.

Thanks,
In Christ,
Ed

 

[Edial]

Does it boil down to legalism yet again? Some folks say everything is a sin against the soul and will send you on your way to a very warm place. It has robbed me of much joy in my life. Can't, can't can't, can't, can't, can't. Is there anything one can do except eat and sleep without sinning?

I covered some of it here ...
Romans 14:23 - Page 3 - Christian Forums

We are sinners who are saved by grace.

We cannot help but sin, yet as long as we attempt to walk by faith (which is a lifetime process) we get grace and do not get what our sins deserve.
I am not referring to hell.
I am referring to our daily lives.

We are incapable of NOT sinning.
(And I am taking the extreme reference to word "sin" meaning missing the mark, missing the perfection of God).

Yet, as we are trying to follow Jesus while riding a tricycle on an uneven road - that is life which is filled with bumps on the road.

Thanks,
In Christ,
Ed

 

[heymikey80]

I'm reminded of a comment: "Two wrongs don't make a right."

Just because conscience prevents the "right" action, doesn't mean that violating conscience must be "right". Instead, conscience is accommodated until there's growth in discernment and strength of will.

 

[miamited]

Hi Rick,

Well, it must at least go as far as this. "I truly believe that the great Buddha will save my soul." If I believe it, it ain't sin, right?

I wonder how God feels about that person?

God bless you all
In Christ, Ted

 

[Frogster]

We cannot go around the Bible regardless of what our conscience says.
Let's say the conscience of Arab Christians who do not eat pork due to cultural environment condemns them when they do.
Yes, the faith is weak.
But that's the fact of life.
One's conscience is molded by the environment, school, teachings of parents.
So, at that particular time, the conscience has a greater say than the faith.

So, we sin by listening to our conscience ... yet we get more grace.

As long as our faith grows and we attempt to walk by faith ... we would always get more grace while sinning due to our habits, conscience and/or nature.

If however, we refuse to walk by faith - no grace but a smack on the bottom.

Thanks,
In Christ,
Ed

When u really think about it though, sin is relative. Paul said it was not him, but sin in his adamic creation in rom 7:17 and 20.

In other words, the whole old creation order is on the cross, and technically we are raised up in Christ, and stand where he is, Rom 5:2, a sphere, and where he is, the last Adam, there is no sin in that dominion, rom 5:21, there can't be, so when we see sin, we are really viewing the past.

 

[Tangible]

Frog Guy, I think you're going down the wrong trail when you say that this leads to legalism. To say that everything that does not proceed from faith is sin simply shines the 500 watt halogen beam of the Law on our own sinful flesh. It shows us our desperate need for a savior.

It actually puts to death any legalistic tendencies we all have that makes us think we can actually not sin. We aren't sinners because we sin, we sin because we're sinners. It's what we naturally do.

It's why we need to live in constant repentance. It's why we must take it as an article of faith that we are indeed forgiven, despite our best efforts to justify ourselves. It's why God's grace is so incredibly radical that we can't wrap our natural minds around it. We can only grasp it by faith.

 

[Frogster]

Frog Guy, I think you're going down the wrong trail when you say that this leads to legalism. To say that everything that does not proceed from faith is sin simply shines the 500 watt halogen beam of the Law on our own sinful flesh. It shows us our desperate need for a savior.

It actually puts to death any legalistic tendencies we all have that makes us think we can actually not sin. We aren't sinners because we sin, we sin because we're sinners. It's what we naturally do.

It's why we need to live in constant repentance. It's why we must take it as an article of faith that we are indeed forgiven, despite our best efforts to justify ourselves. It's why God's grace is so incredibly radical that we can't wrap our natural minds around it. We can only grasp it by faith.

I edited, I think I misread your thoughts.


What I am saying is, that 23 was really just Paul showing that the weak guy, is all messed up now, because in his own subjective experience, he feels like he is in sin, even though he may not actually be. The thrust of 14 was really, in context, a teaching about conscience.

Do I think Paul was laying down doctrine, to tell everyone, that whatever of faith in their lives is not of sin? No. Not contextually. He was just showing a principle.

 

[Frogster]

Frog Guy, I think you're going down the wrong trail when you say that this leads to legalism. To say that everything that does not proceed from faith is sin simply shines the 500 watt halogen beam of the Law on our own sinful flesh. It shows us our desperate need for a savior.

It actually puts to death any legalistic tendencies we all have that makes us think we can actually not sin. We aren't sinners because we sin, we sin because we're sinners. It's what we naturally do.

It's why we need to live in constant repentance. It's why we must take it as an article of faith that we are indeed forgiven, despite our best efforts to justify ourselves. It's why God's grace is so incredibly radical that we can't wrap our natural minds around it. We can only grasp it by faith.

I could just as easily say, if one really did grasp grace, there would not be a need for constantly repenting over the adamic creation. Isn't that really just living under law, see adam, arouse adam, repent of sin, then try again the next day?

 

[Steve Petersen]

This passage seems to be directed at a mixed congregation of Jewish and non-Jewish believers. The Jewish believers appear to be exercising traditional Jewish practice in regards to foods presented by Gentiles: not eating Gentile food and wine (though falling within the category of permissible under Leviticus 11) because of the possibility that those foods had been part of an offering to an idol. The fact that Paul uses the word 'stumbling block' in this chapter seems to confirm this (see Ezekiel 14:7, Revelation 2:14.)

To this day, Orthodox Jews are not permitted to eat food from a Gentile except for unprepared fruits and vegetables.

There is another element of this passage that is overlooked. Translators have taken the word Greek word 'koinos' and rendered it 'unclean.' If the intention is to equate 'koinos' with Levitically unclean foods then they are wrong. The Greek equivalent of Levitcally unclean foods used in Leviticus 11 (via the Septuagint) is 'akathartos.'

Within the context of Second Temple Judaism, foods that were otherwise permissible, but not slaughtered in the biblically prescribed manner were rendered 'common' or 'koinos.' As for drink, wine offered by a Gentile was presumed to have been offered to an idol, and thus also became 'common' and not fit for consumption by Jews.

You can see how this could have created hard feelings in a congregation of mixed Jewish and Gentile believers in Jesus.

 

[New_Wineskin]

In the case of alcohol there may be also medical reasons to abstain which do get ignored by those having medical and or addiction problems. One can't be faulted for the problems of others. If one is doing something to flaunt or for the purpose of inciting of any reason I personally think it is sin.

I take it that you agreed with my follow up post . To clarify my first post ...

I indicated no flaunting or inciting . It was all on the person who considered it wrong with their eating partner neither encouraging nor discouraging them . I wrote that the person ordering the drink did so on their own - that is it . The person who was thinking it wrong was making the decision all by themself .

 

[Frogster]

If we take the "whatever is not of faith, is sin" verse, out of it's context, and go up to a Christians and tell them that, we must realize the ramifications.

Wow, every thought, action, feeling must me monitored now. Talk about fear, over self introspection, and law.

 

[Tangible]

I could just as easily say, if one really did grasp grace, there would not be a need for constantly repenting over the adamic creation. Isn't that really just living under law, see adam, arouse adam, repent of sin, then try again the next day?

But we do live under the law, under the condemnation of the law. Our old adam is constantly seeking his own way, either in rebellion to God or in trying to earn righteousness by correct behavior. It don't work.

The life of the Christian is a constant battle between the old man and the new. The old man can do nothing but sin. They new man is remade in the image of God and cannot sin. In our flesh, we are constantly missing the mark of perfection, and in fact cannot do anything but. The old man cannot be healed, or reformed, or re-educated. He must be put to death, drowned in the waters of our baptism so that our new man may be raised up again by faith to walk in newness of life.

That's what repentance is. Constantly turning from ourselves to God, from works to faith. Repentance is a gift from God, not something that we are naturally able to do. It's all God's doing, yet we are the ones acting.

Wow, every thought, action, feeling must me monitored now. Talk about fear, over self introspection, and law.

Talk about thankfulness and joy at our forgiven state in Christ and faith in the works of Christ alone for our salvation, completely apart from anything we could ever do or keep from doing.

 

[Frogster]

But we do live under the law, under the condemnation of the law. Our old adam is constantly seeking his own way, either in rebellion to God or in trying to earn righteousness by correct behavior. It don't work.

The life of the Christian is a constant battle between the old man and the new. The old man can do nothing but sin. They new man is remade in the image of God and cannot sin. In our flesh, we are constantly missing the mark of perfection, and in fact cannot do anything but. The old man cannot be healed, or reformed, or re-educated. He must be put to death, drowned in the waters of our baptism so that our new man may be raised up again by faith to walk in newness of life.

That's what repentance is. Constantly turning from ourselves to God, from works to faith. Repentance is a gift from God, not something that we are naturally able to do. It's all God's doing, yet we are the ones acting.

Talk about thankfulness and joy at our forgiven state in Christ and faith in the works of Christ alone for our salvation, completely apart from anything we could ever do or keep from doing.

Welp, I understand what you're sayin. I just tend to think if people are constantly repenting, for what they already died to, then they are way to conscious of the old creation.

Indeed the struggle exists, but much of the struggle is because of law.

I mean, if apart from law, adam lies dead, rom 7:8, it sounds like the arousal of adam, and the constant seeing him, repenting of him, shows a law dynamic at work.

If we are raised up and outta him, we are outta him. Reckon , rom 6:11.

What I mean is, I like my new home better.

 

[Optimax]

For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin


Isn’t Paul really just trying to show, about the weak person, in his subjective experience, he thinks it is sin, because in his weak conscience, he is not eating in faith, because he does not know, or is confused about his food, so to him subjectively it is sin., even though it is not objectively.

In other words, isn’t Paul really just showing things about the conscience in 14, and how things are relative, not that he is saying "for whatever does not proceed from faith is sin", in a kind of “life verse” truth, for all things? Isn’t that really the context and teaching of 14?

No, he isn't.

Paul said what he meant and meant what he said.

For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

 

[Tangible]

Welp, I understand what you're sayin. I just tend to think if people are constantly repenting, for what they already died to, then they are way to conscious of the old creation.

Indeed the struggle exists, but much of the struggle is because of law.

I mean, if apart from law, adam lies dead, rom 7:8, it sounds like the arousal of adam, and the constant seeing him, repenting of him, shows a law dynamic at work.

If we are raised up and outta him, we are outta him. Reckon , rom 6:11.

What I mean is, I like my new home better.

I think we're saying the same thing really.

The Christian is simultaneously a saint and a sinner, and even though we already are victorious, seated with Christ at the right hand of God, we are still trapped in this sinful flesh.

I certainly like my new home too! By God's grace we are able to walk in the newness of life, but this new life is a now-and-not-yet kind of thing. We possess all righteousness and power in Christ, yet for now this inheritance is veiled. We await the complete revealing of our new nature when we are raised again in the likeness of Christ.

 

[Frogster]

No, he isn't.

Paul said what he meant and meant what he said.

For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

Context my ole friend, context....In the weak guys own mind, he was confused.

 

[Frogster]

I think we're saying the same thing really.

The Christian is simultaneously a saint and a sinner, and even though we already are victorious, seated with Christ at the right hand of God, we are still trapped in this sinful flesh.

I certainly like my new home too! By God's grace we are able to walk in the newness of life, but this new life is a now-and-not-yet kind of thing. We possess all righteousness and power in Christ, yet for now this inheritance is veiled. We await the complete revealing of our new nature when we are raised again in the likeness of Christ.

Well said bro.

 

[Edial]

When u really think about it though, sin is relative. Paul said it was not him, but sin in his adamic creation in rom 7:17 and 20.

In other words, the whole old creation order is on the cross, and technically we are raised up in Christ, and stand where he is, Rom 5:2, a sphere, and where he is, the last Adam, there is no sin in that dominion, rom 5:21, there can't be, so when we see sin, we are really viewing the past.

Our deeds are sinful, yet Paul is blaming the Sin for that and not himself.
Why?
Well, he is saying he does not want to sin, he is resisting it, yet he is feeling that pull of sin that drags him away.
He knows he shouldn't sin, yet sins and then feels horrible about it.

(He was probably yelling at people anyway.
He would not have lasted in CF for 6 months.
Him and Martin Luther )

However, he is taking a strong responsibility concerning his actions saying he is beating his body down to make it obey.

He is like always trying to handle and tune his body like we do an older car.
No speeding, no sharp turns otherwise he might lay an egg.

You see, our actions often hurt others and that breaks Christ's 2nd Commandment.
And the message of the Bible is that we are responsible for our actions regardless of whether we or sin is doing the harm.

You see, a theological understanding of old man and new man is not really practical in real life.
It is encouraging, but not practical.

Thanks,
In Christ,
Ed

 

[Edial]

I think we're saying the same thing really.

The Christian is simultaneously a saint and a sinner, and even though we already are victorious, seated with Christ at the right hand of God, we are still trapped in this sinful flesh.

I certainly like my new home too! By God's grace we are able to walk in the newness of life, but this new life is a now-and-not-yet kind of thing. We possess all righteousness and power in Christ, yet for now this inheritance is veiled. We await the complete revealing of our new nature when we are raised again in the likeness of Christ.

Boy, those Lutherans are driving me crazy.

 

[Frogster]

Our deeds are sinful, yet Paul is blaming the Sin for that and not himself.
Why?
Well, he is saying he does not want to sin, he is resisting it, yet he is feeling that pull of sin that drags him away.
He knows he shouldn't sin, yet sins and then feels horrible about it.

(He was probably yelling at people anyway.
He would not have lasted in CF for 6 months.
Him and Martin Luther )

However, he is taking a strong responsibility concerning his actions saying he is beating his body down to make it obey.

He is like always trying to handle and tune his body like we do an older car.
No speeding, no sharp turns otherwise he might lay an egg.

You see, our actions often hurt others and that breaks Christ's 2nd Commandment.
And the message of the Bible is that we are responsible for our actions regardless of whether we or sin is doing the harm.

You see, a theological understanding of old man and new man is not really practical in real life.
It is encouraging, but not practical.

Thanks,
In Christ,
Ed

What makes you say?

"You see, a theological understanding of old man and new man is not really practical in real life."

Isn't the whole point of Rom 6, to show us how to make it practical, along with Gal 5:16-18?

Besides, sure, today I buffeted my body too, I kept working, I gnored the tirednness, but it that is not a philosophy that takes away the Adamic pull.

Paul was not exactly teaching old man, new man theology there.