Romans 14:23

[Frogster]

In my experience, I think people often quote this verse, without understanding the context. They will throw it at people, and say, "hey whatever is not of faith is sin!"


I don’t think Paul meant to say, that whatever is not of faith in our lives is sin, in that kind of broad manner. Who does not have fear now and then? Who walks in perfect faith all the time?

14:23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

Romans 14 is a real subjective kind of thing. To one, a certain day is something, to another foods are, to another foods or days are not.

There is objective truth. Jesus said clean, but to some, subjectively it is not. One person thinks it is unclean, even though it is not. Paul is showing both, subject, object.


14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean.

Paul is showing more object truth in 17, but also showing the subject truth, of a weak conscience later in 23.. 14:1 opens, talking about the weak conscience, which was what the chapter is about. He is showing both. Fact, the kingdom is..…


17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.


Here, Paul is saying, it is ok, between you and God, subjective, that person is ok in his own mind, subjectively. He eats in faith, he is not feeling condemned.

22 The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves.

That verse set the stage for the subjectivity of this verse, I believe is often quoted to others, incorrectly.

14:23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin


Isn’t Paul really just trying to show, about the weak person, in his subjective experience, he thinks it is sin, because in his weak conscience, he is not eating in faith, because he does not know, or is confused about his food, so to him subjectively it is sin., even though it is not objectively.

In other words, isn’t Paul really just showing things about the conscience in 14, and how things are relative, not that he is saying "for whatever does not proceed from faith is sin", in a kind of “life verse” truth, for all things? Isn’t that really the context and teaching of 14?

 

[New_Wineskin]

I have always looked at that passage as saying that , if you think something is wrong and allow yourself to do it anyway , it is a sin . Just because someone else has the freedom to do something doesn't mean that you have such a freedom .

Like alcohol ... you and someone you respect are eating dinner . That person decides to have some wine not knowing that you would have a problem with it ( haveing been told that drinking alcohol is a sin ) . So , you think that , since that person is respectable and alcohol is ok for them , alcohol must be ok for you , as well . However , you are not fully convinced but want to be sociable and be sociable . Since there is some doubt , there is no faith in that area . So , to do so is sin .

 

[granpa]

he is contrasting faith with doubt.
if you have doubts about it being clean then it probably is unclean for you.

 

[Rick Otto]

In my experience, I think people often quote this verse, without understanding the context. They will throw it at people, and say, "hey whatever is not of faith is sin!"

So what sin is it you are feeling defensive about? Have you been eating bugs again?

In other words, isn’t Paul really just showing things about the conscience in 14, and how things are relative, not that he is saying "for whatever does not proceed from faith is sin", in a kind of “life verse” truth, for all things? Isn’t that really the context and teaching of 14?

I don't want to know. I don't want to be held responsible for my conscience.

Sorry,... I'm still alive & its The Weekend!

 

[Frogster]

I have always looked at that passage as saying that , if you think something is wrong and allow yourself to do it anyway , it is a sin . Just because someone else has the freedom to do something doesn't mean that you have such a freedom .

Like alcohol ... you and someone you respect are eating dinner . That person decides to have some wine not knowing that you would have a problem with it ( haveing been told that drinking alcohol is a sin ) . So , you think that , since that person is respectable and alcohol is ok for them , alcohol must be ok for you , as well . However , you are not fully convinced but want to be sociable and be sociable . Since there is some doubt , there is no faith in that area . So , to do so is sin .

I think we are saying the same thing?

Paul seems to basically be pointing out that judging that person, has messed with his conscience, and now he is needlessly condemned, which is not good, because the weak guy dosen't really know what to do, but he is now all guilted out.

But I think we both agree, the verse was not meant for some to go around telling others, that whatever is not of faith in their lives, is sin, in a general manner.

Yet, is he really sinning?

 

[Edial]

RO 14:23 But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

The way I see it ... "his eating is not from faith" means from faith in what God says concerning food. Faith in what the Bible says that all food is clean.

And "everything that does not come from faith is sin" means if we willfully do anything that is contrary to the Bible, we sin.
We know that the Bible says love your enemy, yet we still cannot wrap our mind against this concept, have no faith in what the Bible says ... then we sin when we say "I hope he rots in hell".

"everything that does not come from faith (in what God/Bible says) is sin"

That's the way I see it.

In Christ,
Ed

 

[Frogster]

he is contrasting faith with doubt.
if you have doubts about it being clean then it probably is unclean for you.

I agree, we all view life in a type of subjective view, but still, we can be condemend, even though it is not sin.

 

[Frogster]

So what sin is it you are feeling defensive about? Have you been eating bugs again?
I don't want to know. I don't want to be held responsible for my conscience.

Sorry,... I'm still alive & its The Weekend!

you're projecting, that I am projecting.

 

[Frogster]

RO 14:23 But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

The way I see it ... "his eating is not from faith" means from faith in what God says concerning food. Faith in what the Bible says that all food is clean.

And "everything that does not come from faith is sin" means if we willfully do anything that is contrary to the Bible, we sin.
We know that the Bible says love your enemy, yet we still cannot wrap our mind against this concept, have no faith in what the Bible says ... then we sin when we say "I hope he rots in hell".

"everything that does not come from faith (in what God/Bible says) is sin"

That's the way I see it.

In Christ,
Ed

Interesting view. Then you mean that the guy in 23 is condemend by the object bible truth, rather than his own illusory conscience?

 

[Rick Otto]

I think you're right except i'm not sure if what I'm thinking you're saying is what you think you are saying. I'm confused on the import of subjectivity.
So can ritual clean our conscience?
is the answer yes if we truly believe it can?
I don't mean to push limits, but i wonder how far this goes in any direction.
Good OP except,... I can't believe I'm talkin' to a frog.

 

[Rick Otto]

Interesting view. Then you mean that the guy in 23 is condemend by the object bible truth, rather than his own illusory conscience?

I think he means to eat in doubt is sin.

Not about ritual cleanliness, but i often have doubts about what I'm eating.

Hey! Donald Trump wears gloves for cryin' out loud, OK?

 

[New_Wineskin]

I think we are saying the same thing?

Paul seems to basically be pointing out that judging that person, has messed with his conscience, and now he is needlessly condemned, which is not good, because the weak guy dosen't really know what to do, but he is now all guilted out.

But I think we both agree, the verse was not meant for some to go around telling others, that whatever is not of faith in their lives, is sin, in a general manner.

Yet, is he really sinning?

Are you asking that , if one doesn't know for sure that everything they are currently doing is what the Lord wants them to do right now , they are sinning ?

If so , then no . That is going in the opposite direction . It would actually make you doubt *everything* which would *then* make *everything* sin . Those that would go around saying what you mentiooned above are merely attempting to take freedom away from christians . It is legalistic to the nth degree .

As is , I am fine doing things about which the Lord has told me nothing . Which brings up the passage concerning " all things are lawful for me " .

Another way to answer your question is that people who would go around doing that ( telling others that anything that is not of faith is sin ) , is looking that as walking according to the Law - not of faith - making themselves sinful .

 

[Frogster]

I think you're right except i'm not sure if what I'm thinking you're saying is what you think you are saying. I'm confused on the import of subjectivity.
So can ritual clean our conscience?
is the answer yes if we truly believe it can?
I don't mean to push limits, but i wonder how far this goes in any direction.
Good OP except,...I can't believe I'm talkin' to a frog.

Maybe because way down deep, in your soul, there is a deep longing to return to a reptilian simplicity, of aguatic life, where just the simple urges in life, are all that matter. How is the pond scum, are the crickets beefy, are my legs in shape, etc.

 

[Frogster]

Are you asking that , if one doesn't know for sure that everything they are currently doing is what the Lord wants them to do right now , they are sinning ?

If so , then no . That is going in the opposite direction . It would actually make you doubt *everything* which would *then* make *everything* sin . Those that would go around saying what you mentiooned above are merely attempting to take freedom away from christians . It is legalistic to the nth degree .

As is , I am fine doing things about which the Lord has told me nothing . Which brings up the passage concerning " all things are lawful for me " .

Another way to answer your question is that people who would go around doing that ( telling others that anything that is not of faith is sin ) , is looking that as walking according to the Law - not of faith - making themselves sinful .

I understand what you mean NW. You say good things.

 

[from scratch]

In my experience, I think people often quote this verse, without understanding the context. They will throw it at people, and say, "hey whatever is not of faith is sin!"


I don’t think Paul meant to say, that whatever is not of faith in our lives is sin, in that kind of broad manner. Who does not have fear now and then? Who walks in perfect faith all the time?

14:23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

Romans 14 is a real subjective kind of thing. To one, a certain day is something, to another foods are, to another foods or days are not.

There is objective truth. Jesus said clean, but to some, subjectively it is not. One person thinks it is unclean, even though it is not. Paul is showing both, subject, object.


14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean.

Paul is showing more object truth in 17, but also showing the subject truth, of a weak conscience later in 23.. 14:1 opens, talking about the weak conscience, which was what the chapter is about. He is showing both. Fact, the kingdom is..…


17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.


Here, Paul is saying, it is ok, between you and God, subjective, that person is ok in his own mind, subjectively. He eats in faith, he is not feeling condemned.

22 The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves.

That verse set the stage for the subjectivity of this verse, I believe is often quoted to others, incorrectly.

14:23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin


Isn’t Paul really just trying to show, about the weak person, in his subjective experience, he thinks it is sin, because in his weak conscience, he is not eating in faith, because he does not know, or is confused about his food, so to him subjectively it is sin., even though it is not objectively.

In other words, isn’t Paul really just showing things about the conscience in 14, and how things are relative, not that he is saying "for whatever does not proceed from faith is sin", in a kind of “life verse” truth, for all things? Isn’t that really the context and teaching of 14?

As in many areas of my life I get the message that we're to seek the lowest level in everything to accommodate everybody. This is a real problem.

 

[Frogster]

I think he means to eat in doubt is sin.

Not about ritual cleanliness, but i often have doubts about what I'm eating.

Hey! Donald Trump wears gloves for cryin' out loud, OK?

you're just jealous of his hair.

 

[from scratch]

I have always looked at that passage as saying that , if you think something is wrong and allow yourself to do it anyway , it is a sin . Just because someone else has the freedom to do something doesn't mean that you have such a freedom .

Like alcohol ... you and someone you respect are eating dinner . That person decides to have some wine not knowing that you would have a problem with it ( haveing been told that drinking alcohol is a sin ) . So , you think that , since that person is respectable and alcohol is ok for them , alcohol must be ok for you , as well . However , you are not fully convinced but want to be sociable and be sociable . Since there is some doubt , there is no faith in that area . So , to do so is sin .

So we justify behavior against everything else. In the case of alcohol there may be also medical reasons to abstain which do get ignored by those having medical and or addiction problems. One can't be faulted for the problems of others. If one is doing something to flaunt or for the purpose of inciting of any reason I personally think it is sin.

 

[from scratch]

RO 14:23 But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

The way I see it ... "his eating is not from faith" means from faith in what God says concerning food. Faith in what the Bible says that all food is clean.

And "everything that does not come from faith is sin" means if we willfully do anything that is contrary to the Bible, we sin.
We know that the Bible says love your enemy, yet we still cannot wrap our mind against this concept, have no faith in what the Bible says ... then we sin when we say "I hope he rots in hell".

"everything that does not come from faith (in what God/Bible says) is sin"

That's the way I see it.

In Christ,
Ed

Does it boil down to legalism yet again? Some folks say everything is a sin against the soul and will send you on your way to a very warm place. It has robbed me of much joy in my life. Can't, can't can't, can't, can't, can't. Is there anything one can do except eat and sleep without sinning?

 

[from scratch]

I think you're right except i'm not sure if what I'm thinking you're saying is what you think you are saying. I'm confused on the import of subjectivity.
So can ritual clean our conscience?
is the answer yes if we truly believe it can?
I don't mean to push limits, but i wonder how far this goes in any direction.
Good OP except,... I can't believe I'm talkin' to a frog.

Then how about talking to scratch - nothing?

 

[from scratch]

Are you asking that , if one doesn't know for sure that everything they are currently doing is what the Lord wants them to do right now , they are sinning ?

If so , then no . That is going in the opposite direction . It would actually make you doubt *everything* which would *then* make *everything* sin . Those that would go around saying what you mentiooned above are merely attempting to take freedom away from christians . It is legalistic to the nth degree .

As is , I am fine doing things about which the Lord has told me nothing . Which brings up the passage concerning " all things are lawful for me " .

Another way to answer your question is that people who would go around doing that ( telling others that anything that is not of faith is sin ) , is looking that as walking according to the Law - not of faith - making themselves sinful .