Let's Talk About Hell (2)

[LittleLambofJesus]

*snip*

Perry Stone also mentioned that the word “Sheol” is translated as the word “Hell” 31 times, and then added immediately after “sometimes as grave”.

The only Greek word for Hell that represents a place of burning is “Gehenna”. It should be noted that Gehenna was on the surface of the earth. I shall discuss this in greater detail in the next section below.....

I was surprised to see that my bro Saul/Paul never mentioned that word in his Epistles, and in fact, it is only mentioned 1 time outside of the Gospels

http://www.christianforums.com/t7464995/
Why no mention of "gehenna" in Paul's Epistles?

Matthew 23:2 saying "upon the seat of Moses are seated the Scribes and the Pharisees
33 "Serpents! produce of vipers! how? ye may be fleeing from the judging of the geennhV <1067>

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
Strong's Number G1067 matches the Greek &#947;&#8051;&#949;&#957;&#957;&#945; (geenna), which occurs 12 times in 12 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

 

[FredVB]

I was surprised to see that my bro Saul/Paul never mentioned that word in his Epistles, and in fact, it is only mentioned 1 time outside of the Gospels

It is a moot point where something is not mentioned, if it is mentioned sufficiently elsewhere in scripture. I cannot think of any doctrinal statement that you can find from every writer in the Bible.

Gehenna corresponds to lake of fire mentioned in the Book of Revelation, it would be in the future, Christ mentioned everlasting punishment and anguish, so thatis what it will be, Hades corresponds to Sheol, it is the place of the dead that depart from this world, immediately after death prior to the judgment for which those who did not come to redemption in Christ, who after that will be cast to the fiery Gehenna. It woould make no sense for Christ to portray these things if it were not to be that way, and would make no sense for the dead to have no conscious existence, be brought back to consciousness still being called dead, and then cast back after judgment to cessation of consciousness.

 

[Lysimachus]

It is a moot point where something is not mentioned, if it is mentioned sufficiently elsewhere in scripture. I cannot think of any doctrinal statement that you can find from every writer in the Bible.

Gehenna corresponds to lake of fire mentioned in the Book of Revelation, it would be in the future, Christ mentioned everlasting punishment and anguish, so thatis what it will be, Hades corresponds to Sheol, it is the place of the dead that depart from this world, immediately after death prior to the judgment for which those who did not come to redemption in Christ, who after that will be cast to the fiery Gehenna. It woould make no sense for Christ to portray these things if it were not to be that way, and would make no sense for the dead to have no conscious existence, be brought back to consciousness still being called dead, and then cast back after judgment to cessation of consciousness.

It actually makes no sense whatsoever for the dead to have any consciousness. It makes no sense whatsoever for the soul to split off from the body at death, go flying into hell, only to be resurrected at the Second Resurrection at the end of the Millennium in bodily form, only to get thrown right back into hell-fire at the end of the world in bodily form this time in the Lake of Fire, for their body to get consumed, and once again, their soul continue in hell-fire.

Fred, give up this doctrine. GIVE IT UP! PLEASE!

Wow, what is it going to take for you guys to realize that Satan has you guys deceived concerning that the dead have any feeling, thought, or consciousness?? What??

"And as it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, but after this the judgment" (Heb 9:27)

And when is this judgment?

It is the Great White Throne Judgment after the Millennium.

It is unfair to punish people in conscious form prior to the trial. They must be tried and the sentence of judgment must pass before the onlooking universe before they can be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

When a person dies, they die. The time between death, and the time of the resurrection feels like a split second. "open eyes, close eyes"

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

It actually makes no sense whatsoever for the dead to have any consciousness. It makes no sense whatsoever for the soul to split off from the body at death, go flying into hell, only to be resurrected at the Second Resurrection at the end of the Millennium in bodily form, only to get thrown right back into hell-fire at the end of the world in bodily form this time in the Lake of Fire, for their body to get consumed, and once again, their soul continue in hell-fire.

Fred, give up this doctrine. GIVE IT UP! PLEASE!

Wow, what is it going to take for you guys to realize that Satan has you guys deceived concerning that the dead have any feeling, thought, or consciousness?? What??

"And as it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, but after this the judgment" (Heb 9:27)

And when is this judgment?

It is the Great White Throne Judgment after the Millennium.

It is unfair to punish people in conscious form prior to the trial. They must be tried and the sentence of judgment must pass before the onlooking universe before they can be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

When a person dies, they die. The time between death, and the time of the resurrection feels like a split second. "open eyes, close eyes"

Ummm, the non-Christian Jews do not read the NT book of Revelation, much less the Christian New Testament

However, one can learn more about what the religion of Judaism teaches concerning the afterlife [tho I am sure they only refer back to the OT/OC of the Bible]

Do Jews Believe in an Afterlife? - Life & Death

There isn't anything after life, because life never ends. It just goes higher and higher. The soul is liberated from the body and returns closer to her source than ever before.

Do Jews believe in an after life? - life cycle death afterlife philosophy

The belief in an eternal life is one of the basic teachings of Judaism. As a matter of fact, Maimonides (a foremost Jewish philosopher and expert of Jewish Law) included this belief in his Thirteen Principles of Jewish Faith.
The Jewish soul is "G-dly," meaning it is invested with an infinite quality that is not subjected to the limitations of time and space, just as G-d Himself is. According to Jewish belief, it is only the body that dies, while the soul lives on into eternity.
Where does the soul go after death? This question implies travel and movement, which only exist in this physical universe. So, the soul "goes," if that can be said at all, to a "place"--a state of existence--that is completely drenched in Divine Radiance, unlike our current existence. Here, G-dliness is hidden. There, G-dliness is manifest. In Judaism, this place is called the World to Come, while life on Planet Earth is referred to as "This World." After death, then, the soul goes to the World to Come.

 

[Lysimachus]

“For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.” ~ Job 19:25-27

Notice. Job will not see God before he is in his flesh! Seeing God only comes “in the latter day”! at the resurrection!

“in this manner”, “we shall always be with the Lord” (1 Thess 4)

"Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." Psalm 146:4

“For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun…. Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.” Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10

"There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.", Ecclesiastes 9:10

"The grave cannot praise Thee, death cannot celebrate Thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for Thy truth. The living, the living, he shall praise Thee, as I do this day." Isaiah 38:18, 19

"In death there is no remembrance of Thee: in the grave who shall give Thee thanks?" Psalms 6:5

"The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence." Psalms15:17

“Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.” “For David is not ascended into the heavens.” Acts 2:29, 34

"If the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: and if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished." I Corinthians 15:16-18. -- If for four thousand years the righteous had gone directly to heaven at death, how could Paul have said that if there is no resurrection, "they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished"? No resurrection would be necessary.

“Behold, I come quickly; and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:12

It is QUITE clear that the righteous or the wicked are NOT “rewarded at death”. The “reward” (eternal life or death) is given when? At his “coming”. Christ BRINGS his reward WITH HIM! To conclude otherwise is to conclude that the righteous and wicked are rewarded at death, not the Second Coming.

“Thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created.” (Psalms 104:29, 30).

“For the grave cannot praise thee, death cannot celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I to this day.” (Isaiah 38:18,19)

“The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.” (Psalms 115:17).

“For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?” (Psalms 6:5)

 

[Timothew]

"So far as we can tell from Scripture, the present hell, Hades, is somewhere in the heart of the earth itself. It is also called "the pit" (Isa. 14:9, 15: Ezek. 32:18-21) and "the abyss" (Rev. 9:2). . . the Biblical descriptions are quite matter of fact. The writers certainly themselves believed hell to be real and geographically &#8216;beneath&#8217; the earth&#8217;s surface. . .
To say this is not scientific is to assume science knows much more about the earth&#8217;s interior than is actually the case. The great &#8216;pit&#8217; [hell] would only need to be about 100 miles or less in diameter to contain, with much room to spare, all the forty billion or so people who have ever lived, assuming their "spiritual" bodies are the same size as their physical bodies."
(Henry M. Morris, The Bible Has the Answer, p. 220)

Here's the link to the proof: http://www.av1611.org/hell_proof.html
​

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT

Closing this thread for review. Please note the Statement of Faith for CF has this at the bottom:
​

Discussions about Nicene and Trinitarian beliefs may take place in the Christian-Only forums, all discussions regarding non-Nicene and non-Trinitarian topics will take place in Unorthodox Theology. Those topics include (but are not limited to)
&#9679; Universalism
&#9679; Open Theism
&#9679; Full Preterism
&#9679; Trinitarianism
&#9679; Annihilationism
&#9679; Masonry
&#9679; discussions related to unorthodox Christian religions

​

 

[D'Ann]

MOD HAT ON

It was decided by staff consensus to move this thread to Unorthodox Theology due to the topic leaning towards Annihilationism.

Please click HERE if or when you would like to be moved back to the General Theology forum(s).

Thank you and God bless

MOD HAT OFF

 

[Timothew]

I'm done. I'm out. Moving this thread to unorthodox is the final straw. Know that the wages of sin is death, not eternal torture in hell. Nobody wants to know the truth anyway.

 

[LutheranMafia]

I have never heard of annilihilationism before. I looked it up on wikipedia and found a very long entry. This part stuck out to me:

Psalm 92:7 ...................shall be "destroyed" forever....
Psalm 1: 6 ....................be the way of the ungodly shall "perish"
Matthew 10:28 ..............rather fear him which is able to "destroy" both soul and body in hell
John 3:16 .....................whosoever believeth in him should not perish (Greek: destroyed)
Romans 6:23 ................For the wages of sin is "death"&#8230;
James 4:12 ....................There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to "destroy"
Philippians 3:19 .............Whose end is "destruction"
2 Thessalonians 1:9 ........Who shall be punished with everlasting "destruction"
Hebrews 10:39 ...............But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition (Greek: destruction); but of them that believe to the saving of the soul
Revelation 20:14 ..............This is the second death.

 

[Timothew]

Here are the scriptures I posted on another thread which refute the doctrine of eternal torment.
Matt 7:13

Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

​

This says destruction, not eternal torment.

Matthew 10:28

Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

​

Body and Soul will be destroyed in hell. Not burned alive forever in hell.

Matthew 13:30

First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up,
​

The greek word that is used is katakausai, which comes from katakaio, and it means to consume by burning, burn down. The tares are gone after they burned. The meaning is the same as in the last 2 verses, that the wicked will be destroyed. As Jesus says in verse 40,

So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
​

Just as the tares are destroyed by burning, the wicked people will be destroyed by burning, at the end of the age.

Luke 13:3

I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
​

Here, the greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which comes from the word apollumi, and means "to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish. Apoleisthe is the future tense form of apollumi which means will be utterly destroyed or will be killed.
What apoleisthe does not mean is "will be tortured alive forever."

Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those in the days of Noah (Matthew 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all" (not tortured).
and it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29) "destroyed them" (not tortured).

John 3:16

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

​

So either a person receives eternal life, or they perish. They die. They are not burned alive forever, they just perish.


John 8:21

Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."
​

Jesus said they would die in their sin, not be burned alive forever.

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
​

Note: Death, not eternal torment.

1 Corinthians 3:17

If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
​

Destroy, not torture alive forever.

Galations 6:8

For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
​

phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish.

The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.

2 Thessalonians 1:9

These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
​

Destruction, not eternal living torment. The greek word is olethron: destruction.
From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.

Hebrews 10:26-27,

For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES
​

Here it says the fire consumes the adversaries. They are burned up, not eternally alive and burning, but consumed.

Hebrews 10:39

But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

​

James 1:15b

and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
​

Death, not eternal torture.

James 4:12a

There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;
​

Destroy, not eternally torture.

2 Peter 2:1

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
​

Destruction, not eternal torment.

2 Peter 3:7-9

But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

​

Peter tells what will happent to ungodly men, they will be judged and then destroyed. All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.

1 John 5:12

He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
​

How can those without life be living forever in a lake of fire?

Jude 5

Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

​

Jude 10

But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.
​

Revelation 2:11b

He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
​

The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.

Revelation 17:8

The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.

​

Revelation 18:8

For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.
​

The greek word katakauthesetai comes from katakaio and means utterly burnt up, destroyed, not eternally burned alive. (The greek is future passive indicative tense, therefore it is the word katakauthesetai).

Revelation 20:14-15

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
​

John interprets this for us, the lake of fire is the second death. If anyones name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death. It is not eternal living torment.

Revelation 21:8

“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
​

They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead.

(all scriptures are NASB, definitions are Strong's or Liddell-Scott)

So as you can see it is actually the eternal torture hell mongers who are unorthodox.

 

[Timothew]

53 passages in order proving that eternal life is only available to those who receive it by faith in Jesus Christ.

Matthew 7:14 How narrow is the gate, and restricted is the way that leads to life! Few are those who find it.
Matthew 18:8 If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off, and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life maimed or crippled, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into the eternal fire.
Matthew 18:9 If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out, and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into the Gehenna of fire.
Matthew 19:16 Behold, one came to him and said, "Good teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?"
Matthew 19:17 He said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but one, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."
Matthew 19:29 Everyone who has left houses, or brothers, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, will receive one hundred times, and will inherit eternal life.
Matthew 25:46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Mark 9:43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having your two hands to go into Gehenna, into the unquenchable fire,
Mark 9:45 If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life lame, rather than having your two feet to be cast into Gehenna, into the fire that will never be quenched
Mark 10:17 As he was going out into the way, one ran to him, knelt before him, and asked him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?"
Mark 10:30 but he will receive one hundred times more now in this time, houses, brothers, sisters, mothers, children, and land, with persecutions; and in the age to come eternal life.
Luke 10:25 Behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
Luke 18:18 A certain ruler asked him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
Luke 18:30 who will not receive many times more in this time, and in the world to come, eternal life."
John 3:15 that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:36 One who believes in the Son has eternal life, but one who disobeys the Son won't see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."
John 4:14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never thirst again; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life."
John 4:36 He who reaps receives wages, and gathers fruit to eternal life; that both he who sows and he who reaps may rejoice together.
John 5:24 "Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn't come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 5:26 For as the Father has life in himself, even so he gave to the Son also to have life in himself.
John 5:39 "You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and these are they which testify about me.
John 5:40 Yet you will not come to me, that you may have life.
John 6:27 Don't work for the food which perishes, but for the food which remains to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For God the Father has sealed him."
John 6:33 For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world."
John 6:40 This is the will of the one who sent me, that everyone who sees the Son, and believes in him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
John 6:47 Most certainly, I tell you, he who believes in me has eternal life.
John 6:53 Jesus therefore said to them, "Most certainly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you don't have life in yourselves.
John 6:54 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 10:10 The thief only comes to steal, kill, and destroy. I came that they may have life, and may have it abundantly.
John 10:28 I give eternal life to them. They will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
John 12:25 He who loves his life will lose it. He who hates his life in this world will keep it to eternal life.
John 17:2 even as you gave him authority over all flesh, he will give eternal life to all whom you have given him.
John 20:31 but these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.
Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life!"
Acts 13:48 As the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God. As many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
Acts 17:25 neither is he served by men's hands, as though he needed anything, seeing he himself gives to all life and breath, and all things.
Noun: Accusative Singular Feminine
Romans 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory, honor, and incorruptibility, eternal life;
Romans 5:21 that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 6:22 But now, being made free from sin, and having become servants of God, you have your fruit of sanctification, and the result of eternal life.
Romans 7:10 The commandment, which was for life, this I found to be for death;
2 Corinthians 2:16 to the one a stench from death to death; to the other a sweet aroma from life to life. Who is sufficient for these things?
Galatians 6:8 For he who sows to the Spirit reaps eternal life.
1 Timothy 1:16 However, for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first, Jesus Christ might display all his patience, for an example of those who were going to believe in him for eternal life.
2 Timothy 1:10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the Good News.
1 John 2:25 This is the promise which he promised us, the eternal life.
1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. He who doesn't love his brother remains in death.
1 John 3:15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life remaining in him.
1 John 5:11 The testimony is this, that God gave to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1 John 5:12 He who has the Son has the life. He who doesn't have God's Son doesn't have the life.
1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
1 John 5:16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life for those who sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death. I don't say that he should make a request concerning this.
Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.

So As You can see it is actually those who agree with the devil who say you will not surely die, but you will have eternal life no matter what who are unorthodox.

 

[ghendricks63]

Well this thread certainly turned into a simple [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]ing match didn't it?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I'm done. I'm out. Moving this thread to unorthodox is the final straw. Know that the wages of sin is death, not eternal torture in hell. Nobody wants to know the truth anyway.

They did the same thing with my Matthew 24 thread

http://www.christianforums.com/t7392923-43/#post52748967
How much of Matthew 24 is fulfilled

I am moving this to Unorthodox Theology. Since the OP voted for a full preterist position, and that is not allowed in GT, it will be moved as to not generate any reports of Statement of Faith, and rules, violations. Thank you for your support.​

 

[Timothew]

I couldn't shout any louder.
When the truth is called unorthodox lies, and lies are called orthodox truth something is very wrong.

 

[Soulgazer]

Truth stopped being a mainstay for Christianity a long, long time ago my friend.

 

[Timothew]

Truth stopped being a mainstay for Christianity a long, long time ago my friend.

Let's bring it back for Christ's Sake.

 

[ghendricks63]

Truth stopped being a mainstay for Christianity a long, long time ago my friend.

There once was a time in my life when I would have been deeply offended by such a comment. All I can say now is keep up the good fight. I am one former radical fundamentalist who finally saw the truth.

 

[Lysimachus]

LuthernMafia,

While it is uncertain what Martin Luther thought of hell-fire (but seemed to lead to the Traditionalist view), did you know that he believed that when you die, your next conscious thought is the resurrection?

Notice Luther's sentiments on the state of the dead:

Martin Luther wrote the following:

"For just as one who falls asleep and reaches morning unexpectedly when he awakes, without knowing what has happened to him, so we shall suddenly rise on the last day without knowing how we have come into death and through death.' 'We shall sleep, until He comes and knocks on the little grave and says, Doctor Martin, get up! Then I shall rise in a moment and be happy with Him forever." (Leroy Froom, Conditionalist Faith of Our Fathers 2:74, 75)​

Commenting on Ecclesiastes 9:10, Luther wrote:

"Another place proving that the dead have no . . . feeling. There is, saith he, no duty, no science, no knowledge, no wisdom there. Solomon judgeth that the dead are asleep, and feel nothing at all. For the dead lie there, accounting neither days nor years, but when they are awaked, they shall seem to have slept scarce one minute."-- Martin Luther, Exposition of Solomon's Booke Called Ecclesiastes, page 152. (Martin Luther, 1493-1546, Great Reformer and founder of the Lutheran church.)​

Quite strong was the following by Luther:

"But I permit the Pope to make articles of faith for himself and his faithful, such as [1] The Bread and wine are transubstantiated in the sacrament. {2} The essence of God neither generated, nor is generated. [3] The soul is the substantial form of the human body. [4] The Pope is the emperor of the world, and the king of heaven, and God upon earth. [5] THE SOUL IS IMMORTAL, with all those monstrous opinions to be found in the Roman dunghill of decretals. . . ." (Ibid)​

Said E. Patavel concerning Luther's comment:

"The theory of the immortality of the soul was one of those false doctrines that Rome, borrowing from paganism, incorporated into the religion of Christendom. Martin Luther classed it with the "monstrous fables that form part of the Roman dunghill of decretals."--E. Petavel, The Problem of Immortality, page 255.​

Tyndale supported Luther's revived teaching of the conditional immortality of the soul and this put him into perilous conflict with the Church of Rome.

William Tyndale wrote:

"And ye, putting them [departed souls] in heaven, hell, and purgatory, destroy the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul prove the resurrection."

....

"The true faith setteth forth the ressurrection... the heathen philosophers, denying that, did set forth that souls did for ever live. And the pope joineth the spiritual doctrine of Christ with the fleshly doctrine of philosophers together; things so contrary that they cannot agree, no more than the spirit and the flesh do in a Christian man. And because the fleshly minded pope consenteth unto heathen doctrine, therefore he corrupteth the scripture to stablish it." - An answer to sir Thomas More's dialog - 1850 reprint (William Tyndale, 1484-1536, translated the Bible into English and died a martyr.)​

To break it down, the doctrine of natural immortality is a doctrine of pagan spiritualism. It is a spurious teaching, including that of eternal torment and purgatory. The Church Fathers, especially Tertullian, CONSTANTLY appealed to Plato for wisdom concerning the estate of the soul. According to Froom, "it was Tertullian who first affirmed that torments of the lost will be co-equal and co-exist with the happiness of the saved." (Conditionalist Faith of Our Fathers., vol. 1, p. 950.) Tertullian's propositions needed other modifications: "He [Tertullian] confessedly altered the sense of Scripture and the meaning of words, so as to interpret 'death' as eternal misery and 'destruction' and 'consume' as pain and anguish. 'Hell' became perpetually dying, but never dead" (Ibid., vol. 1, p. 951). Without hesitation, Tertullian referred directly to Plato (a Greek philosopher) in his writings. Plato's primary theme, "every soul is immortal," became Tertullian's unwavering platform (Tertullian, On the Resurrection, chap.3, quoted in ANF, vol.3, p. 547). These church fathers followed suit by including Tertullian's propositions in their public preaching and writing: Minucius Felix, Cyprian of Carthage, Ambrose of Milan, John Chryosostom and Jerome (translator of the Bible into the Latin Vulgate).

Remember, Plato was not a Christian. He was a Greek philosopher that believed PLANTS had pre-existing souls, as well as all other living matter. Mormons inherited these pagan ideas, just like most of Christian inherited the doctrines of Eternal Torment and the Immortality of the Soul. Most people do not realize it, but these doctrines are the doorways to spiritualism--and to subscribe to such teachings will leave way for Satan to deceive the masses by resurrecting dead relatives who come back and work miracles, but are actually demons in disguise.

From what I gather, although Dr. Luther did not believe in the immortality of the soul, he did believe the wicked burn for eternity. However, there are statements that support annihilationism in the 2nd and 3rd century from such as The Didache, The Epistle of Barnabas, Clement of Rome, Justin Martyr, Tatian, mixed views from Athenagoras, Irenaeus, Theophilus, Aheophilus of Antioch, and we also have later men in the 17th century such as John Milton, John Locke, the General Baptist Confession, the Socinians in Poland, and later in the 18th century you have Isaac Watts who admits he cannot defend his traditional view of hell from scripture, then you also had Isaac Newton, Samuel Clarke, and William Whiston who questioned the traditionalist view, and then in the 19th century you have the Advent Christian Church, The Church of God, The Seventh-Day Adventist Church, and of course a HOST of notable Conditionalist authors that are non-SDA.

Notice what Edward W. Fudge has to say about Annihilationism, who is, I believe, a Baptist evangelical. He is not SDA:

YouTube - The Fire That Consumes 1 of 9

You can find the rest of the parts (2-9) in youtube.

 

[FredVB]

It actually makes no sense whatsoever for the dead to have any consciousness. It makes no sense whatsoever for the soul to split off from the body at death, go flying into hell, only to be resurrected at the Second Resurrection at the end of the Millennium in bodily form, only to get thrown right back into hell-fire at the end of the world in bodily form this time in the Lake of Fire, for their body to get consumed, and once again, their soul continue in hell-fire.

Fred, give up this doctrine. GIVE IT UP! PLEASE!

Wow, what is it going to take for you guys to realize that Satan has you guys deceived concerning that the dead have any feeling, thought, or consciousness?? What??

"And as it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, but after this the judgment" (Heb 9:27)
And when is this judgment?
It is the Great White Throne Judgment after the Millennium.
It is unfair to punish people in conscious form prior to the trial. They must be tried and the sentence of judgment must pass before the onlooking universe before they can be thrown into the Lake of Fire.
When a person dies, they die. The time between death, and the time of the resurrection feels like a split second. "open eyes, close eyes"

I understand this kind of frustration, I have been saying things with scripture that fully supports my position, which is than said to be Satan's deception!? while it is ignored or destracted from in responses.
I get my basis from the Bible which I seem to always have to show again even in the same thread. The phrases of perishing and destruction mean relative to what we are and to what God meant for us. It is a corruption. To say these mean annihilation contradicts other scripture which it would not need to do. Here are Bible scriptures, again, that show the reality of coming judgment which would endure.

Matthew 25:
30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world’ 41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

The punishment is everlasting. Cessation of consciousness is not everlasting punishment, punishment is only so while there is awareness.

Luke 13:
27 He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’ 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out. 29 They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God.

We are told there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. There will be anguish from the judgment that is to come.

And then Revelation 20:
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

The dead called so by the Bible stand before God and are judged, and receive the sentence, which Christ prophesied. They are cast to the lake of fire where they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Nothing says they will be consumed. This is a level of punishment not experienced by them while waiting in the realm of the dead prior to the judgment. Death in the Bible does not mean cessation of consciousness regardless of fallen men of old testament understanding being quoted with that kind of perspective, which is limited to this world, "under the sun". There are indeed more passages that speak of this consciousness further. The new testament makes it clear.