Thank you
beloved57 for clarifying.
Yes, it does look like you and I have much in common concerning eschatology and the Second Coming.
Upon careful analysis, our little clash was an inevitable result that I do not believe in the immortality of the soul. I believe that the dead are dead, and their next conscious thought is the resurrection.
Whether someone goes to heaven immediately at death, or whether they are resurrected at the Second Time, matters not to the individual itself. Because to a dead person, there is no consciousness of time. For example, I believe that if a saint were to die today, and Christ were to come tomorrow, the time between death and the resurrection would feel no different for a saint who died, say, 4,000 years ago.
It's like "blinking your eyes"...close eyes, open eyes! So to a dead person, the very next thing is to be "present with the Lord". As there is no consciousness of time in death. So although in reality, they are sleeping in their graves, to the dead person, it matters not, as it feels to them as if the resurrection is the
very next thing.
I have written much on the state of the dead, and I believe that the Bible is clear that all saints (except for special OT saints) that have ever died, are sleeping in their graves. I have not found a trace of evidence in support of the doctrine of the immortality of the soul. Not even Martin Luther or William Tyndale believed it.
Allow me to kindly explain to you my interpretation of the texts you cited in Hebrews:
lysi:
I think as stated already that we agree more so than disagree. However back to these who resurrected in Matt 27. Yes they may have temporarily been in bodies for that specific purpose of showing themselves, but, I believe once in heaven they became Just bodiless Spirits as described here Heb 12:
23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
The allusion to "the spirits of just men made perfect" in no way is implying that these spirits are "conscientious" in any form. Scriptures allude to the judgment of the living and the dead in places like Acts 10:42; 2 Tim 4:1; Hebrews 9:27. Hebrews 12:23 is in perfectly alignment with this.
The spirits, however, that went back to God, only went back to God in a sense of "going on record" for the judgment. But they have no consciousness whatsoever. It is simply an allusion to conceptualize the fact that their names are written in the book of lie. The moment a person dies, they cease to exist, and their spirit "life" goes back to God who gave it.
Scriptures teach that the spirits of all men go back to God,
including the wicked.
"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." (Ecc 12:7)
There are 2 important things to note concerning this passage:
1. This is in reference to the spirits of all men, including the wicked. Are we to conclude that wicked people are in heaven?
2. The fact that the spirit returns to God who gave it at death, proves that God had that "spirit" (or life)
before. Are we to conclude that Adam was in heaven in spirit form trekking through space, until one day God decided to breathe Adam into a body, trapping him?
I believe these notions are too ridiculous to be entertained. The Greek and Hebrew words for "spirit" can be translated to simply mean "breath" or "life". The spirits that have been made perfect in heaven simply mean that God has their names written in the book of life so that they will come up in the resurrection.
Now I'm going to provide you some irrefutable proof that the spirits of wicked people are in heaven too:
Beginning with Ecclesiastes 3:16-18, we see that the subject is concerning the righteous AND the wicked. So I recommend opening your Bible and reading these preceding texts before we continue below with verses 19-21:
"For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth UPWARD, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?" (Ecclesiastes 3:19-21)
We see that the spirits of every man go upward, EVEN in the Old Testament! But the spirits of animals go "downward".
What does this mean? It is metaphorical language to represent the fact that animals have no salvation, and their is no record for the soul of an animal. But at death of a man, their lives go on record to be held in the judgment. This is because every single person who has died will come up in either the first resurrection (Second Coming), or the second resurrection to face the "second death".
So the metaphorical language of "spirit" does not mean, in any way shape or form, that they are conscientious floating entities who can think, see, and move around. No. That "spirit" is God's again. It is creation
in reverse. The "life" (spirit) is now God's, and it will not come back into conscientious existence until He breathes that computer program right back into a functioning brain.
That is how God made us. In HIS image.
Its God's design that all the Church of God, OT and NT be all Glorified together Heb 11:
39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40God having provided some better thing for us, that they[OT Saints] without us[NT Saints] should not be made perfect.
Now let me comment on vs heb 12 23 further, it does say there Just men made perfect, but that pertains only to their state now in heaven as opposed to still being in the flesh. So in a sense those now in heaven are in a perfect state at home with the Lord, but they still must wait the redemption of their bodies at the resurrection and Second Coming..
I believe these spirits made perfect simply means that they died in Christ, and will be resurrected in the Lord to be caught up in the clouds of heaven. They have been judged, their lives are retained in the book of life. But as I have shown, even the spirits of wicked men go up to heaven. And we know certainly that wicked people are not enjoying heaven, lol.
So what Christians need to do is reprogram their minds in how they are interpreting this "spirit" thing concerning heaven.