Dave Hunt's explanation

[Goodbook]

I understand there are different positions on the rapture, this book I am reading expounds the pre-trib view.

It is by David Hunt and called 'when will Jesus come' (short answer..don't know exactly, but could be any minute) it talked about the Rapture and the Second Coming, as two separate events. It was laid out things very clearly, and actually is quite convincing, but I still had some questions.

For those that believe in Jesus, we will, according the David Hunt's reading of the Bible be raptured to meet him in the air and taken to heaven for 7 years, and then it is implied we then will return with Him to Israel in the battle of armageddon as an army to rescue Israel from the great tribulation and then be judged. After that we will reign with Him for 1000 years.

Question - will messianic Jews be raptured with the church as well?
Would that mean any Jews left to be saved will only be saved if they obey the Mosaic Law and then recoginise Jesus as their Messiah when he bodily returns? Or they have to believe when the two witnesses preach to them?

Another thing with the rapture thats not often mentioned whenver I read about it is, christians and non-christians under the age of 12 will mysteriously disappear to unbelievers, but what about those in their graves rising from the dead? Will nobody see this?
Would we be just watching from heaven while all that is written in Revelation be played out before our eyes?

He doesn't mention the 144,000, or anything about Jesus exhorting us to spread the gospel to all nations. Nor does he mention the plight of Palestinians, (he calls them muslim hordes) or what exactly is going to happen after everything is complete.
Another thing questionable is his insistence that the Roman Empire is revived according to Daniel, with the ten kings reigning. But we shouldn't worry about this because we are going to be raptured before all these events take place. If God is going to give the Israelites back the promised land, where will us church people live? Will it be, that Israel/Jerusalem will be the Kingdom of the new heaven and earth..there will be no more countries as such..and everyone will be speaking a heavenly language or hebrew?

I found some of it convincing but I think he left parts out. Has anybody read this book? What are your views? Hunt does counter the other views with scripture, so it's all very biblical, however I find some parts of it speculative.

 

[NightHawkeye]

He doesn't mention the 144,000, or anything about Jesus exhorting us to spread the gospel to all nations. Nor does he mention the plight of Palestinians, (he calls them muslim hordes) or what exactly is going to happen after everything is complete.
Another thing questionable is his insistence that the Roman Empire is revived according to Daniel, with the ten kings reigning. But we shouldn't worry about this because we are going to be raptured before all these events take place. If God is going to give the Israelites back the promised land, where will us church people live? Will it be, that Israel/Jerusalem will be the Kingdom of the new heaven and earth..there will be no more countries as such..and everyone will be speaking a heavenly language or hebrew?

I found some of it convincing but I think he left parts out. Has anybody read this book? What are your views? Hunt does counter the other views with scripture, so it's all very biblical, however I find some parts of it speculative.

Thanks for providing a "critical" review, Goodbook. What's not said is often as telling as what is said.


.

 

[Goodbook]

sorry I mean 3 1/2 years, then armageddon, in which we will rescue the elect (the 144,000?) and that will take another 3 1/2 years, and then judgment day before the new heaven and earth. That is my understanding of it, the end-times being 7 years long.

I'm not sure I understand the 70 weeks in Daniel and the cut of date properly with the gap between Jesus first coming and Jesus second coming more like a preparation time for us gentiles to believe and be the church so that all of Israel will be saved. As far as I know Jews in the past have not really liked Christians but only those of us they call 'righteous gentiles' when we rescued them from persecution and hosted them when they were exiled. I'm not sure if this means all the nations that ever hosted the Jews in exile will be blessed and all those that persecuted them will be cursed and thus blotted out and not given a chance to hear the true gospel.

I think that is what is meant by spreading the gospel to all nations..that the nations must recognise Jerusalem will be the site of the everlasting kingdom and that Jesus will be the King of kings, and that is why the temple is going to be rebuilt (by the Jews) not so there will be sacrifices there but it will be a house of prayer where Jesus himself will be on the throne.

According to Dave Hunt, before that happens there will be an anti-christ the world will worship, he might set up sacrifices in the temple and encourage a world peace that is really a delusion, and get people to take 'the mark' But we will not be around to see that happen as we will be raptured to heaven.

 

[Truth Files]

Response to the OP:

Briefly ....

I have read Hunt's books

Hunt has some truth, but not all correct in my opinion

He is correct regarding the Lord's intent to immortalize today's church just before His coming wrath of the tribulation period

I do not believe he is correct regarding a revived Roman Empire based in Europe .... the "anti-christ's" kingdom will be primarily a Middle Eastern Islamic kingdom [Psalms 83; Ezekiel 36; 38; Daniel7:7-25; 8:9-12; 8:23-25; 11:36-45; 12:7; Joel 2; 3; Micah 5:5-6]

The current unrest among the Islamic states is setting up for the formation of his confederation of the Middle East .... he will rise among them

The pre-tribulation "rapture" will go mostly unnoticed by the world since there will be few living believers at the time ..... most will be those asleep in death and no one on the earth will see this changing .... the very next and sudden destruction of the tribulation period will catch the world off guard and where all will be subjected to an unprecedented time of confusion, vexation, deception, and death [Matthew 24:36-39; Luke 21:35; 1Thessalonians 5:1-9; Revelation 6:12-17]

The pre-tribulation church and those who become believers during the tribulation will be immortalized and will rule with the Lord over His millennial kingdom of mortals just after the tribulation is over, and for 1000 years ..... and beyond [Revelation 20:4]

His millennial kingdom on the earth will be centered in Israel and Jerusalem will be will be the capital [Joel 3; Micah 4; 5; Zechariah 14]

The 144000 will be a believing remnant portion of Israel [not the church] who will carry the gospel to Israel and the nations during the tribulation period [Matthew 24:14; Revelation 14:1-7]

The coming time of the Lord's hour [time of trial and judgment .... Revelation 3:10; 6:12-17] is the same as the 70th week decreed for Israel ..... many of the nation will turn and accept Jesus Christ as Messiah and king during the period [Daniel 9]

 

[Charles Spurgeon]

*Sigh*

I respect Dave Hunt and those who believe in a Pre-trib rapture, but time and time again, the rapture is at the end.

To the OP see my thread regarding Revelation 3:10... this will also help.

Also, take note of Matthew 24:29-31 and don't take notes from the majority of the people that state this is something else. This is conclusive proof of a post-tribulation rapture, but no one wants to believe it.

Also, beware of the people that state only some people will go through the pre-trib rapture while the quote, unquote "carnal" believers are left behind. This is another error based on a false understanding of the Matthew passages that follow Matthew 24:31. See: Will there be a partial rapture? (again, I don't support a pre-trib rapture).


This website seems to explain and prove the post-trib rapture well enough: Pre-Tribulation or Post-Tribulation Rapture?

 

[Goodbook]

truthfiles..

I do not believe he is correct regarding a revives Roman Empire based in Europe .... the "anti-christ's" kingdom will be primarily a Middle Eastern Islamic kingdom

I agree with this as well..as far as I know the Kings mean Kings and as most of the monarchies in Europe are no longer this can't really be possible..I don't know all the facts about Islam's origins but I do believe it came after the Roman empire, splitting in two (RCC and eastern orthodox) Hunt seems to gloss over this..

I don't understand..are you suggesting most believers would have died..and at the timeof the end the world would be so bad that believers would be few and unable to survive? But even BEFORE the tribulation? Is this because of apostasy, those that call themselves christians will make it hard for true christians to survive?

If so..what is the tribulation really for? Why are christians then warned about it if we aren't going to be around it when it happens? Is it just part of the bible in which we tell unbelievers haha this will happen to you because you don't believe but God says it will happen. How would unbelievers ever know anything if there are no christians around to demonstrate that God's word is true..will it just be that they will have to find out for themselves by reading the Bible and seeing that what comes to pass ..and according to Hunt the holy Spirit will be removed..so even if the unbelievers repented would it mean they won't be able to recieve Jesus as their saviour?

I have not read 'Left Behind' series but Hunt's book does contain some speculations that sound like it comes from this novel..however having said that it is not a bad book it just gets me thinking..

 

[son_flower]

Hi Goodbook

Just take if from Jesus:

Mtt24:29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

No secret 3rd coming.

Daniels 70 weeks are confusing you because Jesus fulfilled that at the cross.

Acts14:22Confirming the souls of the disciples, [and] exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Mt24;13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

 

[Truth Files]

GB,

The two iron legs of the image in Daniel's vision are not the ancient Roman Empire, but are a division of the current Middle Eastern Islamic setting .... Shiite and Sunni

The "antichrist" will be of the Shiite north and he will subdue the other and ultimately confederate both into his divided kingdom of iron and clay

There are many who profess christianity today, but few who are actual believers .... this apostacy will only get worse as time goes on ..... so there will not be many believers on the earth at the time of the Lord's 'harpazo" action to immortalize His church .... the majority will be those asleep of the past

The Lord's tribulation period will be for punishing an unbelieving world [including those who profess to be christians and are not .... Revelation 3:15-19] who has refused to believe the truth about Him ..... and also to pressure Israel for turning to Him .... a remnant part of the nation will do this during the period [same as the 70th week decreed .... Daniel 9]

The Lord's holy spirit will not be removed during the coming tribulation period as Hunt suggests .... but restraint against Satan will be removed

There will be no believers on the earth at the beginning of the tribulation period .... but the Lord will visit the first believers [first fruits] and these will spread His gospel during the period [Revelation 7:1-8; 14:1-7]..... some will turn and repent, but not many ..... most humans will not and they will be killed and lost forever [Revelation 9:20-21]

Continue your study and stick to the scriptures

 

[zeke73]

Hi Goodbook

Just take if from Jesus:

Mtt24:29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

No secret 3rd coming.

Daniels 70 weeks are confusing you because Jesus fulfilled that at the cross.

Acts14:22Confirming the souls of the disciples, [and] exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Mt24;13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

That means that tribulation and wrath aren't the same thing.
1 Thess 5:9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

[Goodbook]

hmm good points..I am not sure about Dave Hunt, he calls himself a Berean ..I suppose his book is interesting if you want to know what lots of churches are teaching these days on the end-times..but I am finding problems with his arguments, even though a lot of what he says is quite convincing. But the convincing things are actually not really to do with the subject of the 'rapture' itself but other topics.

He is tries to convince people that Jesus will come 'when we least expect it'.

now I am looking at chapter 13 of this book (titled the rapture) and this is very interesting..the scriptures he is quoting..he OMITS words in between, to try and fit his argument that this rapture is 'secret' and will come upon people unawares.

John 14:2,3 In my Father's house are many mansions...I go to prepare a place for you. And....I will come again and recieve you unto myself: that where I am there ye may be also.

NOTICE HE OMITS 'if it were not so, I would have told you.' also
'If I go and prepare a place for you'

Hunt wants us to believe he Jesus is coming so that we go to be with him, and then COME BACK to earth to fight in armageddon in his 'army from heaven'.
Another alarming thing is he wants people not to think of worldly things and planning for the future such as preparing for retirement, insurance..etc

His other verses
1 thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout...and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

with the ....HE OMITS 'with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God'

1 Corinthians 15:51,42
Behold I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed, in a moment inthe twinking of an eye, at the last trump...the dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed'


He OMITS 'the trumpet shall sound'

Now I am wondering why he is doing this. Throughout the book, it seems he's advocating that christians are these special saved people because we are going to heaven nothing else matters. He doesn't say anything about loving ones neighbour or following Jesus commands or spreading the gospel to people who haven't heard it, including Jews and Arabs.

Here is a quote from his book
'The firm conviction that Christ could come at any moment-and the desire for Him to do so-is surely the secret to victorious and holy living.

Is it?

How about repenting of sin, believing in Jesus and being born again?
Does Dave Hunt rightly divide the word of God? Or does he quote broken scriptures? Jesus says 'scripture cannot be broken'.

I don't know what his motives are but he seems to be selling a lot of books. I borrowed my copy from the library..

 

[NJBeliever]

hmm good points..I am not sure about Dave Hunt, he calls himself a Berean ..I suppose his book is interesting if you want to know what lots of churches are teaching these days on the end-times..but I am finding problems with his arguments, even though a lot of what he says is quite convincing. But the convincing things are actually not really to do with the subject of the 'rapture' itself but other topics.

Dave Hunt is one of the most thorough, devoted biblical scholars of the past generation. Now this does not mean that he is always right or that you have to agree with him, but to say that you're sure if he's actually getting into a Scripture like a Berean is a pretty unfair criticism.

He is tries to convince people that Jesus will come 'when we least expect it'.

Well considering Christ says He comes as a thief in the night, there is Scripture to support that. Whether or not you think that verse refers to the rapture is IRRELEVANT. My point is that Hunt is basing his statements on Scripture. Not guesswork or personal feelings and ideas.

now I am looking at chapter 13 of this book (titled the rapture) and this is very interesting..the scriptures he is quoting..he OMITS words in between, to try and fit his argument that this rapture is 'secret' and will come upon people unawares.

John 14:2,3 In my Father's house are many mansions...I go to prepare a place for you. And....I will come again and recieve you unto myself: that where I am there ye may be also.

NOTICE HE OMITS 'if it were not so, I would have told you.' also
'If I go and prepare a place for you'

Hunt wants us to believe he Jesus is coming so that we go to be with him, and then COME BACK to earth to fight in armageddon in his 'army from heaven'.

Well we know Jesus said that He is indeed going to prepare a place for US, HIS CHURCH. And this place is in Heaven. So if you are a post-trib, when do you get to go to this place?? You don't. In the post-trib model, you go up to the clouds to meet Jesus and come right back down for Armageddon. So you never even see the home Jesus prepared for you. That is obviously contradicting Jesus' word (and the place Jesus is preparing is not the "New Jerusalem" of Rev 21 --as that is not even created until the current Heaven and Earth are dissolved, as any good Berean would know).

Another alarming thing is he wants people not to think of worldly things and planning for the future such as preparing for retirement, insurance..etc

19Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
20But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:



Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.


Again the bible instructs us not to be concerned about retirement packages, 401Ks, etc. Hunt is being Biblical.

21For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

His other verses
1 thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout...and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

with the ....HE OMITS 'with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God'

The elipsis ("...") is an author's way of letting you know that there are more words in the text. That is not an omission, which would be leaving out words and giving no indication that they were ever there.

Now I am wondering why he is doing this. Throughout the book, it seems he's advocating that christians are these special saved people because we are going to heaven nothing else matters. He doesn't say anything about loving ones neighbour or following Jesus commands or spreading the gospel to people who haven't heard it, including Jews and Arabs.

Here is a quote from his book
'The firm conviction that Christ could come at any moment-and the desire for Him to do so-is surely the secret to victorious and holy living.

Is it?

How about repenting of sin, believing in Jesus and being born again?

I believe his point is if you know Jesus is coming for his SAINTS at any moment, you will of course make sure you are saved and live a Godly life, following Christ's commands until His appearance.

I think you have unfairly judged his work. Maybe his book was not clear but he has made many videos, articles and books advocating Biblical salvation, spreading the Gospel and definitely using Scripture to back up his claims.

And before you think I am just being biased, please know that I am NOT pre-trib. I do not agree with the classic pre-trib model. BUt I certainly don't believe in or agree with the completely unbiblical post-trib model either.

Here is an article by Hunt on this very issue and I think he's quite clear on it. It closes with this:

We know not why the Bridegroom tarries, but exactly as He foretold, the church is asleep. In that context, our Lord added: “And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him” (Mat 25:6). May each of us be listening eagerly for that cry of the Holy Spirit in our hearts. Indeed, we ought to be sounding it aloud, for the Lord could come at any moment to take us to Himself. So let us watch and wait and look for Him in eager anticipation—and encourage others to do the same. It will have a purifying and motivating effect in our lives.

Pre- or Post-Trib Rapture? | thebereancall.org

 

[Goodbook]

ok now am confused. If a bible scholar publishes his work, I think it's fair to read it and critique it. That's the whole point of writing, the bible scholar puts forward an argument, and we either agree with it or don't. If we don't agree with it we can say why we think so.

Remember all of us are believers are bible scholars, because we are meant to 'study and show ourselves approved for God' we are not doing anything different than what published bible scholars do but I don't believe in omitting bits of scripture when I'm quoting verses. I think that's manipulative.

The 'thief in the night' as I understand it refers to the fact that judgement day will come unexpectedly to those that do NOT watch or expect him, so they are unprepared.

I do think he is right about the wordly thing and not storing up earthly treasures..but then again I am reminded of the millerites who expected the second coming in the 19th century, sold all their possessions and waited on a hill and when he didn't appear they called it 'the great disappointment'.

I too am not sure about post-trib.

is there some other model that makes sense then? Hunt doesn't say anything specific against mid-trib.