Romans 14:14,15 Did Paul declare all foods clean?

[cyberlizard]

definitions are essential for correct interpretation of the Romans text.


clean foods are those which are permitted according to the Torah

unclean foods are those which are not permitted according to the Torah

common (koinos) foods are those foods which were clean but have become contaminated/polluted in some way.

common foods are not unclean foods. You cannot make an unclean food become clean, but you can make a clean food become common. Unclean foods cannot become common.

in the Romans passage, unclean is not used at all, the word throughout is common (koinos). Unless this frame of reference is held in mind as you come to this text, you'll massacre it.



Steve

 

[Deut 5:29]

definitions are essential for correct interpretation of the Romans text.


clean foods are those which are permitted according to the Torah

unclean foods are those which are not permitted according to the Torah

common (koinos) foods are those foods which were clean but have become contaminated/polluted in some way.

common foods are not unclean foods. You cannot make an unclean food become clean, but you can make a clean food become common. Unclean foods cannot become common.

in the Romans passage, unclean is not used at all, the word throughout is common (koinos). Unless this frame of reference is held in mind as you come to this text, you'll massacre it.

Steve

All good, but if you are worried about definitions, be aware that unclean meats are not food for humans.
In that sense there is no such thing as unclean "food".

 

[Frogster]

where?


Steve

p.s. Mark 7v19 says no such thing according to the Greek.

In Some manuscripts you should say. Why would 2 of the most respected scholars, J.B Lightfoot, and FF Bruce say, that Jesus abrogated the Jewish food laws, in Mark 7:19, if said verse were not "there" in the manuscripts?

 

[Frogster]

definitions are essential for correct interpretation of the Romans text.


clean foods are those which are permitted according to the Torah

unclean foods are those which are not permitted according to the Torah

common (koinos) foods are those foods which were clean but have become contaminated/polluted in some way.

common foods are not unclean foods. You cannot make an unclean food become clean, but you can make a clean food become common. Unclean foods cannot become common.

in the Romans passage, unclean is not used at all, the word throughout is common (koinos). Unless this frame of reference is held in mind as you come to this text, you'll massacre it.



Steve

Here is the strongs, for Rom 14;14.I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean.


unclean
New Testament Greek Definition:
2839 koinos {koy-nos'}
probably from 4862; TDNT - 3:789,447; adj
AV - common 7, unclean 3, defiled 1, unholy 1; 12
1) common
2) common i.e. ordinary, belonging to generality
2a) by the Jews, unhallowed, profane, Levitically unclean






From Barne's.

Hence, the words "common" and "impure" are often used as expressing the same thing. It denotes what was forbidden by the laws of Moses.

 

[Frogster]

The Torah is from God who says He is not a man that He should lie, nor a son of man that He should change His mind.

God said some foods where unclean.

Can God later change His mind?



Steve

p.s. Paul bases all his theological arguments on the authority of the words of Moses, so it is highly unlikely he would contradict him. Jesus also argues for the eternal validity of the Torah.

the real question is, does the Law apply equally to Jew and Gentile?

They were all eating with gentiles, the jews that is, in Antioch, so it was universal.

Read Acts 10, that was from Jesus, no more Torah food laws. In 11;3, it says..Peter ATE with them, after preaching, not to mention he was EATING with Gentiles, as per gal 2;12.

 

[heymikey80]

Mark 7v19 says no such thing according to the Greek.

"Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15 Nothing outside a person can defile them by going into them. Rather, it is what comes out of a person that defiles them. ... Don’t you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? 19 For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.) Mark 7:14-15,18-19

Seems like quite a number of translators, all experts in Greek, say Mark does indeed say such a thing. Plus, Jesus says twice that nothing they're eating defiles a person. That's in direct conflict with Levitical food law.

So arguing over the end of :19 skirts Jesus' direct statement. And reinterpreting :19 will run afoul of the question as to why pork or crab is considered unclean (eating offal would not then make an animal unclean).

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I would say NO, he did not declare all foods clean.

Jesus declared all foods clean.

So would you say Paul was simply agreeing with what Jesus said?

 

[cyberlizard]

if people are actually really interested in the subject of what the text says, they need to put down there English translations and allow themselves to be open minded about the subject.

here is a direct link to the codex sinaiticus with a literal translation at the side of it...

simply look at what it says...

then come back and argue about English translations afterwards.



Steve

p.s. if anyone wants to get technical about it all, it is all to do with the Greek grammar of hanging participles.

here's a link on the subject of the grammar of the verse from Mark which goes to the crux of the matter

 

[cyberlizard]

So would you say Paul was simply agreeing with what Jesus said?

technically Jesus never said unclean foods were clean otherwise he would have been a lawbreaker, hence a sinner (according to Paul's definition of sin). It was also make him a hypocrite as someone who tells the Pharisees to observe the commandments whilst teaching others to break them.

Jesus had no authority to change the Torah's rules before his death anyway as changes to a will/testament cannot become effective until the death of the testator (according to the book of Hebrews).


Steve

Steve

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

"Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15 Nothing outside a person can defile them by going into them. Rather, it is what comes out of a person that defiles them. ... Don’t you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? 19 For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.) Mark 7:14-15,18-19

Seems like quite a number of translators, all experts in Greek, say Mark does indeed say such a thing. Plus, Jesus says twice that nothing they're eating defiles a person. That's in direct conflict with Levitical food law.

So arguing over the end of :19 skirts Jesus' direct statement. And reinterpreting :19 will run afoul of the question as to why pork or crab is considered unclean (eating offal would not then make an animal unclean).

if people are actually really interested in the subject of what the text says, they need to put down there English translations and allow themselves to be open minded about the subject.

here is a direct link to the codex sinaiticus with a literal translation at the side of it...
simply look at what it says...
then come back and argue about English translations afterwards.
Steve
p.s. if anyone wants to get technical about it all, it is all to do with the Greek grammar of hanging participles.
here's a link on the subject of the grammar of the verse from Mark which goes to the crux of the matter

Better yet, just look at the Greek texts and see if the english translations agree with those

Mark 7 - Parallel Greek New Testament - HTML Bible by johnhurt.com


18


Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus
kai legei autoiV outwV kai umeiV asunetoi este ou noeite oti pan to exwqen eisporeuomenon eiV ton anqrwpon ou dunatai auton koinwsai
Scrivener 1894 Textus Receptus
kai legei autoiV outwV kai umeiV asunetoi este ou noeite oti pan to exwqen eisporeuomenon eiV ton anqrwpon ou dunatai auton koinwsai
Byzantine Majority
kai legei autoiV outwV kai umeiV asunetoi este ou noeite oti pan to exwqen eisporeuomenon eiV ton anqrwpon ou dunatai auton koinwsai
Alexandrian
kai legei autoiV outwV kai umeiV asunetoi este ou noeite oti pan to exwqen eisporeuomenon eiV ton anqrwpon ou dunatai auton koinwsai
Hort and Westcott
kai legei autoiV outwV kai umeiV asunetoi este ou noeite oti pan to exwqen eisporeuomenon eiV ton anqrwpon ou dunatai auton koinwsai

Latin Vulgate
7:18 et ait illis sic et vos inprudentes estis non intellegitis quia omne extrinsecus introiens in hominem non potest eum communicare
King James Version
7:18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, [it] cannot defile him;
American Standard Version
7:18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Perceive ye not, that whatsoever from without goeth into the man, it cannot defile him;
Bible in Basic English
7:18 And he said to them, Have even you so little wisdom? Do you not see that whatever goes into a man from outside is not able to make him unclean,
Darby's English Translation
7:18 And he says to them, Are ye also thus unintelligent? Do ye not perceive that all that is outside entering into the man cannot defile him,
Douay Rheims
7:18 And he saith to them: So are you also without knowledge? understand you not that every thing from without, entering into a man cannot defile him:
Noah Webster Bible
7:18 And he saith to them, Are ye so void of understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him.
Weymouth New Testament
7:18 'Have *you* also so little understanding?' He replied; 'do you not understand that anything whatever that enters a man from outside cannot make him unclean,
World English Bible
7:18 He said to them, 'Are you so without understanding also? Don't you perceive that whatever goes into the man from outside can't defile him,

Young's Literal Translation
7:18 and he saith to them, 'So also ye are without understanding! Do ye not perceive that nothing from without entering into the man is able to defile him?

 

[1whirlwind]

1 Timothy 4:3-4 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received withthanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:



He didn't create all food "to be received." All are good for all were created to perform a job. The unclean creatures serve as scavengers...they clean the earth and sea taking toxins from us....unless we consume them.


Eating these creatures doesn't defile us for as has been pointed out...it is what comes from us, our words, thoughts, deeds that defile us but...being defiled has nothing to do with consuming unhealthy foods.

I am given to wonder about "old age" troubles, alzheimers, high blood pressure, athritis, etc. Are they caused from years of consuming the wrong things?


.

 

[Frogster]

1 Timothy 4:3-4 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received withthanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:



He didn't create all food "to be received." All are good for all were created to perform a job.

Genesis 9:3 Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.

Sorry, but you may eat whatever u want to, or don't want to, but if it moves, it is food. shoot-n-eat.

The unclean creatures serve as scavengers...they clean the earth and sea taking toxins from us....unless we consume them.


Eating these creatures doesn't defile us for as has been pointed out...it is what comes from us, our words, thoughts, deeds that defile us but...being defiled has nothing to do with consuming unhealthy foods.

I am given to wonder about "old age" troubles, alzheimers, high blood pressure, athritis, etc. Are they caused from years of consuming the wrong things?


.

 

[Frogster]

technically Jesus never said unclean foods were clean otherwise he would have been a lawbreaker, hence a sinner (according to Paul's definition of sin). It was also make him a hypocrite as someone who tells the Pharisees to observe the commandments whilst teaching others to break them.

Jesus had no authority to change the Torah's rules before his death anyway as changes to a will/testament cannot become effective until the death of the testator (according to the book of Hebrews).


Steve

Steve

Oh, then r u saying since he did die, not the food laws are abolished?

Why does practically every bible, have 7;19 in it? Is it a conspiracy?

 

[nephilimiyr]

I believe Paul was talking about living the life of freedom from all things that teach us self-righteousness and a works based attempt at pleasing God. Since Jesus came and put an end to all of that kind of human desires and needs, we are free from all things, including rules against eating this or that.

 

[cyberlizard]

Oh, then r u saying since he did die, not the food laws are abolished?

Why does practically every bible, have 7;19 in it? Is it a conspiracy?

just look at the greek texts and then come back and argue. i have provided a link to the codex sinaiticus and there is a literal translation with it.


Steve

p.s. be led by the scriptures, not traditions or interpretations of them.

 

[New_Wineskin]

Did Paul declare all foods clean?

More or less . I picked "yes" . With respect to "clean" as in "not forbidden by the Lord" , Paul does declare all fooods clean but only to those who are concerned about the Scriptures ( more specifically - the Law ) being authoritative and looking to it for foods being "sin" or not .

 

[1whirlwind]

Genesis 9:3 Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.

Sorry, but you may eat whatever u want to, or don't want to, but if it moves, it is food. shoot-n-eat.

So....cannibalism is okay?



.

 

[Frogster]

So....cannibalism is okay?



.

Thos people in the Andes Mountains plane crash decades ago survived that way.

 

[Frogster]

just look at the greek texts and then come back and argue. i have provided a link to the codex sinaiticus and there is a literal translation with it.


Steve

p.s. be led by the scriptures, not traditions or interpretations of them.

Like I say steve, two of the most respected often quoted, scholars say it meant the abrogation of the food laws. Bruce and Lightfoot. Why would they say that, if it was not in some text somewhere, they were not ignorant of the manuscripts.


Your basically asking us to believe that all these translators put this verse by mistake, and all the commentators who say that it was abrogation, don't seem to know something you know.

Are you sayng it is not insome of the oldest greek manuscripts?

I read somewhere that it could be it that the sentence was inserted as a parenthetical editorial comment by Mark, or were the words were spoken by Jesus and quoted by Mark.


New American Standard Bible (©1995)
because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?" (Thus He declared all foods clean.)

Young's Literal Translation
because it doth not enter into his heart, but into the belly, and into the drain it doth go out, purifying all the meats.'

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by cyberlizard just look at the greek texts and then come back and argue. i have provided a link to the codex sinaiticus and there is a literal translation with it.
Steve
p.s. be led by the scriptures, not traditions or interpretations of them.

Oh, then r u saying since he did die, not the food laws are abolished?

Why does practically every bible, have 7;19 in it? Is it a conspiracy?

So do all the major greek texts

Mark 7 - Parallel Greek New Testament - HTML Bible by johnhurt.com
Mark 7
19
Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus
oti ouk eisporeuetai autou eiV thn kardian all eiV thn koilian kai eiV ton afedrwna ekporeuetai kaqarizon panta ta brwmata
Scrivener 1894 Textus Receptus
oti ouk eisporeuetai autou eiV thn kardian all eiV thn koilian kai eiV ton afedrwna ekporeuetai kaqarizon panta ta brwmata
Byzantine Majority
oti ouk eisporeuetai autou eiV thn kardian all eiV thn koilian kai eiV ton afedrwna ekporeuetai kaqarizon panta ta brwmata
Alexandrian
oti ouk eisporeuetai autou eiV thn kardian all eiV thn koilian kai eiV ton afedrwna ekporeuetai kaqarizwn panta ta brwmata
Hort and Westcott
oti ouk eisporeuetai autou eiV thn kardian all eiV thn koilian kai eiV ton afedrwna ekporeuetai kaqarizwn panta ta brwmata

American Standard Version
7:19 because it goeth not into his heart, but into his belly, and goeth out into the draught? This he said, making all meats clean.
Weymouth New Testament
7:19 because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and passes away ejected from him?' By these words Jesus pronounced all kinds of food clean.
Bible in Basic English
7:19 Because it goes not into the heart but into the stomach, and goes out with the waste? He said this, making all food clean.

Latin Vulgate
7:19 quia non introit in cor eius sed in ventrem et in secessum exit purgans omnes escas
King James Version
7:19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?
Darby's English Translation
7:19 because it does not enter into his heart but into his belly, and goes out into the draught, purging all meats?
Douay Rheims
7:19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but goeth into the belly, and goeth out into the privy, purging all meats?
Noah Webster Bible
7:19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all kinds of food.
World English Bible
7:19 because it doesn't go into his heart, but into his belly, and into the latrine, thus making all foods clean?'
Young's Literal Translation
7:19 because it doth not enter into his heart, but into the belly, and into the drain it doth go out, purifying all the meats.'