Female Pastors & Bible Teachers

[lone soldier]

Just because people go against the bible doesn't make it correct... :/

 

[Apollo Celestio]

Genesis 3:16 was a curse, but it's not a doctrine. If there was a curse, Christ undid it.

 

[MacFall]

Just because people go against the bible doesn't make it correct... :/

Nobody is going against the Bible. Look at the scriptural arguments that have been presented, for and against, before you start ridiculing a position. As has been repeated many times throughout this discussion, it is not about people who believe in the Bible vs. people who don't. It is about two different interpretations of a certain part of the Bible.

 

[MacFall]

Genesis 3:16 was a curse, but it's not a doctrine. If there was a curse, Christ undid it.

Quoted for emphasis

 

[Stravinsk]

Genesis 3:16 was a curse, but it's not a doctrine. If there was a curse, Christ undid it.

I think it is much more honest to look a little further at the rest of the passage:

To the woman He said:
“I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception;
In pain you shall bring forth children;
Your desire shall be for your husband,
And he shall rule over you.”
17 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’:
“ Cursed is the ground for your sake;
In toil you shall eat of it
All the days of your life.

18 Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you,
And you shall eat the herb of the field. 19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread
Till you return to the ground,
For out of it you were taken;
For dust you are,
And to dust you shall return.”

Leaving out the latter part of vrs 16 for the moment:

1) Women still have pain in childbirth
2) The ground is still "cursed" - it still brings forth thorns and thistles/weeds and so forth
3) We must still toil to eat
4) We still return to the ground


So if Christ lifted the curse - none of the above should be true, along with the first part of vrs 16.

The fact remains that we are still sinful creatures. Christ transforms us and redeems us - but the sinful nature, and it's consequences, remain.

The penalty for sin, however - death - not only physical but eternal seperation from God - has been lifted.


I think it is fair to say that God was not impressed at all with Adam(vrs 17) - that he listened to his wife instead of listening to God's command. Eve let herself be decieved - and Adam, chump and whipped as he was - didn't rebuke her nor take a leadership role.

 

[Apollo Celestio]

Then you assert that women are morally and spiritually inferior. Consistency IS good.

 

[Stravinsk]

Then you assert that women are morally and spiritually inferior. Consistency IS good.

I asserted no such thing. But I am being more honest with what the scripture says in light of undeniable realities.

 

[Sri]

If this was the case I would have nothing to do with God because I would be inferior to approach his thrown of grace with confidence, that's legalistic religion not Jesus centered relationship.I'm an intj with my degree in Pastoral. I teach children about the gospel. It is a fire in my bones. I am privelaged to have the ability and capability to learn weither anyone desires for me to or not and responsiblility and privelage to teach and pass on what I have learned to others. Woe to me if I know a better way and do not teach it merely because I'm a women. Proverbs 31 at least King Lemuel acknowledges an oracle his mother taught him.

 

[Apollo Celestio]

I asserted no such thing. But I am being more honest with what the scripture says in light of undeniable realities.

Even if that curse is still intact, it's not spiritual law. I still believe Christ undid it, considering it's spiritual nature. If it were true, then women would be incapable of leading anywhere. The divide between the spiritual and the secular is a wall we built ourselves. (For good or for ill, hippies.

 

[Stravinsk]

Even if that curse is still intact, it's not spiritual law. I still believe Christ undid it, considering it's spiritual nature. If it were true, then women would be incapable of leading anywhere. The divide between the spiritual and the secular is a wall we built ourselves. (For good or for ill, hippies.

In other words, you believe the relevant passages in Timothy and Corinthians are fabrications of man and therefore not God-breathed.

*Shrug* not a big surprise. Most churches disregard passages like Matt 24:18-20, when the whole context is not 70 AD as is assumed, but the end of the world.

"Wait, what are we doing here on Sunday then???" - shh...let's just skip over that one. "Perhaps it's not God breathed either...cuz...uhh...we'd have to admit we were wrong...and oh that might be...uh...a little embarressing...especially since it's been this way for so long.....let's heavily interpret it instead!!!"

Face it - most of practiced, organised Christianity is a pick and choose religion, changing translations and heavy, reaching "interpretation" to fit whatever popular current thought is at the moment.

 

[scraparcs]

Most? I thought all of Christianity was a sort of cafeteria religion.

 

[Zoness]

Women's spiritual inferiority is implied even though people fight to pretend like that is not the case. It has been for centuries.

 

[Blank123]

Most? I thought all of Christianity was a sort of cafeteria religion.

uh. no. Its not.

There are non-salvific issues many Christians debate over, but the core beliefs of Christianity (I.E. the gospel, The Trinity, the deity of Christ, etc...) are not something you can pick and choose from and still be able to honestly call yourself a Christian.

 

[scraparcs]

Women's spiritual inferiority is implied even though people fight to pretend like that is not the case. It has been for centuries.

What's funny is women seem to have higher status in early Christianity than they do now. Christianity strikes me as having been pretty progressive when it comes to the rights and capabilities of women. I wonder what changed.

 

[Balugon]

1) Women still have pain in childbirth
2) The ground is still "cursed" - it still brings forth thorns and thistles/weeds and so forth
3) We must still toil to eat
4) We still return to the ground


So if Christ lifted the curse - none of the above should be true, along with the first part of vrs 16.

The fact remains that we are still sinful creatures. Christ transforms us and redeems us - but the sinful nature, and it's consequences, remain.

The penalty for sin, however - death - not only physical but eternal seperation from God - has been lifted.

Taken from post 86 in this thread:

This is where your error is. Because you do not see the curses having been lifted (as an event) yet, you assume they were meant to stay. But is it not true that even eternal life is a choice? Even though Jesus died for our sins and opened up the way to heaven, people still have to choose holiness and salvation now, and some still go to Hell. In the same way, whether the ground is cursed or not is still linked to how we act and treat it (and how we treat God), just like it was written in Deut 28: " 1 If you fully obey the LORD your God and carefully follow all his commands I give you today...8 The LORD will send a blessing on your barns and on everything you put your hand to. The LORD your God will bless you in the land he is giving you. ...11 The LORD will grant you abundant prosperity—in the fruit of your womb, the young of your livestock and the crops of your ground—in the land he swore to your ancestors to give you. ...
15 However, if you do not obey the LORD your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today...23 The sky over your head will be bronze, the ground beneath you iron...38 You will sow much seed in the field but you will harvest little, because locusts will devour it. 39 You will plant vineyards and cultivate them but you will not drink the wine or gather the grapes, because worms will eat them. 40 You will have olive trees throughout your country but you will not use the oil, because the olives will drop off."

Even pain during childbearing is only temporary until we come up with technology to change that situation. As is death, because if the human race was allowed to develop long enough, we would come up with replaceable parts for all our body organs so that we could effectively live forever. It is up to us to choose to not live in the bondage that the Fall created, and part of that problem was treating women as second class and ruling over them. It's such an easy choice to make, and there is no good scientific evidence that indicates that women are any less capable of leading than men. And with that, we shouldn't be holding them back. And again, if humans are allowed to get technologically advanced enough, there will be no sex differences in the future, and so there will be able to be no argument in this area. And there is even Scriptural indication that it may be like this in Heaven: "30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven." Matthew 22:30

Also, Americans toil a heck of a lot less than early farmers did in growing food. Some of them sit in cozy air-conditioned uber-computer-powered tractors/harvesters while doing their job. I see this as us working in conjunction with God, cleaning up the mess and immorality we made. And as for the "sinful nature"- "17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new." 2 Corinthians 5:17. It isn't a sinful nature we wrestle with, it's a mix of ignorance and frustration/stress/assaults that we wrestle with. The ignorance allows temptation, and the frustration does as well, because we may want to take the sinful "easy way out" in situations to try to feel better, or we might want to retaliate for an action that somebody took that hurt us in some way. As it is written: "2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will." Romans 12:2. And if people don't see God's viewpoint or way in something, they are that much more inclined to possibly take a sinful route, and will be more tempted and wrestle with the decision to do so, because God's goodness isn't wooing them as much to go in God's direction.

 

[Zoness]

What's funny is women seem to have higher status in early Christianity than they do now. Christianity strikes me as having been pretty progressive when it comes to the rights and capabilities of women. I wonder what changed.

I wonder too. It would make a fascinating topic of discussion.

 

[Apollo Celestio]

I wonder too. It would make a fascinating topic of discussion.

It's simple, I think.Growth and Cultural infiltration and the death of the original leaders.

In other words, you believe the relevant passages in Timothy and Corinthians are fabrications of man and therefore not God-breathed.

I'll admit the bible isn't a sacred cow to me anymore.

 

[Sri]

why do you say that?

 

[GQ Chris]

Most? I thought all of Christianity was a sort of cafeteria religion.

That's what I thought about Roman Catholicism even as a kid, I knew something just wasn't right; I thank God for Jesus, He pulled me out of that burning building.

 

[GQ Chris]

Face it - most of practiced, organised Christianity is a pick and choose religion, changing translations and heavy, reaching "interpretation" to fit whatever popular current thought is at the moment.

Thanks Sir. This is the real issue.