Female Pastors & Bible Teachers

Brad2009

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Please see my edit about what "modifying" means.

Even so, saying that "Junia was outstanding in the apostles" still means she's an apostle. In means in. In this case "within". If Junia is in the apostles it means she's in that group, which means she is one of that group.
I was looking around at Greek prepositions earlier and I couldn't find a Koine Greek equivalent of "by" fwiw. We may be somewhat spoiled by the rich English lexicon.

:doh:You can't just take the word out of the sentence. "A&J are of note the apostles" doesn't make any sense either. You're essentially trying to replace the preposition with a different one. It doesn't say they were of note by the apostles. "They were of note in the apostles" still means they were apostles.

No, that's not what I'm doing. I was taking out the whole prepositional phrase not just the preposition. "A&J are of note" makes perfect sense, just as "Jesus was born" makes perfect sense. I think we should do a concordance search to see what uses en has and if it is used as a Koine Greek equivalent for "by". It will be alot, but I trust that between us we can parse the information.


Their rationale is obvious. "In" means "in." None of them needed to explain that because it's a given.

As I said, I think a concordance search is in order because now we are dickering over whether a more descriptive preposition in modern english ("by") had a Koine Greek equivalent.

This is fun by the way :) I'm glad to do this sort of work, looking at the raw data rather than trusting informed opinions.
 
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r035198x

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...Paul conveniently opened his letter to Timothy with an explanation that he was writing a letter to Timothy...
I don't know how much we should read into that the letter was written to Timothy.
The second letter that he also addressed to Timothy contains "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine ...."

My opinion on the subject?

There are no genders in the Spirit. When not in the Spirit, some men are women and should be silent in church. I would need Spiritual discernment to silence a female preacher if they claim that they are preaching in the Spirit.
I also think that this issue is given more importance than it deserves.
 
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GQ Chris

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There are no genders in the Spirit. When not in the Spirit, some men are women and should be silent in church. I would need Spiritual discernment to silence a female preacher if they claim that they are preaching in the Spirit.
I also think that this issue is given more importance than it deserves.


LOL. That is the most ridiculous thing I ever heard.
 
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GQ Chris

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That Galatians 3:28 verse is the one egalitarians love to twist the most to fit their agenda. In our relationship to Christ, as individuals, gender distinctions are irrelevant, but on earth, and our relationships with each other, God has not blurred any of that.
 
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r035198x

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LOL. That is the most ridiculous thing I ever heard.
You haven't read many of my posts then.

That Galatians 3:28 verse is the one egalitarians love to twist the most to fit their agenda. In our relationship to Christ, as individuals, gender distinctions are irrelevant, but on earth, and our relationships with each other, God has not blurred any of that.
Still waiting for you to say what is ridiculous in the post and why.
 
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Brad2009

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Brad, do you read Greek? I don't, as I've already said. Please use transliterations. What word is that? Authentein?

Yes, there is only one reference to that word. And it's a word that has been much disputed.

Here are some articles discussing it: The Meaning of Authentein

That Pesky Verb: Authentein (Authority) | Bill Bolin

We've got one other close example which is formed from the same root words:

Matthew 27:16 εἶχον δὲ τότε δέσμιον ἐπίσημον λεγόμενον [Ἰησοῦν] Βαραββᾶν.
They had then a notable prisoner, called Barabbas.

Transliterations of both:
<Romans 16:7 example> episémos
<Matthew 27:16 example> epis&#275;mon
 
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r035198x

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..well basically where the people who agree with that line of thinking want to eliminate anything having to do with gender distinctions. Where everyone is genderless eunuchs.

What line of thinking? I'm starting to think that you did not read my post at all. I thought you were going to say what you found ridiculous in it.

There are no genders in the Spirit.
Doyou perhaps think that there are genders in the Spirit?

When not in the Spirit, some
men are women and should be silent in church.
Or do you perhaps think that any man can preach in Church just because they are male?
 
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Tamara224

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You must admit that Paul does not state that there was some specific problem with women talking too much in church or being overwhelmed at being allowed into the temple. The specific problems in Ephesus are enumerated in your reference, but the extrapolation that it was 'women being chatterboxes in Ephesus' that prompts his later statement is nowhere to be found.

That's not what I believe 1 Timothy 2:12-15 is talking about.

I think the false teaching Paul was addressing in that passage was a form of goddess worship that taught that Eve was created first and that Adam was deceived. It taught that women had special gnosis - a stronger connection to the spiritual/mystical and should rule over men.

Historical research has shown that such a cult existed in Ephesus at the time.

That would perfectly explain why Paul brought Adam and Eve into the mix.

I see absolutely no reason to set aside an explicitly given rationale for an extrapolated one.
I see lots of reasons that give rise to questions if, indeed, Paul was using the example of Adam and Eve to explain why no woman should ever teach or be in authority over any man.

The first is the numerous examples of women teaching and being in authority over men in Scripture. If it was a universal law based on the created order then God would never break that law. But God appointed Deborah to be the leader [in authority] over all of the men in Israel and to judge them and teach them. Even one example of a woman being given the role of leader by God destroys the claim that God created us unfit to lead. Yet there are many examples of women exercising authority in Scripture.

The second reason is the implication present. If Paul's reason for women not being in authority is because Eve was deceived, then the implication is that all women are more deceivable than all men. I am not alone in finding such an implication morally repugnant. It suggests that women are morally inferior to men. And why would women's deceivableness make them unfit to teach or exercise authority only over men? If women are more prone to being deceived than men are, then why can women teach and exercise authority over other women and children? If men are less likely to be deceived, then wouldn't they be stronger and so less likely to be led in deception by the women? But other women who are also more deceivable would have no protection against a deceived woman leading them! It makes no sense. If the reason women shouldn't teach or exercise authority is because Eve was deceived, then they shouldn't teach or exercise authority, period. But Paul only says "over a man." Also, why did Paul say "a woman" and "a man". If he meant it to apply to all women and all men, then why didn't he say "women" and "men"?

The third reason is the word authentein in that passage. Like I said earlier, it only appears once in Scripture and, as the articles I linked to note, the proper translation is not "have authority" but "usurp authority" with the connotation of committing murder. If Paul had meant a regular exercise of authority (i.e. the kind of authority that would be unquestioned if a man were exercising it) he would have used the word exousia. Paul had in mind a specific kind of action that some woman, or women, were doing in Ephesus at the time.

The fourth reason is what follows in the passage: " But women will be saved through childbearing&#8212;if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety." This seems to say that women can only be saved by having children. As we all know, we are all saved by grace, through faith, not by works. And not all women have children.

Furthermore, the translators have taken some liberties with this passage. It shouldn't be "women will be saved through childbearing," it should be "the woman [singular] will be saved through the childbearing, if they continue in faith..." This indicates that "a woman" that Paul doesn't want to teach or authentein "a man" is "the woman" that will be saved through the childbearing if they ("a woman" and "a man") continue in faith. "The childbearing" is a noun in the sentence not a verb, which means that a particular birth is in mind. I'm of the opinion that it's referring to Christ's birth. And again, combating a gnostic heresy.

I was looking around at Greek prepositions earlier and I couldn't find a Koine Greek equivalent of "by" fwiw. We may be somewhat spoiled by the rich English lexicon.

Dia (#1223)

No, that's not what I'm doing. I was taking out the whole prepositional phrase not just the preposition.
Even worse.

"A&J are of note" makes perfect sense, just as "Jesus was born" makes perfect sense.
Oh, sure it does. So does "A&J are noteworthy" and "A&J are outstanding".

But you had to remove a whole phrase from Scripture to make it mean that. You can't just take out a whole phrase from the sentence and say it has no meaning. If we remove words and phrases from Scripture, we can make any verse say anything we want it to say.

I think we should do a concordance search to see what uses en has and if it is used as a Koine Greek equivalent for "by". It will be alot, but I trust that between us we can parse the information.
Greek prepositions:

http://www.stfonline.org/pdf/rev/appendix%20c_commentary.pdf

As I said, I think a concordance search is in order because now we are dickering over whether a more descriptive preposition in modern english ("by") had a Koine Greek equivalent.
Actually, Greek had more propositions than English.

This is fun by the way :) I'm glad to do this sort of work, looking at the raw data rather than trusting informed opinions.
Neither of us is looking at the raw data. Strongs is an informed opinion.
 
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Tamara224

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That was already highly debated by Scholars. Junia is a man, just like Aquila is a man.

Junia is a female name. Yes, it was debated by scholars. And besides the notable exception of Grudem and Piper, Greek scholars all agree that Junia was always a female name and never a male.
 
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Tamara224

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That Galatians 3:28 verse is the one egalitarians love to twist the most to fit their agenda. In our relationship to Christ, as individuals, gender distinctions are irrelevant, but on earth, and our relationships with each other, God has not blurred any of that.

Then only free male Jews can be leaders in the Church. Gentiles, women and slaves are all out if the distinctions still exist.
 
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Tamara224

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We've got one other close example which is formed from the same root words:

Matthew 27:16 &#949;&#7990;&#967;&#959;&#957; &#948;&#8050; &#964;&#972;&#964;&#949; &#948;&#941;&#963;&#956;&#953;&#959;&#957; &#7952;&#960;&#943;&#963;&#951;&#956;&#959;&#957; &#955;&#949;&#947;&#972;&#956;&#949;&#957;&#959;&#957; [&#7992;&#951;&#963;&#959;&#8166;&#957;] &#914;&#945;&#961;&#945;&#946;&#946;&#8118;&#957;.
They had then a notable prisoner, called Barabbas.

Transliterations of both:
<Romans 16:7 example> episémos
<Matthew 27:16 example> epis&#275;mon


And if we follow your logic, Barabbas wasn't a prisoner, he was just known by prisoners.
 
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MacFall

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Not even remotely comparable. There is scriptural evidence (not only that, but scriptural instances) of women in leadership. The nature of Jonathan and David's relationship (sexual or otherwise) is pure speculation. You're basically just engaging in name-calling here.
 
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