In awe of J.Smith ?

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mannysee

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Today I invited a couple of LDS folks around to hear what they had to say. At one stage one of the young men began speaking about Smith and his event with God/s in the "grove", then spoke some more about Smith.

He seemed to take on a rather hushed/reflective tone and then paused for a moment, almost like he was over-awed. Kind of like reaching a peak of composed rapture?

I was wondering if this kind of presentation is something which is taught to do in the preparation classes* of these folks. Or whether in addition this is just something which some LDS people express toward Smith.

*My thought here being as if it was supposed to influence me in some way i.e. make me go "Wow! there's something to this.", toward their message?

Some answers would be helpful from former LDS.
 
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FireOfTheCovenant

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It's something you pick up in the Missionary Training Center. Missionaries, in my opinion, are very manipulative.

Joseph Smith is held in very highly in the LDS church. Sometimes you can go to church for three hours and hear more praise about JS than for Jesus. It's quite disturbing.
 
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Rescued One

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Joseph Smith is held in very highly in the LDS church. Sometimes you can go to church for three hours and hear more praise about JS than for Jesus. It's quite disturbing.

I noticed that when I was LDS.
 
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perrfekt

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i have family who is LDS and my wife is former LDS. the most shocking thing i ran into with my wife was when i told her i did not believe we would be married in heaven. we talked about that recently and she told me that she felt i could stop loving her at any moment because i both didn't believe in eternal marriage and would instead be given only to Christ.
 
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Son of Zadok

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It is all a manner of perspective and personal point of view. For example many posters will post more negative things about Joseph Smith than they will positive things about Christ. Almost never have I ever seen anyone disturbed about that???

Son of Zadok
 
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mannysee

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Thanks for the answers.
Anyway, they explained a little bit about the Mormon book and suggested I read some of it. They also brought up the praying to see if it is true thing.
I replied that I could see nowhere in either the OT or the NT any similar suggestion to the audience to pray whether a document were true.
So I won't be going down that route anytime.

Before they left I asked them what the "fullness of the gospel" exactly meant. They listed off a few things, and I wonder if there is more to come. Hmmn, how could all these things be good news to a lawbreaking sinner who cannot please God?

They will be coming back next week and I'm fine with that.
I'd like to discuss the righteousness of God in comparison with the righteousness of the law with them next time.

Might post next time about what we discussed.
 
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Rescued One

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Thanks for the answers.
Anyway, they explained a little bit about the Mormon book and suggested I read some of it. They also brought up the praying to see if it is true thing.
I replied that I could see nowhere in either the OT or the NT any similar suggestion to the audience to pray whether a document were true.
So I won't be going down that route anytime.

However, in the N. T. we are instructed to pray for wisdom:

If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
James 1:5

Before they left I asked them what the "fullness of the gospel" exactly meant. They listed off a few things, and I wonder if there is more to come. Hmmn, how could all these things be good news to a lawbreaking sinner who cannot please God?

They will be coming back next week and I'm fine with that.
I'd like to discuss the righteousness of God in comparison with the righteousness of the law with them next time.

Might post next time about what we discussed.

Maybe you could ask them about the Law of Moses versus the Higher Law.

"To enter the celestial and obtain exaltation it is necessary that the whole law be kept...Do you desire to enter the celestial Kingdom and receive eternal life? Then be willing to keep all of the commandments."
Joseph Fielding Smith, The Way to Perfection, p. 206
 
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Vanhin

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The event of the First Vision is a very sacred event in Mormonism, precisely because it marked the advent of the dispensation of the fullness of times (Eph. 1:10). The heavens were once again open, and God communed with man as He had anciently. The knowledge of the reality of this event obtained from God by the prayer of faith and by revelation, is a foundation for latter-day saint testimony. We speak reverently about sacred things, because reverence invites revelation.

As missionaries, we want nothing more than for those who we teach to receive this revelation from God. So, we try to maintain an atmosphere where the influence of the Spirit can be felt and recognized. The voice of the Lord is not usually in the wind, or the earth quake, or in the fire (though it can be of course), but as Elijah learned, it is a still small voice (1 Kings 19:11-12).

It's those quiet moments when we reflect upon the beauty of God's creations in nature, or when a baby is sleeping peacefully in our arms, or when reading about the gentle mercies of the Lord in scripture - that's when, if we are receptive, the voice of the Lord resonates in our hearts.

However, the facilitation of an environment where the Spirit can be felt is only part of the process. Missionaries don't have the power to cause anyone to believe, or to compel them in any way against their will. The trial of faith that an individual must endure on their own, is what leads to a witness of truth more precious than gold (1 Pet. 1:7).

Regards,
Vanhin
 
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Moodshadow

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It is all a manner of perspective and personal point of view. For example many posters will post more negative things about Joseph Smith than they will positive things about Christ. Almost never have I ever seen anyone disturbed about that???

Son of Zadok

I agree that it can be a very personal and subjective thing. However, there's much more to it than that. Comparing Joseph Smith to Jesus Christ is just wrong, first of all. And second, of course you're going to hear more negative things about Joseph Smith - in general - in a place where Mormonism is considered unorthodox theology. Wouldn't you expect that? But that doesn't necessarily mean that the people who express those thoughts and ideas feel negatively about Jesus Christ, or that they don't have positive things to say about Him. And it would also follow that you, as a Latter-day Saint, would naturally be more "disturbed" (to use your word) about all of the above than someone who is not LDS. It could be that your fellow LDS posters share your sentiments but just haven't expressed them.
 
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perrfekt

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We speak reverently about sacred things, because reverence invites revelation.

It's those quiet moments when we reflect upon the beauty of God's creations in nature, or when a baby is sleeping peacefully in our arms, or when reading about the gentle mercies of the Lord in scripture - that's when, if we are receptive, the voice of the Lord resonates in our hearts.

However, the facilitation of an environment where the Spirit can be felt is only part of the process.

Mormonism relies heavily on emotions. Many of the things taught within the LDS faith have a foundation of happiness and warm feelings. If it feels right, it must be true. This is the same reason that some who leave the faith, after having been so emotionally attached and dependent, feel burned. Not due to leaving the faith, but because they have been deceived. Like a spouse who has been deceived, often times they leave unwilling to love or share that level of commitment again.

In comparison, the Christian faith has a foundation laid in facts, reason, and truth, seperate from emotions. Regardless of how one feels, the faith does not change. The most prominent difference between Christianity and Mormonism, is while the Christian prays to receive wisdom that he may rightly divide truth from lies, the LDS pray to receive an emotional response to determine truth on a specific matter. This is referred to the "Burning in the bossom".
 
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VolRaider

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I have attended two LDS services - one of my friends is a Mormon. I always read about how they talk about JS more than Christ. Both times combined I have heard Smith's name twice. Christ's name was heard repeatedly. There was one small unframed pic of Smith in the church while pictures of Jesus were everywhere. I did not sense more of a reference for Smith than Christ.
Having said that, I agree the Mormons rely heavily on emotion. I don't see how anybody can buy into the church, especially with all of the archaeological evidence stacked against the Book of Mormon. However, I know for a fact they do not worship Smith. He is seen as the greatest prophet, but nothing more.
 
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Rescued One

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I have attended two LDS services - one of my friends is a Mormon. I always read about how they talk about JS more than Christ. Both times combined I have heard Smith's name twice. Christ's name was heard repeatedly. There was one small unframed pic of Smith in the church while pictures of Jesus were everywhere. I did not sense more of a reference for Smith than Christ.
Having said that, I agree the Mormons rely heavily on emotion. I don't see how anybody can buy into the church, especially with all of the archaeological evidence stacked against the Book of Mormon. However, I know for a fact they do not worship Smith. He is seen as the greatest prophet, but nothing more.

I do not doubt that there has been more emphasis on Christ since I left in the last century. The LDS church has received a lot of criticism for their lack of emphasis on Christ; therefore, changes have been made. But one fact remains: LDS insist that believing in Joseph Smith and their modern day church leaders is a requirement for eternal life.

Interview Questions for Recommends to Enter a Temple

3. Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days?

4. Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church?


In addition to being married in the temple, what must we do to ensure that we will be together in the celestial kingdom? (Live worthy lives, keep the commandments of Heavenly Father, and endure to the end.)...

Read John 14:2. Explain that each family is a unit and can inherit a place or mansion in Heavenly Father’s kingdom.


“Youth should begin today to so order their lives that they will be found worthy at the proper time to go to the House of the Lord and be uplifted and sanctified by the temple ceremony” (Harold B. Lee, “Enter a Holy Temple,” Improvement Era, June 1967, p. 144).

Young Women Manual 2 Lesson 15: Temple Marriage




Our greatest safety is, and always has been, to strictly follow the word of the Lord through his prophets—most importantly, the Lord’s living prophet. The Lord has said,

“Wherefore…thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me; For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith. For by doing these things the gates of hell shall not prevail against you; yea, and the Lord God will disperse the powers of darkness from before you, and cause the heavens to shake for your good, and his name's glory.” 7
If we will listen to and follow the counsel of living prophets and apostles, we will not go astray, 8 and we will be protected from the judgments that will be unleashed upon the wicked before the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

The Living Prophet--We must follow God's Prophet on Earth


"Almost invariably, we find that the greatest criticism of Church leaders and doctrine comes from those who are not doing their full duty, following the leaders, or living according to the teachings of the gospel”
N. Eldon Tanner, "Judge Not, That Ye Be Not Judged," Ensign, July 1972, p. 35

“We have been promised that the President of the Church will receive guidance for all of us as the revelator for the Church. Our safety lies in paying heed to that which he says and following his counsel”
James E. Faust, Second Counselor in the First Presidency, “Continuous Revelation,” Ensign, Nov. 1989, p. 10


LDS Hymn #27: Praise to the Man

1) Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah! Jesus annointed that Prophet and Seer.

Blessed to open the last dispensation, Kings shall extol him, and nations revere.


chorus: Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven! Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.

Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren; Death cannot conquer the hero again.



2) Praise to his memory, he died as a martyr; Honored and blest be his ever great name!

Long shall his blood, which was shed by assassins, Plead unto heaven while the earth lauds his fame.



3) Great is his glory and endless his priesthood: Ever and ever the keys he will hold.

Faithful and true, he will enter his kingdom, Crowned in the midst of the prophets of old.


4) Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven; Earth must atone for the blood of that man.

Wake up the world for the conflict of justice. Millions shall know "brother Joseph" again.



"NO SALVATION WITHOUT ACCEPTING JOSEPH SMITH. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God"
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190
 
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mannysee

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Just thinking aloud here:-
If Jesus the Christ is the Son of God/God/just another man who along the way became a god (LDS thinking?), then I suppose I could understand why an LDS person might place Smith and the Christ in more-or-less the same box i.e. LDS teaching holding the idea that man can become a god along a timeline, like? Christ.
Whereas Christianity has a strict line between creator and the creation (man) and has no theology of man becoming a god.
[no need to post LDS bible texts to support this false idea. I've seen them many times before]

A second thought:-
Part of their introductory message was that we should have a prophet (on the earth?) and this prophet is the one we need to listen to, or believe in as mentioned above.
Now putting aside for the moment the idea that for 1700 years God was quiet through a prophet, it was only later after they had left that I remembered a term I've heard before: "Christ as prophet, priest and king."

I think this term may be found especially within Reformed churches (I consider myself of these convictions) and the idea here is that as Christ is alive and currently reigning in his kingdom in heaven over the earth and man, He now speaks and acts in these roles.
As prophet, priest and king.
I won't list scriptures at this time in support, but they are numerous in the bible.

So in my mind it would rather be correct to say that the prophet who is alive today and tomorrow and forever is Jesus the Christ, rather than Joseph Smith. He is the one whom we must not refuse.

I might bring this up when they come around again later in the week.
 
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perrfekt

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No, I am not. I'm not sure what I am.


gotcha, just wanted to know where your coming from:p if you haven't heard of him before, you might wanna check this guy out. Shawn McCraney at hotm.tv. pretty good guy and was LDS most of his life and was born again 4 years before he left the church. his show comes on at 8pm MST tuesdays and broadcasts in SLC and Boise ID, or you can watch it streaming on the website. and its a call in show so if you wanted to ask questions the last 30min he takes phone calls.
 
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A New Dawn

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I know people who take the words of Joseph Smith mover what Jesus had taught

This is true. That is because they believe that new revelation trumps old revelation. Their explanation for that is that the old revelations were tampered with, or outright removed from the canon of scripture, leaving what we have as the Bible to be imperfect and incomplete.
 
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