Men Step Up

[chaz345]

Cons...maybe you as a man don't hear it, simply because of the fact that you are a man, and it isn't directed towards you. It IS widely taught...I can promise you. Women aren't having the same delusion all across America...they ARE hearing it.

Then how about providing an example that actually says that it's all well and good and fine and perfectly normal for men to lust. Because that isn't at all what's said in the Feldman book. IOW the book as provided does not at all say what the original assertion says it does.

 

[Conservativation]

Lets change the topic a bit-
Women don't forget things. We remember what you said, how you said it, where you were when you said it. Especially if it was something we didn't like. For us, its 'normal' or the way we are made. What we need is for you men to take ownership of what you said and how it made us feel. But how many times are we told to 'forgive, let it go, don't hold bitterness etc.' Men aren't told to accept the way we are and to help us through it.
Can you see the difference?

Lets unpack that.

If I said something seven years ago, and she is STILL dragging it into discussions, she absolutely needs to JUST forgive and forget. Sorry, thats a fact, there IS NO "help her work through it"....he apologized 7 years ago, I dont CARE how its filed in her mind, the FACT is get over it.

Here is how that works in your analogy. As he should have dealt with what he said soon after saying it, then later she needs to be accountable for her dragging out settled things, she can both hold him accountable for lusting over women, AND see that it may happen...not excuse it, but being understanding of something that MIGHT happen, is the same as him being understanding about what MIGHT happen when she drags out all old baggage in every argument. Its a "tendency" women have.

Here we are not therefore focusing on the fact that women have that tendency, and accusing women therefore of saying hey, deal with it, its how we are made....when they sin by regurgitating history. That would be analogous to what you are doing. If men just went on a rant about gosh ladies you are hiding behind your created nature to justify this sin. Telling someone they need to forgive is not the same as telling someone they are very messed up, and they are hiding behind their nature and perverting their nature. You women are about six layers deeper in your acrimony about this nature of men than is NOT sin but can BECOME sin, as we men are about your nature that IS NOT sin, but can BECOME sin.

Rebuke us when we sin, similar the the "just forgive" when you sin per your example. Then the two would be handled consistent to one another.

What I dont see is the same treatment to men, being doled out to women about this nature of yours to do this. It angers us WHEN IT HAPPENS. This thing about men angers you IN GENERAL....it lives in your mind rent free for petes sake. I NEVER sit and think oh no, my wife will one day whip out an old fact, and women are told they are just made that way and therefore she will feel justified. What a bizarre worry. I deal with sin as I face it.

You should too, and thats the analogy

 

[chaz345]

You aren't letting up on Lyndie...you are hounding her for answers.

I agree....and who do you feel benefits most from that blurring? Wouldn't the ones that benefit from the blur....create the blur?

Who benefits from the blurring? Women. The blurring and the idea that something that is normal and inherent to being a man is sinful is the foundation upon which the while idea that women are spiritually superior rests.

Another way to determine who is doing the blurring is to see who is doggedly insisting that statements mean something other than ot in addition to what they actually say. And face it, every single time the topic of male visualness is brought up, even if it stopps well short of the rolodex idea, it's still always portrayed as sin, even if what was mentioned was explicitily qualified as being just the initial notice.

 

[Conservativation]

Originally Posted by mkgal1
Cons...maybe you as a man don't hear it, simply because of the fact that you are a man, and it isn't directed towards you. It IS widely taught...I can promise you. Women aren't having the same delusion all across America...they ARE hearing it.


You are correct, women all across America (America...hmmmm) are not suffering this delusion. They are reading the misunderstood comments of a few who are upset about this, and not seeking to put any effort into looking into it, and piling on. MANY of them would drop this obsession if faced with a rational discussion. But some of you have whipped this up so badly its created a conventional wisdom about men, like the other million bad things about men that need to be "feared"...and it goes viral.

SOMETHING is widely taught, you are correct. And then you and others hear it through how it makes you FEEL, and you cannot see the actual limited and true meaning of only the words on the page. You are stuck in your feelings.

 

[chaz345]

You aren't letting up on Lyndie...you are hounding her for answers

You're right, asking someone what they meant is so much worse than your way of just deciding for them what they meant.

 

[chaz345]

Originally Posted by mkgal1

I take it that the way the author is saying men ARE created is to "notice" the way the group of men all did. I realize you see my view as "flawed"....but, her book semed to be focusing on the fact that many of her "trusted" male friends would have had the same thoughts when watching the female presenter...thoughts like:

"I wonder what she has on under that suit"

"Look at her face...her face...look at her face"

"I am finding it difficult to concentrate on what she is saying...."

"I wonder what she is like in bed."

THAT is what she seems to be saying is how men are created. Do you agree that is what "noticing" is, Chaz?
​

No that is more than noticing. But if you'd stop and slow down and look at ALL of what she is saying, nowhere does she say that any of the above examples are good and something to be done or allowed or excused. There are actually several places where fighting against such thoughts, and the fact that the guys that admitted having the thoughts know that they must fight them are mentioned. Her overall point is that good or not, they are the sorts of things that men struggle to not do and that women need to UNDERSTAND that struggle. Not accept the behavior, not say "oh well that's just how he's made, but understand that its something he's got to actively fight against every day. The fact that some here insist that it's nothing more than a simple easy choice to just not do it is pretty good evidence that that message is needed.


In any case, the value to women in the blurring has been amply demonstrated in this huge derail. We've completely avoided any discussion of the real topic which is that "men step up" while a good and necessary message is ALONE, never going to solve the problem.

 

[Conservativation]

No that is more than noticing. But if you'd stop and slow down and look at ALL of what she is saying, nowhere does she say that any of the above examples are good and something to be done or allowed or excused. There are actually several places where fighting against such thoughts, and the fact that the guys that admitted having the thoughts know that they must fight them are mentioned. Her overall point is that good or not, they are the sorts of things that men struggle to not do and that women need to UNDERSTAND that struggle. Not accept the behavior, not say "oh well that's just how he's made, but understand that its something he's got to actively fight against every day. The fact that some here insist that it's nothing more than a simple easy choice to just not do it is pretty good evidence that that message is needed.


In any case, the value to women in the blurring has been amply demonstrated in this huge derail. We've completely avoided any discussion of the real topic which is that "men step up" while a good and necessary message is ALONE, never going to solve the problem.

Here are some ogling issues from the ladies side, on fox website today

ust in case you’ve been living under a rock for the past week, let’s start with a little bit of background. To chronicle four (very) successful years, Duke University senior Karen Owens created an extensive, 42-page PowerPoint presentation on some of the men she slept with while in college.

Hilarious, very detailed and sort of admirable (I will explain), the PowerPoint was sent out to a few friends, who then forwarded it on… and on… and on… until it reached the Internet where, faster than the speed of a celebrity sex video, it has gone totally viral.

Each conquest on her hit list had his very own set of slides, complete with photos, background on the events leading up to the hookup(s), pros and cons of the hookup, and a raw score from 1-10, rating the encounter. The raw score was calculated by tallying up points for physical attractiveness (height, jaw line, and hair included), size, talent, creativity, aggressiveness, entertainment value (like sexts, dirty talk and having a great personality), athletic ability, and bonus points for things like cool accents (being Canadian takes points away apparently. What’s up with that, eh?).

Ultimately, this PowerPoint reads like a very detailed black book. We get info about where the action happens (forget the bedroom, let’s talk about library sex!), how long the dudes last, how large (or apparently frighteningly, disappointingly small) their members are, and some sweet shirt-free shots of the subjects. This all goes to show that, as our dear Carrie Bradshaw once said in “Sex and the City,” women can—and do—talk and have sex like men. How incredibly freeing! Right?

-----------------------------

How can this BEEEEEEEEEEEEEE?

 

[Robinsegg]

My husband is a man. He looks at other women. The idea of sex with anyone but his wife disgusts him (as the idea of having sex with another guy disgusts me), but he *does* look. I look at him and let him know I'm glad everything still works

I am a woman. I like to talk. I want to know what hubby thinks & feels. I want to know what works and what doesn't. I'm learning to understand that sometimes dh simply *doesn't have* an opinion or doesn't *know* how he feels about something. He's learning to be a sounding board for me to hear my own thoughts, and to know when it's important to listen (mostly by my statement that I need him to). I'm also learning to give him time to prepare for a certain topic so that he is better equipped to talk with me. (I don't have a problem with leaving the past in the past. I simply know that bringing up past history now isn't useful.)

Rachel

 

[JanniGirl]

Cons . . . so what's your point about the female college student? -- I don't read that she's a Christian. Are you simply pointing out that the world is full fo sin? -- We all noticed that already, BTW.

I read the Feldman book (both of them -- one for men and one for women). Unfortunately, the Library tends to want you to return them once your done reading, so I don't have either on hand.

Feldman illustrates what's "normal" and "usual" for men. She even lists polls and antecdotal information. So, this is what CHRISTIAN men self-identify as their usual and normal behavior. Mentally undressing women and imaging sex with them, following them in the store to "get a second look", etc. Some men do admit that they shouldn't be doing it . . . however, Feldman's book is basically about accepting men "the way they are made" -- as if they are inherently made to chase women down so that they can picture having sex with them.

And also, BTW -- every Christian has to fight sin every single day. If sexual sin is no different than any other sin . . . why the special (continued) emphasis by guys on how "hard" it is to continually fight it? -- Answer: Because you want to try to make into this HUGELY DIFFICULT thing so that you have an EXCUSE for when you sin.

 

[mkgal1]

Lets change the topic a bit-
Women don't forget things. We remember what you said, how you said it, where you were when you said it. Especially if it was something we didn't like. For us, its 'normal' or the way we are made. What we need is for you men to take ownership of what you said and how it made us feel. But how many times are we told to 'forgive, let it go, don't hold bitterness etc.' Men aren't told to accept the way we are and to help us through it.
Can you see the difference?

Lets unpack that.

If I said something seven years ago, and she is STILL dragging it into discussions, she absolutely needs to JUST forgive and forget. Sorry, thats a fact, there IS NO "help her work through it"....he apologized 7 years ago, I dont CARE how its filed in her mind, the FACT is get over it.

She never said there was an apology....and really....we need MORE than an apology...we need a change in direction---a repentance. I like the analogy of someone stomping on your toes.....so, you say it hurts....they say they are sorry...but, they keep on doing it. THAT is not a change in direction....that is not remorse for what you had done....that "sorry" is a band-aid...but, it doesn't do anything to restore the relationship.

Also...something like, "I am sorry, already!!!......Now can you FINALLY get over this so we can move on..." isn't an apology. Just throwing the word "sorry" into a sentence is not an apology.

If the behavior never stopped....then it isn't from 7 years ago......it is in the present day....it IS current.

 

[Conservativation]

She never said there was an apology....and really....we need MORE than an apology...we need a change in direction---a repentance. I like the analogy of someone stomping on your toes.....so, you say it hurts....they say they are sorry...but, they keep on doing it. THAT is not a change in direction....that is not remorse for what you had done....that "sorry" is a band-aid...but, it doesn't do anything to restore the relationship.

Also...something like, "I am sorry, already!!!......Now can you FINALLY get over this so we can move on..." isn't an apology. Just throwing the word "sorry" into a sentence is not an apology.

If the behavior never stopped....then it isn't from 7 years ago......it is in the present day....it IS current.

Oh whatever...I have no comment.

 

[Lyndie]

Cons . . . so what's your point about the female college student? -- I don't read that she's a Christian. Are you simply pointing out that the world is full fo sin? -- We all noticed that already, BTW.

I read the Feldman book (both of them -- one for men and one for women). Unfortunately, the Library tends to want you to return them once your done reading, so I don't have either on hand.

Feldman illustrates what's "normal" and "usual" for men. She even lists polls and antecdotal information. So, this is what CHRISTIAN men self-identify as their usual and normal behavior. Mentally undressing women and imaging sex with them, following them in the store to "get a second look", etc. Some men do admit that they shouldn't be doing it . . . however, Feldman's book is basically about accepting men "the way they are made" -- as if they are inherently made to chase women down so that they can picture having sex with them.

And also, BTW -- every Christian has to fight sin every single day. If sexual sin is no different than any other sin . . . why the special (continued) emphasis by guys on how "hard" it is to continually fight it? -- Answer: Because you want to try to make into this HUGELY DIFFICULT thing so that you have an EXCUSE for when you sin.

This is it in a nustshell. On the last pages she even says as much that our poor men are bombarded with images everyday and they have it oh so hard and we should support them because they work long hours and have stressful jobs and it makes them weak blah blah blah....
Maybe, just maybe if we stop coddling men and justifying thier weaknesses they would step up.

 

[Conservativation]

Cons . . . so what's your point about the female college student? -- I don't read that she's a Christian. Are you simply pointing out that the world is full fo sin? -- We all noticed that already, BTW.

I read the Feldman book (both of them -- one for men and one for women). Unfortunately, the Library tends to want you to return them once your done reading, so I don't have either on hand.

Feldman illustrates what's "normal" and "usual" for men. She even lists polls and antecdotal information. So, this is what CHRISTIAN men self-identify as their usual and normal behavior. Mentally undressing women and imaging sex with them, following them in the store to "get a second look", etc. Some men do admit that they shouldn't be doing it . . . however, Feldman's book is basically about accepting men "the way they are made" -- as if they are inherently made to chase women down so that they can picture having sex with them.

And also, BTW -- every Christian has to fight sin every single day. If sexual sin is no different than any other sin . . . why the special (continued) emphasis by guys on how "hard" it is to continually fight it? -- Answer: Because you want to try to make into this HUGELY DIFFICULT thing so that you have an EXCUSE for when you sin.

Your last paragraph puts lights on and magnifies how you are misunderstanding all that was said.
One can describe any sin....dig into that aspect of their nature that makes them vulnerable to that sin....and talk about that nature, and there is nothing in that talk that justifies the sin.
If we were talking about ANY OTHER sin and the nature that makes it a weakness....you wouldn't be saying this.

Its an imperfect analogy, but, its like talking about appetite for food, and how a powerful appetite out of control can lead to gluttony and obesity. This is 100% true, and 100% NOT justifying the gluttony.

Actually in this case it IS a good analogy. I know very well how you will read it....that I am comparing sex drive to appetite, and then I will get back the "you cant live without food" and round and round. But the anaogy isnt between sex and food, its between the fact that we treat a tendency...ANY tendency that can be a weakness one way, and this thing about men another.

Its a double standard.

Its ok though, will take more than I have to drag you out of it.


Your alternative is to find a man with no sex drive. Its really that simple. We have one, its made in is, it isnt sinful as a drive. You have certain things in you that lean you towards sins you commit.
But thats ok isnt it?
So, since you cannot acknowledge this about men.....you leave yourself only one choice.....a man with NO SEX DRIVE...that is the ONLY acceptable man for you. You cnt have it both ways.

 

[chaz345]

This is it in a nustshell. On the last pages she even says as much that our poor men are bombarded with images everyday and they have it oh so hard and we should support them because they work long hours and have stressful jobs and it makes them weak blah blah blah....
Maybe, just maybe if we stop coddling men and justifying thier weaknesses they would step up.

Maybe things overall would be a lot better in a lot of ways if some could just stop seeing things that simply aren't there.

I dare you to e-mail Feldman with your interpretation of what she's said. I absolutely 100% guarantee that she's not justifying or excusing sin. You won't do it though because the meaning that you've constructed is much more comfortable for you.

 

[JanniGirl]

Cons,


are you talking about this tendency for men to sexually sin as "another" powerful appetite that is out of control? -- Step up and do something about it rather than implying that its "just the way we're made".

It's not a double standard. Sorry. Everybody acknowledges that Gluttony is sinful. But, we usually don't look for excuses "I was made this way." "My wife made me do it" "I was tempted by all the food out there -- not my fault." We usually attribute it to a lack of self control and acknowledge its harmful effects on our lives and our family and even our society as a whole. Of course, there is the tendency by those who are gluttons to downplay their lack of self-control. Nobody really buys it, though. We all saw them eat their first plate of food and return for more and more.

I'm not buying this one either . . . . men do need to control themselves; books like this give them an unhealthy "crutch" by characterizing sinful behaviors (mentally undressing women, fantasizing about sex, and lingering looks) as "normal" and somehow ok-ish. Because life is SO HARD for men.

 

[chaz345]

I'm not buying this one either . . . . men do need to control themselves; books like this give them an unhealthy "crutch" by characterizing sinful behaviors (mentally undressing women, fantasizing about sex, and lingering looks) as "normal" and somehow ok-ish. Because life is SO HARD for men.

Except that the book doesn't actually do that.

 

[Conservativation]

Cons,


are you talking about this tendency for men to sexually sin as "another" powerful appetite that is out of control? -- Step up and do something about it rather than implying that its "just the way we're made".

It's not a double standard. Sorry. Everybody acknowledges that Gluttony is sinful. But, we usually don't look for excuses "I was made this way." "My wife made me do it" "I was tempted by all the food out there -- not my fault." We usually attribute it to a lack of self control and acknowledge its harmful effects on our lives and our family and even our society as a whole. Of course, there is the tendency by those who are gluttons to downplay their lack of self-control. Nobody really buys it, though. We all saw them eat their first plate of food and return for more and more.

I'm not buying this one either . . . . men do need to control themselves; books like this give them an unhealthy "crutch" by characterizing sinful behaviors (mentally undressing women, fantasizing about sex, and lingering looks) as "normal" and somehow ok-ish. Because life is SO HARD for men.

But the part about justifying NOT controlling themselves

YOU ARE MAKING UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You are so close to the truth, but it would mean you have to stop demonizing men.

You say:

are you talking about this tendency for men to sexually sin as "another" powerful appetite that is out of control? -- Step up and do something about it rather than implying that its "just the way we're made".

The part italicized is YOUR PROBLEM...not men's....I too recommend controlling it, Ive NEVER said "its just the way we are"...nor does that author. You use the word "IMPLYING".....open your mind to that fact that its YOU implying that. I cannot be responsible for some kook excusing himself that way.....I CAN say unequivocally that that is NOT being taught as OK, by that author or anyone else except a kook here and there. Like so many issues a few women are spreading this disinformation, you don't read men saying this, you read women saying they read men saying this.Can you not see even the microscopic fact that you are sitting there lecturing ME, and CHAZ.....as if we are saying this excuse making stuff...while we NEVER HAVE? If some woman verbally attacked me with this crap, Id have to shake my head and say "whats her problem"

 

[HopefulFaithfulMI]

I just read thru the except, and what I got from it is information & encouragement.
'Men are like this, and they have to struggle against the natural tendency, and this is how you can help them.'

I didn't see excuses, just a reassuring note that your husband/guy does look, but where he goes from there is up to him, and is helped by his relationship with God, and church and perhaps an accountability partner.

And yes, if I'm going to gender-generalize, I do remember past hurts. I try to keep them in the past, but sometimes they get back out.
faith

 

[Lyndie]

The book may not have the word 'normal' in there. However, anyone can see that with the survey and all the comments from the men and the writer herself, that it is a 'normal behavior' for men.

Finally, realize that God doesn’t make mistakes. One of
my closest friends relates that when she was a new bride at
twenty-three years old, she was very shaken up when she
discovered that her sweet husband had this thought-life
issue. She cried out to God, “Why did You create him like
this?” And then she realized: God did create him like this,
and He said His creation was good. We may be fallible, but
we are created the way we are for a purpose.
••God did create him like this. And He said His
creation was good.
And God has something good in mind for you—and for
the man you love.
Keeper of the Visual Rolodex | 135

The word normal isn't there, but it is implied. Did God create me to be an alcoholic?????

 

[chaz345]

I just read thru the except, and what I got from it is information & encouragement.
'Men are like this, and they have to struggle against the natural tendency, and this is how you can help them.'

I didn't see excuses, just a reassuring note that your husband/guy does look, but where he goes from there is up to him, and is helped by his relationship with God, and church and perhaps an accountability partner.

And yes, if I'm going to gender-generalize, I do remember past hurts. I try to keep them in the past, but sometimes they get back out.
faith

Thank you for restoring my faith that it is possible for a female to have basic reading comprehension skills.