The Words of Jesus...

[tucker58]

The words of Jesus in the Christian Bible, "Where do you personally find a problem with them?"

anybody?

love,

tuck

 

[tucker58]

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Do you have a problem with what Jesus is quoted as saying in the Christian Bible? Just His words.

anybody?

love,

tuck

 

[keith99]

I can find quite a few, but I'm only an agnostic, I'll leave citing chapter and verse to the athiests.

Hint, look for words that would scare you half to death in the mouth of Jim Jones.

 

[quatona]

The words of Jesus in the Christian Bible, "Where do you personally find a problem with them?"

Right from the top of my head I can´t think of any that I couldn´t manage to interprete in a way that I could agree with.

 

[The Nihilist]

I've never in my life met a christian who followed the words of Jesus. Y'all are more into Paul, probably because it's easier. He doesn't make you love your enemies or not judge people. He doesn't even tell you to be poor. He just tells you to agree with him, kick out anyone who doesn't get in line, and not worry your pretty head about it. Charming.

 

[jayem]

Matt 12:30

Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. (ESV)

An objectionable passage to me. It says that if you don't accept Jesus, you're not just mistaken, misguided, and unsaved, you're an adversary. So it follows from this that non-Christians are enemies of God. We see this attitude all too often in posts by some Christian members here (usually those less theologically sophisticated.) But it's not a logical conclusion. Not believing in Jesus's divinity, doesn't mean one is opposed to all of Jesus's moral teachings. Many of Jesus's ethical pronouncements are excellent, and quite universal. But this exclusivist attitude is destructive. I think it's contributed historically to persecution of non-believers, and heterodox Christians alike. You don't see this "if-you're-not-with-me-you're-against-me" attitude in Socrates, or the Buddha, or other great moral teachers.

 

[tucker58]

Matt 12:30

Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. (ESV)

An objectionable passage to me. It says that if you don't accept Jesus, you're not just mistaken, misguided, and unsaved, you're an adversary. So it follows from this that non-Christians are enemies of God. We see this attitude all too often in posts by some Christian members here (usually those less theologically sophisticated.) But it's not a logical conclusion. Not believing in Jesus's divinity, doesn't mean one is opposed to all of Jesus's moral teachings. Many of Jesus's ethical pronouncements are excellent, and quite universal. But this exclusivist attitude is destructive. I think it's contributed historically to persecution of non-believers, and heterodox Christians alike. You don't see this "if-you're-not-with-me-you're-against-me" attitude in Socrates, or the Buddha, or other great moral teachers.

Hi Jayem and welcome to this topic! I love reading what you post, you are so level headed. Jayem your point is an interesting point. So I guess the first question would be, "What did He mean by 'against Me'?" Is one personally against Jesus Himself or is one against those that claim to be His followers? The most common complaint that I hear from those that are anti Christian is that they do not like Christians as people. And most Christians that are looking for something else as a way to seek God also seem to be saying that they are having problems with Christians as people.

So I guess the question is, "Is the problem Jesus or is the problem those that claim to be His followers?" And that is what I am attempting to explore with this topic.

love,

tuck

 

[tucker58]

I can find quite a few, but I'm only an agnostic, I'll leave citing chapter and verse to the athiests.

Hint, look for words that would scare you half to death in the mouth of Jim Jones.

very well said Keith! Old Jim and others more or less like him create the possibility that Satan could be nesting in the Christian Churches passing himself and his folk off as Christians. Jimmy and Tammy Lee Baker are another example of that kind of possibility. The problem is how do you separate the sheep out from the wolves and the coyotes? It is an interesting challenge, especially when the wolves are in charge of the flock.

Sometimes involving the non religious in an religious problem can be productive because they have a different/outside view of things.

love,

tuck

 

[jayem]

Hi Jayem and welcome to this topic! I love reading what you post, you are so level headed.

Gee, thanks for the testimonial.

So I guess the first question would be, "What did He mean by 'against Me'?" Is one personally against Jesus Himself or is one against those that claim to be His followers?

That is a good question. I've studied a bit of theology, but I don't recall any exigesis on this passage. Is there any consensus by NT scholars on what Jesus means here? I guess my personal objection would be to those who think that anyone not accepting Jesus is evil. Matt 12:30, taken at face value, equates non-belief with being anti-God. And being anti-God implies being wicked. So the issue I have is making a moral judgement about me simply because I don't accept Jesus as God and saviour.

And getting back to exclusivity, how could I forget the clearest demonstration of all?

I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:6 (ESV)

I know it's a cornerstone of Christianity, but this absolutist concept of Jesus as the one and only way to salvation is deleterious. It promotes a sense of superiority (unwarranted, IMO) among believers, and it leads to conflict with non-believers. And this goes for other religions that also make claims of being the exclusive path to God.

 

[tucker58]

Gee, thanks for the testimonial.



That is a good question. I've studied a bit of theology, but I don't recall any exigesis on this passage. Is there any consensus by NT scholars on what Jesus means here? I guess my personal objection would be to those who think that anyone not accepting Jesus is evil. Matt 12:30, taken at face value, equates non-belief with being anti-God. And being anti-God implies being wicked. So the issue I have is making a moral judgement about me simply because I don't accept Jesus as God and saviour.

And getting back to exclusivity, how could I forget the clearest demonstration of all?

I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:6 (ESV)

I know it's a cornerstone of Christianity, but this absolutist concept of Jesus as the one and only way to salvation is deleterious. It promotes a sense of superiority (unwarranted, IMO) among believers, and it leads to conflict with non-believers. And this goes for other religions that also make claims of being the exclusive path to God.

I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:6 (ESV)

The question now is "What does "Me" mean?"

Jesus claimed that he came to replace the "Old Law" and that His two commandments were, "Love God with all of your mind, body, heart, and soul." and, "Love your neighbor as yourself". Other than that as history proclaiming the coming of Jesus, that is all that is left of the "Old Testament" generally speaking. The Old Testament was God's word before Jesus as a gift to the Jewish folk. The New Testament is something totally different as a gift to those that follow Jesus as the word of God and the new system of things. From there, "What did Jesus actually say?" as a gift from those that were there and His followers?

Jayem you are not a Christian, "What was Jesus' mandate to those that are Christians in your own opinion of course ?

love,

tuck

 

[Exiledoomsayer]

Just checking here but..

Is this entire thread basically going to be..

personA: I object to phrase X
Tuck: Maybe phrase X does not mean Z, perhaps it means Y.

Rinse and repeat?

Cause im sure you could interprete anything to mean something unobjectional if your creative enough. And id have to agree with this poster and call it a thread.

Right from the top of my head I can´t think of any that I couldn´t manage to interprete in a way that I could agree with.

 

[Eudaimonist]

The words of Jesus in the Christian Bible, "Where do you personally find a problem with them?"

Mainly, to note that they are just words.

They are presented as absolute truth, but they are just words to be carefully considered as if anyone had spoken them, even your if your next door neighbor had spoken them. It shouldn't matter who speaks them.

This is how it should be with all philosophy. It shouldn't matter who says what. All that matters is the message and how well it is supported with argument and evidence.

That said, I also have a problem with:

I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:6 (ESV)

At least with how this quote is usually interpreted. Of course, I don't particularly care about "coming to the Father", since I don't believe that this entity exists. But this exclusionary attitude does leave a bad taste in my mouth. I don't believe that non-Christian religions are necessarily any worse for people interested in realization of godhead than Christianity, and may even be better in some cases.

I have a problem with the supernatural claims in the Bible. Also, the emphasis on faith and altruism seems overdone to me. And the anti-worldliness seems like an overreaction. I'm sure it's all well-meaning, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

There are plenty of worthy ethical messages missing from his words, and that bothers me as well. I would like to have seen a stern anti-slavery message. Support for women's liberation might have been nice. And I would have liked to have seen more of the carpenter who appreciates the value of craft and creativity, instead of just spiritual carpentry (although that is a nice metaphor). Alas, many worthwhile ethical messages simply aren't there.

Plus, Jesus often seems like a wandering Greek Cynic sage, and I have some problems with Cynicism.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[tucker58]

Just checking here but..

Is this entire thread basically going to be..

personA: I object to phrase X
Tuck: Maybe phrase X does not mean Z, perhaps it means Y.

Rinse and repeat?

Cause im sure you could interprete anything to mean something unobjectional if your creative enough. And id have to agree with this poster and call it a thread.

No I am not going to attempt to second guess the words of Jesus, they mean what they mean. And Exile, you have made it perfectly clear how you feel about the words of Jesus all is well.

love,

tuck

 

[tucker58]

Mainly, to note that they are just words.

They are presented as absolute truth, but they are just words to be carefully considered as if anyone had spoken them, even your if your next door neighbor had spoken them. It shouldn't matter who speaks them.

This is how it should be with all philosophy. It shouldn't matter who says what. All that matters is the message and how well it is supported with argument and evidence.

That said, I also have a problem with:

I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:6 (ESV)

At least with how this quote is usually interpreted. Of course, I don't particularly care about "coming to the Father", since I don't believe that this entity exists. But this exclusionary attitude does leave a bad taste in my mouth. I don't believe that non-Christian religions are necessarily any worse for people interested in realization of godhead than Christianity, and may even be better in some cases.

I have a problem with the supernatural claims in the Bible. Also, the emphasis on faith and altruism seems overdone to me. And the anti-worldliness seems like an overreaction. I'm sure it's all well-meaning, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

There are plenty of worthy ethical messages missing from his words, and that bothers me as well. I would like to have seen a stern anti-slavery message. Support for women's liberation might have been nice. And I would have liked to have seen more of the carpenter who appreciates the value of craft and creativity, instead of just spiritual carpentry (although that is a nice metaphor). Alas, many worthwhile ethical messages simply aren't there.

Plus, Jesus often seems like a wandering Greek Cynic sage, and I have some problems with Cynicism.


eudaimonia,

Mark

That is what I wanted to know. Generally I hear people saying that Christians are this and Christians are that and it is usually referring to something negative. So I was just curious about how you guys felt about the words of the person that Christianity is suppose to be based on. Is all.

love,

tuck

 

[Received]

I've never in my life met a christian who followed the words of Jesus. Y'all are more into Paul, probably because it's easier. He doesn't make you love your enemies or not judge people. He doesn't even tell you to be poor. He just tells you to agree with him, kick out anyone who doesn't get in line, and not worry your pretty head about it. Charming.

C'mon, it's all about grace. What is grace? A theological term that allows you to be stone-cold blind to your own moral blemishes while shouting divine mercy as an excuse (although denying that it is an excuse), while choosing completely arbitrary negligible moral parts you don't like in others and consequently driving them into the ground without mercy.

I mean, who wouldn't want to be a Christian?

 

[Lily_Among_Thorns]

Matt 12:30

Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. (ESV)

An objectionable passage to me. It says that if you don't accept Jesus, you're not just mistaken, misguided, and unsaved, you're an adversary. So it follows from this that non-Christians are enemies of God. We see this attitude all too often in posts by some Christian members here (usually those less theologically sophisticated.) But it's not a logical conclusion. Not believing in Jesus's divinity, doesn't mean one is opposed to all of Jesus's moral teachings. Many of Jesus's ethical pronouncements are excellent, and quite universal. But this exclusivist attitude is destructive. I think it's contributed historically to persecution of non-believers, and heterodox Christians alike. You don't see this "if-you're-not-with-me-you're-against-me" attitude in Socrates, or the Buddha, or other great moral teachers.

And yet everything is in accordance to the word of God, his word.

Hence you are scattered and not drawn towards him. He also came here to cast division; and therefore, you are divided from your Christian brethren. Everything is in accordance to the word of God.

Let the wheat and tares grow together and upon harvest day the tares will be known. Hence, the world as it is--divided from Christ, all in accordance to the word of God.

Should you be offended? Yes, because God has not drawn you to himself. And the word remains evident in its judgment.