The words of Jesus in the Christian Bible, "Where do you personally find a problem with them?"
anybody?
love,
tuck
anybody?
love,
tuck
Right from the top of my head I can´t think of any that I couldn´t manage to interprete in a way that I could agree with.The words of Jesus in the Christian Bible, "Where do you personally find a problem with them?"
Matt 12:30
Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. (ESV)
An objectionable passage to me. It says that if you don't accept Jesus, you're not just mistaken, misguided, and unsaved, you're an adversary. So it follows from this that non-Christians are enemies of God. We see this attitude all too often in posts by some Christian members here (usually those less theologically sophisticated.) But it's not a logical conclusion. Not believing in Jesus's divinity, doesn't mean one is opposed to all of Jesus's moral teachings. Many of Jesus's ethical pronouncements are excellent, and quite universal. But this exclusivist attitude is destructive. I think it's contributed historically to persecution of non-believers, and heterodox Christians alike. You don't see this "if-you're-not-with-me-you're-against-me" attitude in Socrates, or the Buddha, or other great moral teachers.
I can find quite a few, but I'm only an agnostic, I'll leave citing chapter and verse to the athiests.
Hint, look for words that would scare you half to death in the mouth of Jim Jones.
Hi Jayem and welcome to this topic! I love reading what you post, you are so level headed.
So I guess the first question would be, "What did He mean by 'against Me'?" Is one personally against Jesus Himself or is one against those that claim to be His followers?
Gee, thanks for the testimonial.
That is a good question. I've studied a bit of theology, but I don't recall any exigesis on this passage. Is there any consensus by NT scholars on what Jesus means here? I guess my personal objection would be to those who think that anyone not accepting Jesus is evil. Matt 12:30, taken at face value, equates non-belief with being anti-God. And being anti-God implies being wicked. So the issue I have is making a moral judgement about me simply because I don't accept Jesus as God and saviour.
And getting back to exclusivity, how could I forget the clearest demonstration of all?
I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:6 (ESV)
I know it's a cornerstone of Christianity, but this absolutist concept of Jesus as the one and only way to salvation is deleterious. It promotes a sense of superiority (unwarranted, IMO) among believers, and it leads to conflict with non-believers. And this goes for other religions that also make claims of being the exclusive path to God.
quatona said:Right from the top of my head I can´t think of any that I couldn´t manage to interprete in a way that I could agree with.
The words of Jesus in the Christian Bible, "Where do you personally find a problem with them?"
Just checking here but..
Is this entire thread basically going to be..
personA: I object to phrase X
Tuck: Maybe phrase X does not mean Z, perhaps it means Y.
Rinse and repeat?
Cause im sure you could interprete anything to mean something unobjectional if your creative enough. And id have to agree with this poster and call it a thread.
Mainly, to note that they are just words.
They are presented as absolute truth, but they are just words to be carefully considered as if anyone had spoken them, even your if your next door neighbor had spoken them. It shouldn't matter who speaks them.
This is how it should be with all philosophy. It shouldn't matter who says what. All that matters is the message and how well it is supported with argument and evidence.
That said, I also have a problem with:
I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:6 (ESV)
At least with how this quote is usually interpreted. Of course, I don't particularly care about "coming to the Father", since I don't believe that this entity exists. But this exclusionary attitude does leave a bad taste in my mouth. I don't believe that non-Christian religions are necessarily any worse for people interested in realization of godhead than Christianity, and may even be better in some cases.
I have a problem with the supernatural claims in the Bible. Also, the emphasis on faith and altruism seems overdone to me. And the anti-worldliness seems like an overreaction. I'm sure it's all well-meaning, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
There are plenty of worthy ethical messages missing from his words, and that bothers me as well. I would like to have seen a stern anti-slavery message. Support for women's liberation might have been nice. And I would have liked to have seen more of the carpenter who appreciates the value of craft and creativity, instead of just spiritual carpentry (although that is a nice metaphor). Alas, many worthwhile ethical messages simply aren't there.
Plus, Jesus often seems like a wandering Greek Cynic sage, and I have some problems with Cynicism.
eudaimonia,
Mark
The Nihilist said:I've never in my life met a christian who followed the words of Jesus. Y'all are more into Paul, probably because it's easier. He doesn't make you love your enemies or not judge people. He doesn't even tell you to be poor. He just tells you to agree with him, kick out anyone who doesn't get in line, and not worry your pretty head about it. Charming.
Matt 12:30
Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. (ESV)
An objectionable passage to me. It says that if you don't accept Jesus, you're not just mistaken, misguided, and unsaved, you're an adversary. So it follows from this that non-Christians are enemies of God. We see this attitude all too often in posts by some Christian members here (usually those less theologically sophisticated.) But it's not a logical conclusion. Not believing in Jesus's divinity, doesn't mean one is opposed to all of Jesus's moral teachings. Many of Jesus's ethical pronouncements are excellent, and quite universal. But this exclusivist attitude is destructive. I think it's contributed historically to persecution of non-believers, and heterodox Christians alike. You don't see this "if-you're-not-with-me-you're-against-me" attitude in Socrates, or the Buddha, or other great moral teachers.