Atheism as a Faith: The (Hopefully) Final Debate

Apr 24, 2010
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No, it didn't require research. I was simply reading. Probably a blog. I haven't done any research on the topic of atheism. Why do you have to nit pick everything? And why oh why do I respond? I really should be ashamed of myself.

Because thats how you find the truth. You nitpick until you find it. And I have thoroughly studied the topic of Atheism. I have done my share of research at places such as www.infidels.org and www.positiveatheism.org . I have studied the Christ Myth in detail. I have studied Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, Michael Martin, Tom Harpur, Peter Gandy and Timothy Freke, Acharya S, ad nauseam.
 
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xDenax

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Because thats how you find the truth. You nitpick until you find it. And I have thoroughly studied the topic of Atheism. I have done my share of research at places such as www.infidels.org and www.positiveatheism.org . I have studied the Christ Myth in detail. I have studied Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, Michael Martin, Tom Harpur, Peter Gandy and Timothy Freke, Acharya S, ad nauseam.

I am so happy for you.
 
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I'm working on Heschel and Mussar. I'll get around to Dawkins one of these days.

I have studied Dawkins and refutations of him......Meh. I can save you the trouble if you want. Basically the world has no purpose, and humans are useless.
 
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Wicked Willow

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One, a knowledge there is no god.
That discounts pretty much every agnostic/"weak" atheist. (And yes, they do exist, no matter how hard you try to deny it.)

Two, Evolution/Naturalism is true.
Evolution is not an "atheist-thing". Most Christians around the world have no problem whatsoever with accepting evolution just as they accepted heliocentrism. Creationism is a specifically American oddity, possibly owed to the fact that Europe exported its religious extremist fringe to the western colonies.)

Three, morality is relative.
Oh, so Objectivists aren't really atheists? Quick, send them a memo!

Four, truth is relative.
See point three. You'll find that some other atheistic world views also do not match this criterion.
 
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razeontherock said:
Anyway I don't like or accept any of the definitions of Faith in the OP. Is there an atheist who is not a proponent of Ev theory? I think atheism has a much more specific worldview than any care to admit. Is there an atheist that's not a materialist?
You could form a list of of things which may fit a general description of an atheist in the western world, but which are not related to lacking belief in a god. All you're actually doing is forming a crude profile.

Is there an atheist who is not a proponent of Ev theory? Atheism existed long before TOE, even today I'm sure there must be many atheists who could simply respond that they don't know.
Not knowing is perfectly valid, atheism doesn't necessarily require answers to every question.
In any case, accepting that science, while imperfect, is the best method of learning about our world is not just common among atheists, but among all educated people including almost every variety of theist.

Is there an atheist that's not a materialist? Sure, visit Japan. Approx 65% atheist and most hold shinto beliefs.
 
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Wicked Willow

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It's weird that atheism and evolution are always linked in the minds of American Christians!

The vast majority of Christians in the world has not the slightest trouble with modern biology. Creationism is pretty much a specifically American oddity, and laughed off as a lunatic fringe phenomenon in the rest of the world.
 
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Eudaimonist

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One, a knowledge there is no god.

I don't claim to know that there is no god. Rather, what I do know does not include any knowledge of gods, and has no need for gods. My worldview is godless.

Two, Evolution/Naturalism is true.

That's a recent development in the history of the West. It is certainly not intrinsic to atheism.

Three, morality is relative.

I'm not a moral relativist. I wouldn't say, for instance, that just because a culture holds X as a moral value, then X is what members of that culture ought to pursue.

I view the requirements of human life as an objective standard of value, with which one may judge the desirability of various values, virtues, moral rules, etc.

Four, truth is relative.

Relative to what? Reality is the standard of truth.

These are fundamental to the system of Atheism.

Hardly! And there is no single "system of Atheism". There are many atheistic systems.

Purpose is hard one usually for Atheists to grasp, as to where this comes from, so thats usually attempted to be done away with too.

I find purpose easy to grasp. I view human nature as having the natural purpose of personal flourishing in society.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Eudaimonist

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Is there an atheist that's not a materialist?

Are you referring to a Marxist style reductive materialism? I'm certainly not a materialist in that vein.

I don't deny the existence of conscious awareness. I see both mind and materiality as aspects of the single human entity. It's true that I don't believe in realms of consciousness or "souls" that exist separately from physicality in some dualistic sense, but I'm certainly not a physical monist who believes that mind is merely "an illusion".

I also believe that human beings have the power to make genuine choices, and that places me squarely outside the implied determinism of reductive materialism.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Atheism requires no faith because to any religious question an atheist can simply respond "I don't know".
Naw, that's pretty much the textbook definition of agnostic.

atheism: a cover for depression,
Now that's just insulting. Same to you buddy.

I tend to think everyone has faith in something... they may trust and have faith in factless theories from scientists.
Not quite. People with factless theories shouldn't be called scientists. Whenever I hear about a study or a report, I don't have faith that it's true, I have hope that it's true and will stand up to review. Likewise, I function with an assumption that things like gravity and sunrise will continue to act like they have all my life, but that's not faith. Those things really could change in an apocalyptic fashion.

I'm still adament that it takes more faith to be an athiest though.
And I'll still disagree.

they have faith that there is no afterlife
Well, no. There doesn't appear to be any reason to believe in an afterlife, so I don't. What items people have brought forth as reasons to believe in such a thing have not stood up to inspection and tests.
Speaking of which:
I heard of a Christian school proposal refused by the ministry of Education
Citation or it didn't happen the way you say it did.

Did you ever see the south park episode on Atheism? They were fighting over the name of their club!
Did you see any of the episodes involving Christianity? Hilarious!
"Atheism" is not a worldview that one can convert to.
I think this is a matter of opinion.
Actually, I'd agree with you here. There is certainly a rational worldview that includes atheism. And there IS sort of an atheist movement, just like there has always been, but now they're not being burned at the stake or being called communists. (unless they support Obama)


Nope you're wrong. See - First Church of Atheism
Yeah, I'm not really part of that. So there's no organization here.

If I want to, I can become an ordained minister at the first church of Atheism. How about that.
Yup. A friend of mine got ordained by some universal church or something so he could perform the ceremony to get me and the wife married. It was fantastic. But this whole "ordained" thing is priced accordingly: $0.00.

Naturalism is the same thing as Atheism
Wut? Naw man. All baptists are Christians, but not all Christians are baptists. Sets and sub-sets. Ya get it?
Except you're butchering the definition of naturalism as well...

Evolution is a part of the doctrine of Atheism. It goes hand in hand.
Aye, it does. As as part of the atheist worldview, the religion part. For those who hold some sort of atheistic religion. But as for those who just hold the atheist belief, it doesn't say anything about evolution. Really, this was covered in the first post.
 
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razeontherock

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It's weird that atheism and evolution are always linked in the minds of American Christians!

The vast majority of Christians in the world has not the slightest trouble with modern biology.

This does not logically follow. Modern biology has not seen biotic primordial slime develop into modern man. We've seen how many generations of virus and bacteria under the microscope? And for all the mutations we've observed, bacterium are still bacterium - and finches are still finches.
 
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tucker58

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This does not logically follow. Modern biology has not seen biotic primordial slime develop into modern man. We've seen how many generations of virus and bacteria under the microscope? And for all the mutations we've observed, bacterium are still bacterium - and finches are still finches.

Finches, were originally from the bird side of the dinosaur reality. It has been proven that a significant amount of the dinosaur reality was really big birds.

Even today, the finches came from something else because life is extremely adaptable. If Nature kills off an old species one or more new species show up to occupy the space of the old species.

As an example, most of the disease strains that mankind is dealing with, in today's world, did not exist before "antibiotic counter measures" were developed by mankind and medical science. They did not come off of the Ark. Or We all would be immune to them.

love,

tuck
 
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And for all the mutations we've observed, bacterium are still bacterium
Ah, but we HAVE seen E-coli turn into something that isn't E-coli. See Lenski's experiment. And it came out of it's own natural mutation and genetic drift.

And if you take a broader view, we are currently seeing the split between donkeys and horses. That can still breed, but the offspring is (quite usually) infertile.

And there's no good way to explain why whales would have hip bones unless they walked on land at one point.

But this is all for the CrEvo thread, if you really want to chat about it, go over there.
 
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razeontherock

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I have heard of atheist who don't feel that Evolution is the best description of our current world.

Atheist who are not materialistic? Sure!!!

Materialism and being materialistic are 2 different things, but perhaps a better term for me to have used would've been naturalistic?

So what is this atheists better description of life?
 
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razeontherock

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"Is there an atheist that's not a materialist?"

Me. I think that any attempt to classify/define stuff as either material or - what was the opposite again? immaterial - is ... ahem. ;) Likewise for natural/supernatural.

Call it neutral monism, if you wish.

Sounds like "mony mony" to me. In other words, too hokey and over-played to be worth 2 cents and I don't buy it. I betcha your atheism is supported by firmly believing (or maybe just high skepticism) there is no such thing as supernatural anything. Lose too much of that aspect and you lose atheism and are agnostic, although I think that also encompasses those that just don't care.

How many of those do you think are in hell?
 
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Lord Emsworth

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Sounds like "mony mony" to me. In other words, too hokey and over-played to be worth 2 cents and I don't buy it.

You never heard of monism?

I betcha your atheism is supported by firmly believing (or maybe just high skepticism) there is no such thing as supernatural anything.

Of couse I don't believe there is a supernatural anything. I thought that should have been clear from my post. Although, in a sense, I make a much, much stronger statement. Mind, in a sense. In a different sense, it is all the same old, same old. ;)


Lose too much of that aspect and you lose atheism and are agnostic,

Really?

although I think that also encompasses those that just don't care.

How many of those do you think are in hell?

52.789
 
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Wicked Willow

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This does not logically follow. Modern biology has not seen biotic primordial slime develop into modern man. We've seen how many generations of virus and bacteria under the microscope? And for all the mutations we've observed, bacterium are still bacterium - and finches are still finches.
How does your post relate to what I wrote?
Does it counter the fact that Creationism is a specifically American oddity? That the vast majority of Christians has no beef with evolution?
No.

As for your arguments: we could turn this into a debate on evolution, and I could definitely teach you a thing or two, but
a) this isn't the thread OR the sub-forum for that, and
b) past experience has taught me that Creationists mostly do not *want* to learn anything new in that regard. They feel much more comfortable sticking to the sort of garbled half-truths and twisted facts that are the hallmark of creation "science".

At the end of the day, evolution is still one of the most extensively tested AND substantiated scientific theories in existence, and of fundamental importance to various scientific disciplines, all of which show unequivocally that it's more than just a shaky hypothesis. There is no controversy beyond a very small circle of religious fringe fundamentalists, who simply cannot cope with the fact that their Bronze Age myths do not quite add up with what has been found and discovered during the last two centuries.
 
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Eudaimonist

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Sounds like "mony mony" to me. In other words, too hokey and over-played to be worth 2 cents and I don't buy it.

Have you heard of dualism? Monism is opposed, for instance, to dualism. It's a very useful word. I don't believe in neutral monism, but it's somewhat close to what I believe.

I betcha your atheism is supported by firmly believing (or maybe just high skepticism) there is no such thing as supernatural anything. Lose too much of that aspect and you lose atheism and are agnostic, although I think that also encompasses those that just don't care.

That wouldn't be true in my case. My naturalism is supported by a rejection of supernaturalism, but even if I accepted supernaturalism, I would still be an atheist without further revision to my worldview.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Greg1234

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This does not logically follow. Modern biology has not seen biotic primordial slime develop into modern man. We've seen how many generations of virus and bacteria under the microscope? And for all the mutations we've observed, bacterium are still bacterium - and finches are still finches.
:thumbsup:. Well said.
 
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