1Timothy 2:4 by CH Spurgeon

[mlqurgw]

I am having trouble remembering the scripture where Paul said that God doesn't desire anyone to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth or God doesn't desire everyone to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.

However, I do recall 1 Timothy 2:4 that clearly states he desires all people to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.

You must have missed Romans 9, Eph. 1. and many other passages.

 

[mlqurgw]

So in the same way anyone at anytime can look to Christ and be saved correct? I guess the thing is even though the Serpent that Moses held up would heal the people they still had to look in order to be healed. If they didnt look they perished.

Seems like the Serpent was enough to heal them but they had to do their part which was to LOOK.

Anyone who needs to look can. Those who weren't bitten didn't need to look.

 

[DD2008]

You must have missed Romans 9, Eph. 1. and many other passages.

He never said God didn't desire to save anyone. That would have clearly contradicted the direct statement of 1 Tim2:4. A major rule in the law of non contradiction is that one may never contradict a difinitive statement. 1 Tim 2:4 is definitive.

 

[RobertZ]

Anyone who needs to look can. Those who weren't bitten didn't need to look.

But we were all bitten by the fall of Adam correct?

 

[DD2008]

Here is an interesting Chart on soteriological beliefs. I fall into catagory 4 or 5 or in between those somewhere.

Ron is somewhere around 1 or 2.


Calvinism Chart

In Theology on January 9, 2010 at 3:50 am

1. Hyper-Calvinism
Beliefs: God is the author of sin and man has no responsibility before God. The Gospel should only preached to the elect. i.e. duty faith. and anti-missionary Belief in the five points is a prerequisite for true salvation, also known as Neo-Gnostic Calvinism. Proponents: Joseph Hussey John Skepp and some English primitive Baptists.​

2. Ultra High Calvinism
Beliefs: That the elect are in some sense eternally justified. A denial of: The Well– Meant Offer; Common Grace; and God having any love for the non-elect. Proponents: John Gill, some ministers in the Protestant Reformed Church of America
3. High Calvinism
Beliefs: That God in no sense desires to save the reprobate, Most deny the Well-Meant Offer. Supralapsarian viewing God’s decrees. All hold to limited atonement. Most believe in particular grace and see the atonement as sufficient only for the elect. Proponents: Theodore Beza, Gordon Clark, Arthur Pink
4. Moderate Calvinism
Beliefs: That God does in some sense desires to save the reprobate, Infralapsarian in viewing God’s decrees. Affirms Common Grace. Proponents: John Calvin (some argue that he was a High-Calvinist), John Murray, RL Dabney
5. Low Calvinism
Beliefs: That Christ died for all in a legal sense, so one can speak of Christ dying for the non-elect. That God has two distinct wills. Affirms the Well-Meant Offer and Common Grace, Proponents: Amyraldrians , RT Kendal
6. Lutheranism
Beliefs: That Calvinist over emphasize God Sovereignty over man’s responsibility. That Christ died for all in legal sense, that some are predestined on to life but none are predestined onto death. That the sacraments are means of grace regardless of one’s faith. Proponents: Martin Luther, Philipp Melanchthon, Rod Rosenbladt
7. American Baptist
Beliefs: That God has given man libertarian freedom, that God’s knowledge of future is based on His foreknowledge. That Christ died for all and desires all to be saved. Once a persons believes the gospel, he is eternally secure. Rejects Calvinism, some would even call it heretical. Proponents: Jerry Falwell, Adrian Rogers
8. Arminianism
Beliefs: That God has given man libertarian freedom, that God’s knowledge of future is solely based on His foreknowledge. That Christ died for all and desires all to be saved. A person can fall from the state of grace i.e. lose ones salvation, since it is our free will that chooses Christ at conversion. Proponents: Jacob Arminius, John Wesley some Methodists
copyright Rev Jonathan James Goundry

Link: Calvinism Chart « Feileadh Mor

 

[mlqurgw]

But we were all bitten by the fall of Adam correct?

Yes but not all know that they have been bitten.

 

[RobertZ]

Yes but not all know that they have been bitten.

Hmmm...makes sense. So a person cannot know they have been bitten but by the Holy Spirit making it known to them?

 

[mlqurgw]

He never said God didn't desire to save anyone. That would have clearly contradicted the direct statement of 1 Tim2:4. A major rule in the law of non contradiction is that one may never contradict a difinitive statement. 1 Tim 2:4 is definitive.

DD I am done. I told you I am not going to debate these things. Believe what you will and call me what you will. You have gotten to the point of grasping at straws. Hang on as long as you can to what you think is truth. I will be around if you ever desire what I have to say.

 

[mlqurgw]

Hmmm...makes sense. So a person cannot know they have been bitten but by the Holy Spirit making it known to them?

Yep.

 

[mlqurgw]

Here is an interesting Chart on soteriological beliefs. I fall into catagory 4 or 5 or in between those somewhere.

Ron is somewhere around 1 or 2.


Calvinism Chart

In Theology on January 9, 2010 at 3:50 am

1. Hyper-Calvinism
Beliefs: God is the author of sin and man has no responsibility before God. The Gospel should only preached to the elect. i.e. duty faith. and anti-missionary Belief in the five points is a prerequisite for true salvation, also known as Neo-Gnostic Calvinism. Proponents: Joseph Hussey John Skepp and some English primitive Baptists.​

2. Ultra High Calvinism
Beliefs: That the elect are in some sense eternally justified. A denial of: The Well– Meant Offer; Common Grace; and God having any love for the non-elect. Proponents: John Gill, some ministers in the Protestant Reformed Church of America
3. High Calvinism
Beliefs: That God in no sense desires to save the reprobate, Most deny the Well-Meant Offer. Supralapsarian viewing God’s decrees. All hold to limited atonement. Most believe in particular grace and see the atonement as sufficient only for the elect. Proponents: Theodore Beza, Gordon Clark, Arthur Pink
4. Moderate Calvinism
Beliefs: That God does in some sense desires to save the reprobate, Infralapsarian in viewing God’s decrees. Affirms Common Grace. Proponents: John Calvin (some argue that he was a High-Calvinist), John Murray, RL Dabney
5. Low Calvinism
Beliefs: That Christ died for all in a legal sense, so one can speak of Christ dying for the non-elect. That God has two distinct wills. Affirms the Well-Meant Offer and Common Grace, Proponents: Amyraldrians , RT Kendal
6. Lutheranism
Beliefs: That Calvinist over emphasize God Sovereignty over man’s responsibility. That Christ died for all in legal sense, that some are predestined on to life but none are predestined onto death. That the sacraments are means of grace regardless of one’s faith. Proponents: Martin Luther, Philipp Melanchthon, Rod Rosenbladt
7. American Baptist
Beliefs: That God has given man libertarian freedom, that God’s knowledge of future is based on His foreknowledge. That Christ died for all and desires all to be saved. Once a persons believes the gospel, he is eternally secure. Rejects Calvinism, some would even call it heretical. Proponents: Jerry Falwell, Adrian Rogers
8. Arminianism
Beliefs: That God has given man libertarian freedom, that God’s knowledge of future is solely based on His foreknowledge. That Christ died for all and desires all to be saved. A person can fall from the state of grace i.e. lose ones salvation, since it is our free will that chooses Christ at conversion. Proponents: Jacob Arminius, John Wesley some Methodists
copyright Rev Jonathan James Goundry

Link: Calvinism Chart « Feileadh Mor

Actually I fall in between 2 and 3.

 

[faceofbear]

So then only the elect are in Adam and need saving since the word "all, world," etc. all apply to only the elect? So, no one, apart from the elect, are sinners?

The problem is that no one questions that world does indeed mean world unless it pertains to election.

There is no contradiction.

God has a general call for all to be saved, but an effectual call for the elect. Just as many are called but few are chosen (Matthew 22:14). If you're saying, "by many," it only pertains to the elect, then apparently some of the elect aren't chosen.

 

[mlqurgw]

So then only the elect are in Adam and need saving since the word "all, world," etc. all apply to only the elect? So, no one, apart from the elect, are sinners?

The problem is that no one questions that world does indeed mean world unless it pertains to election.

There is no contradiction.

God has a general call for all to be saved, but an effectual call for the elect. Just as many are called but few are chosen. If you're saying only the elect are called then apparently the elect aren't chosen.

Please don't put words in my mouth. I don't deny the word world but as it is used it never means all men without exception. All are sinners but not all understand or believe that they are. Most think they sin but also think that there is some good in them to recommend them to God. Most think that God will weigh their good against their bad and hopefully the good will outweigh the bad. I don't deny all men are sinners I deny by the Scriptures and experience that all men are saved. Nor do I deny the general call but I do deny that it is God calling. I call all men to believe knowing full well that only the elect will. Like most who do not wish to bow to the truth you try to twist it into something that is ridiculous and paint it in as bad a light as you can come up with. Sorry but I ain't falling for it.

 

[Hentenza]

This whole argument is just an intellectual exercise, nothing more. No one knows who the elect are and scripture never says that anyone that calls on the Lord will be turned back. Therefore, we know that we must share the gospel with all that will hear. We know that we have to make disciples so that they can make disciples and continue the work of the Lord. At the end, all that believed and trusted in the Lord will have eternal life and those that did not will perish. God will sort them out. That is the simple truth.

 

[mlqurgw]

This whole argument is just an intellectual exercise, nothing more. No one knows who the elect are and scripture never says that anyone that calls on the Lord will be turned back. Therefore, we know that we must share the gospel with all that will hear. We know that we have to make disciples so that they can make disciples and continue the work of the Lord. At the end, all that believed and trusted in the Lord will have eternal life and those that did not will perish. God will sort them out. That is the simple truth.

I disagree because I believe the glory of God rests in these things. Not only that I believe that the souls of men are at stake. No one is saved believing in a false God or a false Christ. Malachi asks the question will a man rob God and it ain't got anything to do with tithing. It has to do with polluting the worship of God by making Him something He isn't.

 

[98cwitr]

Saying Lord Lord is not the same as calling upon Hs name. His name is much more than a moniker He goes by. Calling on the name of the Lord is calling upon Him according to His character and Person. His name is who He is and declared Himself to be. That why reciting "in the name of Jesus" at the end of prayer is meaningless unless you understand what His name means. I rarely recite that but normally say from my heart when I make my requests known in prayer " for Christ's sake."

well the way you said it could imply to any act where you say "Oh God!" or "Jesus Christ!" which is thrown around like a ball nowadays.

 

[faceofbear]

Please don't put words in my mouth. I don't deny the word world but as it is used it never means all men without exception. All are sinners but not all understand or believe that they are. Most think they sin but also think that there is some good in them to recommend them to God. Most think that God will weigh their good against their bad and hopefully the good will outweigh the bad. I don't deny all men are sinners I deny by the Scriptures and experience that all men are saved. Nor do I deny the general call but I do deny that it is God calling. I call all men to believe knowing full well that only the elect will. Like most who do not wish to bow to the truth you try to twist it into something that is ridiculous and paint it in as bad a light as you can come up with. Sorry but I ain't falling for it.

I didn't quote you, though it was directed, in a sense, towards you, it was more of a general reference to anyone stating that the world is only the elect.

I didn't twist anything, I'm just using the logic such people are using. When the bible speaks to "all" it can only thereby mean the elect. If you deny this then you contradict your own beliefs. In fact, I might add that I think it is distorting scripture to fit your doctrinal stance rather than letting scripture speak for itself. In fact, in John 3:16, the word used for "world," is the same word used for when the Devil showed Jesus all the Kingdoms of the world (Matt. 4:8), that "ye are the light of the world (Matt. 5:14), describing the field as the world which is composed of the supposed elect and wicked (Matt. 13:38), "woe to the world because of stumbling blocks" (Matt. 18:7), the beginning of the world (Matt. 24:21), described as preaching the gospel to all the world (Mark 16:15), gaining the whole world (Luke 9:25), describing that the world "seeks after" (Luke 12:30), the world is described as people who didn't know Jesus (John 1:10), where God sent Jesus that the world MIGHT BE saved through Him (John 3:17), described that the world hates Jesus (John 7:7), I can go on and on, there's over 150 verses. To imply that these only mean the world of the elect, I believe, is plain distorting scripture.

As I've said before, I'm not here to assault, but I'm here to learn, but it appears that people seem to be over defensive and apparently even accuse me of not being willing to bow to the truth.

I don't believe all are saved, by no means do I believe that. But I do believe Christ is sufficient to save all men.

I believe, as it is today, God commands all men, everywhere, non-elect, and elect, to repent. However, only the elect will respond to that call.

I do think it is very blasphemous to the blood of Christ to say He is insufficient to save all men, which is essentially what this debate is over. It's whether the blood of Christ is sufficient for all men or not.

 

[98cwitr]

I'll throw my .02 in.

It's not that Christ is not sufficient...it's that MAN is not sufficient to accept Christ. We must accept Christ...period, otherwise there is no salvation for us.

 

[faceofbear]

I'll throw my .02 in.

It's not that Christ is not sufficient...it's that MAN is not sufficient to accept Christ. We must accept Christ...period, otherwise there is no salvation for us.

The reason why I even post in these types of discussions is because I don't think it's necessarily a debate about the "elect" and "reprobates," I see it as attack to the character of God and the sufficiency of Christ.

However, that being said, I am really unlearned. God has only really began working in my life deeply in about the past year and couple months (to be sure, an infinite amount of time ago, but only recognizable by me the past yearish).

Although at times I get frustrated because it contradicts what I believe, I want to learn. I mean, in the past few weeks, I've progressed a little further down the Calvinist line, but am probably between a low and moderate Calvinist.

It appears that both views have valid claims, and it's just minuet details that separate them.

But I agree. Christ is sufficient enough, but men cannot believe or accept Him without the prompting and revelation of the Holy Spirit.

 

[faceofbear]

well the way you said it could imply to any act where you say "Oh God!" or "Jesus Christ!" which is thrown around like a ball nowadays.

The other thing is that if a man must fully understand God and His glorious Being to be saved and to call on His name, no one is saved. No one fully understands God and to say otherwise is to restrict God into some finite box. Men don't want a God that is incomprehensible, they want a manageable God, but God isn't manageable, He is the Manager. But through the process of sanctification we learn who God is by revelation of the Holy Spirit, who knows God.

 

[Hentenza]

I disagree because I believe the glory of God rests in these things. Not only that I believe that the souls of men are at stake. No one is saved believing in a false God or a false Christ. Malachi asks the question will a man rob God and it ain't got anything to do with tithing. It has to do with polluting the worship of God by making Him something He isn't.

Brother, I am not going to get sucked in to the typical soteriology debacle of who's God is the real God. I stay away from soteriology for that reason. Some of the worst displays of unChristlike behavior come from soteriology debates. It seems that if one doesn't think like the other then their Christianity is questioned. The behavior is childish, unprofitable, and plays right into the hands of satan. If you believe that I worship a different God than the God depicted in scripture then I have nothing more to say because you would be wrong. I pray that I am misreading your post.