1st this isn't about original sin. It's about personal sin. Also his audience were gentiles who were pagan and are now Christians. When a person sins they are dead in their sins.
They were probably worshiping pagan gods and were involved in pagan rituals.
It does not say that they were dead by nature. Rather it says that they were dead in their trespasses and sins. He's talking about their personal sins as a whole not about original sin. When a person sins they are dead in their sins.
Not dead as in having a dead nature. There is no such thing as a dead nature.
By nature they are children of wrath. Which mean that by nature they had a disposition to sin. Which is the effect(or affect?) of original sin.
See above.
It was an analogy to make a point. Which seems I did not make clear. I guess that there are ppl out there that seem to think that things will be exactly like they were before fall.
I was just using what you said in an analogy to make a point.
You your self said that Adam, Eve and Jesus were the only one's that were the perfect image of Christ. I was just using that as an analogy to point out that we will like them in the fact that we will be the perfect image of God before the fall. Now your saying that we will be something beyond Adam and Eve.
No we are not made in the image of Adam. We are made in the image of God.
1st this isn't about original sin. It's about personal sin.
How do you figure that?
Eph 2:1
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
NASU
See the "you," I got news for you brother, it is PLURAL, meaning YOU ALL . . . it is inclusive . . . he is not speaking about individual acts, but the state of all the lost hence:
Eph 2:2
now working in the sons of disobedience.
NASU
Which is EVERYONE ELSE who is not in Christ. Sorry but your contention doesnt hold in the context of the passage.
Also his audience were gentiles who were pagan and are now Christians.
This has no bearing upon the text. Paul is referring to a overarching principle that is working in ALL the sons of disobedience . . . not merely pagans and gentiles. Sorry.
Paul establishes the universality of sin so that he may establish the universality of Christ and then based upon this universality, WED the pagan Gentile and the Jew in Chapter 2 IN CHRIST.
It does not say that they were dead by nature. Rather it says that they were dead in their trespasses and sins.
K, in Greek concepts and you have subservient concepts to first stated concepts . . . the "sons of disobedience" and the "children of wrath" are the same and these are conceptually paralleled to those who are following the "prince of the power of the air" who leads them in the "course of this world" which is in "trespasses and sins." That is the parallelism in the text dude. Ergo, children of wrath in nature are children who are dead in trespasses and sins . . . the nature is DEATH in relation to God and it is universal in ALL who are in the course of the "world" being led by Satan. THAT is the exegesis of the passage.
Not dead as in having a dead nature. There is no such thing as a dead nature.
Really?
Rom 5:12
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men
NASU
You can argue with Paul about what it is that spreads to all men from Adam.
By nature they are children of wrath. Which mean that by nature they had a disposition to sin. Which is the effect(or affect?) of original sin.
Uh, no. Disposition to sin is nowhere in the passage.
Rather, the same soteriology that Paul puts forth here
Rom 5:18
18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men,
NASU
Rom 5:19
9 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners
NASU
operates in Ephesians. Notice, the many are MADE sinners, the result of the one act is CONDEMNATION TO ALL MEN for all sin . . . but why are they sinners? Are they sinners because they sin and therefore become sinners? Or do they sin because by nature they are already children of wrath and what is internal exposes itself in action? THEY WERE MADE SINNERS BY ADAM'S DISOBEDIENCE NOT THERE OWN, the disposition to sin is BECAUSE DEATH AND SIN ARE ALREADY PRESENT BECAUSE OF THE ONE MAN ADAM.
It was an analogy to make a point. Which seems I did not make clear. I guess that there are ppl out there that seem to think that things will be exactly like they were before fall.
There are and your statements seemed to place you along side of them.
Brother, you need to understand that if all Jesus does is heal a wound, we are still alive. If He heals the wound to where we are back to a healed state . . . we are still the same as Adam. There is no change in us. But this cannot be. We are TRANSFORMED into something diffferent. A theology of death by sin is superior to healing a wound from sin in that it expects the glory of the kingdom to come to be exceedingly beyond all we can think or imagine. I dont know why you would hold to something so tenaciously when the option is so much better AND it is the clear teaching of soteriology in relation to sin. WE ARE MADE ALIVE IN CHRIST. That is GLORIOUS . . . the miracle is the dead man now lives . . . which is much more than a lame man who now walks. Jesus DIED as we deserve . . . God did not merely wound Him . . . HE SLEW HIM.
You your self said that Adam, Eve and Jesus were the only one's that were the perfect image of Christ. I was just using that as an analogy to point out that we will like them in the fact that we will be the perfect image of God before the fall.
See this is it. We do not go to the same image! Adam, unfallen, NEVER LOOKS LIKE THE REDEEMED CHRISTIAN. Adam HIMSELF becomes a redeemed Christian which is MORE than he ever was EVEN BEFORE HE FELL, for he does not merely exprience God in the Garden when God walks with him, HE IS UNITED TO GOD IN THE CROSS BY THE SPIRIT . . . something DEEPER than he ever had before he fell. THAT IS THE POINT. Creation is not restored, but REDEEMED to a place of MORE than it fell from because it is BLOOD BOUGHT and unifies MORE than Adam could have ever had. Adam did not have the Spirit inside uniting him to Jesus, we do. Adam's body was not as Jesus' resurrected! But when Jesus returns, all of us, Adam included, will be as Jesus when He comes, which is MORE than what Adam was in the Garden. This is why a mere wound is theologically impossible, we are something that Adam never was, Adam himself will be something that he never was . . . even as all the new creation will be something that it never was . .. no sun, no moons, Jesus Himself as the light . . . I mean c'mon, that is much more glorious than Eden ever was.
Now your saying that we will be something beyond Adam and Eve.
Yep! Adams existence in Eden NEVER included the cross and unity with Christ in the Spirit, nor a resurrected body. Sorry.
No we are not made in the image of Adam. We are made in the image of God
No, Adam and Eve and Jesus beared that image. We are of the line of Adam. Hence Moses' desire to communicate that Adam and Eve were in the image of God, but the line of Adam is in the IMAGE OF ADAM.
Gen 5:1-3
In the day when God created man, He made him in the likeness of God. 2 He created them male and female, and He blessed them and named them Man in the day when they were created.
3 When Adam had lived one hundred and thirty years, he became the father of a son
in his own likeness, according to his image, and named him Seth
NASU
Do you see the clear dichotomy and the INTENT to contrast Adam and Eve's creation as in the image of God but the lineage of man as from Adam? I dont know how much clearer it can be . . .
pax
MTK
