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Catholics-Muslims spiritually united?

lionroar0

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Theologically, wounded means STILL ALIVE. The Bible is clear:

Eph 2:1-3
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
NASU

1st this isn't about original sin. It's about personal sin. Also his audience were gentiles who were pagan and are now Christians. When a person sins they are dead in their sins.

They were probably worshiping pagan gods and were involved in pagan rituals.


We are NOT WOUNDED BUT DEAD.

Further, our nature IS indeed changed. Adam, Eve and Jesus are NOT

BY NATURE

It does not say that they were dead by nature. Rather it says that they were dead in their trespasses and sins. He's talking about their personal sins as a whole not about original sin. When a person sins they are dead in their sins.

Not dead as in having a dead nature. There is no such thing as a dead nature.

By nature they are children of wrath. Which mean that by nature they had a disposition to sin. Which is the effect(or affect?) of original sin.

Children of wrath, but children of FAVOR. When Adam and Eve fall, their nature IS changed from ALIVE and IN FAVOR, to death and IN WRATH.

Thus, the common spiritual state is DEATH which CANNOT BE WOUNDED. The philosophical contentions are at odds with one another and CANNOT be maintained from the texts. Sorry dude.

See above.

No it does not. I am not a "restorationist" in that the goal is a return to Eden.

Therefore this:

doesnt even apply. Original sin KILLS . . . what Jesus brings is something COMPLETELY NEW that Adam NEVER HAD . . . a union with God that Eden never even conceived of. It is NOW BLOOD BOUGHT . . . the New Heavens and Earth will be some much more than Eden ever was . . . and the human saved by grace will be much more than Adam ever was, even unfallen.

It was an analogy to make a point. Which seems I did not make clear. I guess that there are ppl out there that seem to think that things will be exactly like they were before fall.

Ok, here is where your assumption goes askew. He does not RENEW . . . HE RECASTS. We are NOT what Adam was, and we will never be what Adam was. We will be LIKE JESUS in His RESURRECTED STATE . . . which is something COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. SO the whole concept that you have falls. The image of God that we will bear will be VASTLY beyond anything that Adam ever was because of the CROSS AND UNION WITH CHRIST which Adam never had in Eden. Redemption thru blood recasts the whole of creation . . . your concept doesnt even consider this.

I was just using what you said in an analogy to make a point.

You your self said that Adam, Eve and Jesus were the only one's that were the perfect image of Christ. I was just using that as an analogy to point out that we will like them in the fact that we will be the perfect image of God before the fall. Now your saying that we will be something beyond Adam and Eve.

Imperfect image of what? God? Brother, the ONLY humans to ever bear the image of God is Adam, Eve and Jesus . . . we bear the image of ADAM FALLEN which does NOT bear the image of God AT ALL. Hence Paul's whole concept of "in Adam" vs "in Christ." There is NO SUCH THING as an IMPERFECT IMAGE OF GOD . . . because God IS PERFECT. The moment that the image becomes imperfect, it ceases to be the image of God at all.

No we are not made in the image of Adam. We are made in the image of God.
 
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lionroar0

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we are born dead in sin, that is the nature of original sin's impact on humanity

We are not alive in Christ unless we are saved.....I don't believe the works heresy you are implying here.

And where do you see a works heresy? We are not born dead in sin. We are born with a wounded nature.
 
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lionroar0

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ok, but only if your wound is defined as totally depraved and dead in his trespasses and sin.
otherwise your doctrine is counter to Scripture and is a different gospel

Original sin can cause death if not healed by grace.

Trespasses and sins are a consequence of original sin which, can lead to death.

The wages of sin is death. It's not the wage of sin is death.
 
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lionroar0

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I am not sure if you get it . . . charis/grace is "Gods unmerrited favor" . . . this means that there is NOTHING IN US THAT MERRITS WHAT HE HAS DONE . . . ERGO, there is NOTHING IN US WORTH SAVING. That is the concept of SINNER.

What is in us, is that which He has made. Is something that God made worth saving?

Biblically the only people made in the image of God are Adam and Eve. SHow me more . . . THEY were made in the image and likeness of God . . . we are cast in their shadows.
Basically your stating that we have a different nature then Adam and Eve.
Which is wrong

Proof positive . . . who is "they" . . . the antecedant is NOT ALL OF HUMANITY but ADAM AND EVE. No dice.
And we are their sons and daughters. We have what God put in them and we have to live with the consequence(s) of their sin.

Again, God is perfect, and the moment that the image is marred, it CEASES TO BE ANY IMAGE OF GOD BECAUSE GOD IS PERFECT and the image is NOT. That is logic.
No that is a logical fallacy of appeal to belief, because, you belief that the moment the image of God is marred it ceases to be the image of God.

Mona-Lisa-is-growing-a-beard--16660.jpg



The above is a marred image of the Mona Lisa. The image is still the Mona-Lisa. It does not stop being the Mona-Lisa underneath the beard. Like wise when we are born we are born as God made us. In His image but we are a marred image. When the image is cleaned it becomes the perfect image of God. Likewise when the Mona-Lisa is cleaned she becomes the Mona-Lisa as she was created.(yes I know it's not the original)


There is no such thing as a "fallen image of God" . . .
See above.

K, you can argue with Paul
Eph 2:1-4
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
NASU

Here we have the clear didactic teaching of the greatest mind in the NT (aside from Christ) that the NATURE of the fallen is CHANGED and that state is DEATH, from which WOUND cannot be construed. Sorry.

Uh no. That passage IS about original sin . . . no dice. Original sin creates one being born into a STATE OF DEATH. Sorry.
It does not say that they were dead by nature. Rather it says that they were dead in their trespasses and sins. He's talking about their personal sins as a whole not about original sin. When a person sins they are dead in their sins.

Not dead as in having a dead nature. There is no such thing as a dead nature.

By nature they are children of wrath. Which means that by nature they had a disposition to sin. Which is the effect(or affect?) of original sin.

Also
1 Peter 2:24


24He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.




WHAT?! Ok, so then this:

1 John 3:2
2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will belike Him,
NASU

Is a lie? Sorry, but the teaching is that WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT WE WILL BE. But we know what Adam was, and what the image of God in Adam prior to the Fall was. Sorry dude, but your posits just dont hold to the entirety of the Scriptures.


Wow, ur logic doesnt hold. Did Adam and Eve have a redeemed blood bought unity with God? NOPE. Sorry, I dont think you have really thought about the logic in the steps here brother . . . what we will be is MORE than Adam and Eve EVER had. Your "as He intended it to be" completely disregards Gods sovereignty as if the snake deceiving Eve caught God off guard. Sorry, Eden was NOT how God INTENDED IT TO BE . . . it was what He intended it to be AT THAT MOMENT, but Jesus being chosen BEFORE THE creation to DIE as the LAMB shows is that God's INTENT INCLUDES THE FALL. ERGO, what He intends is BEYOND ANYTHING THAT EDEN AND ADAM EVER WAS. Sorry.
was just using what you said in an analogy to make a point.

You your self said that Adam, Eve and Jesus were the only one's that were the perfect image of Christ. I was just using that as an analogy to point out that we will like them in the fact that we will be the perfect image of God before the fall. Nothing more.

So you take a figure of speech meant to illustrate need and derive from it a concept of exactly what sin is? Bad hermeneutics bro. Read Eph 2 again.
I did, read my explanation of it.

No Jesus did not become Human like us . . . he became Human LIKE ADAM PRIOR TO THE FALL because He needed to succeed where Adam did not. That is Pauls entire teaching in Romans 5

Rom 5:18-20
19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
NASU

Jesus obeys where Adam did not (read the chapter dude in the phrasiology of "the one" verse "the one")

There is sin in us but concerning Christ:
1 John 3:5
5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
NASU
I stand corrected. What I meant is He also has a human nature and we also have a human nature. He is also a man. We do not stop having a human nature, because of original sin.

Not the context? Bro, Paul is teaching on the universality of sin for the universal NEED for Jesus . . . that is perfectly within the context.

Your points dont hold heremeneutically, systematically nor exegetically.
Yeah they do. They are actually more inline with the verses from eph. IMHO.
 
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lionroar0

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I think the terms wounded and dead both have a place. We are born wounded with a predisposition to sin. This is the result of the fall of Adam. We die when we personally sin (which we all do).
Exactly. That predisposition is the effect of original sin and we die when we personally sin.
 
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Eucharisted

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Shouldn't this be in the Catholic forum? :confused:

Well, whatever. Here's the Church's dogmatic teaching on Islam:

15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ's disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.


16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohammedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, "Preach the Gospel to every creature",(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.


-- Dogmatic Constitution on the Church
tl;dr version: Non-Catholic religions are linked to Christianity by truth and love, like how we are united to God by truth and love, because God is Truth and Love Itself.
 
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simonthezealot

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No we are not made in the image of Adam. We are made in the image of God.
:confused:
1 This is the book of the genealogy of Adam. In the day that God created man, He made him in the likeness of God. 2 He created them male and female, and blessed them and called them Mankind in the day they were created.
3 And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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mont974x4

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And where do you see a works heresy? We are not born dead in sin. We are born with a wounded nature.


the works heresy is implied because it depends on you behaving.


We are born dead sinners. That's what God tells us. That's why I called what your spouting as heresy. It flies in direct opposition to the Word of God.
 
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boswd

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we are born dead in sin, that is the nature of original sin's impact on humanity

We are not alive in Christ unless we are saved.....I don't believe the works heresy you are implying here.

that always just cracks me up. Yep listening and obeying Christ is works based heresy.

Ahhh love those "All I got to do is say the magic prayer and then sit back and do nothing" Christians mentality.

Actually your theology in in stark contrast to Scripture, Your theology goes directly against James and Matthew.
 
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Tangible

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Ahhh love those "All I got to do is say the magic prayer and then sit back and do nothing" Christians mentality.
bos, I don't see where he is suggesting a sinner's prayer mentality. He may indeed hold to that, but it's not evident in the post you quoted. To get something similar to what you posted, you have to choose decision theology from the Arminian column and OSAS from the Calvinist column. Not a very consistent theological construct.

Believing what the bible teaches about original sin is not linked to decision theology (which is undoubtedly a false teaching) but to a semi-pelagian view of natural man's condition. In order for a 'decision for Christ' efficacious you have to believe that natural man is capable of obeying God in direct contrast to scripture (Romans 8:7).
 
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simonthezealot

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that always just cracks me up. Yep listening and obeying Christ is works based heresy.

Ahhh love those "All I got to do is say the magic prayer and then sit back and do nothing" Christians mentality.

Actually your theology in in stark contrast to Scripture, Your theology goes directly against James and Matthew.


Dear boswd,

Nehemiah 6:8

STZ
 
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mont974x4

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that always just cracks me up. Yep listening and obeying Christ is works based heresy.

Ahhh love those "All I got to do is say the magic prayer and then sit back and do nothing" Christians mentality.

Actually your theology in in stark contrast to Scripture, Your theology goes directly against James and Matthew.


only if you completely distort not only my posts, my theology, and what the Bible says.



good luck with that. BTW, your lack of a grasp on reality is showing. Here's a hint...actually read what is written, not what you wish was written.


Have a nice weekend. I'm out of town.
 
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Yab Yum

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that always just cracks me up. Yep listening and obeying Christ is works based heresy.

Ahhh love those "All I got to do is say the magic prayer and then sit back and do nothing" Christians mentality.

Actually your theology in in stark contrast to Scripture, Your theology goes directly against James and Matthew.

You don't even have to say the magic prayer. You were already given the magic lottery ticket.
 
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simonthezealot

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You don't even have to say the magic prayer. You were already given the magic lottery ticket.
Responding to a nonsensical post with more of the same it appears, what is it your attempting to say?
 
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