Catholics-Muslims spiritually united?

[simonthezealot]

I mean who knows Simon some civilized dialoge with them you just may convince them to see the light.

Telling them their faith worships Satatan doesn't actually start the process off in the right direction.

The most successful evangelist to the muslims Father Z will tell you different... He makes NO bones about telling them that and neither would i.

 

[visionary]

Wouldn't that be akin to anti-semitism?

It would be like me telling the Jews they worship a different God than we do

I want to bring both the Jews and Muslims to the One True Lord and God of us, Jesus the Christ

Deut 28:13 And YHWH gives thee to head and not to tail, and thou become surely to above and not thou shall become to below.
That thou shall listen to instructions of YHWH thy 'Elohiym which I instructing thee the day to observe and to do.

John 8:23 And He said to them, "Ye out of the below are, I out of the above Am.
Ye out of this, the world, are. I not Am out of the world, this.
24I said then to ye, thatye shall be dying in the sins of ye, for if-ever no ye should be believing that I am, ye shall be dying in the sins of ye.'
[Deuteronomy 28:13]

Jews do not have a problem with worshipping the Father, it is His Son that they have a problem with.. Muslims have a difficulty with anything associated with the Jews or Christians and what they believe..

 

[mont974x4]

The most successful evangelist to the muslims Father Z will tell you different... He makes NO bones about telling them that and neither would i.

Agreed. The consequences are eternal. There is no point in dancing around the issue so not to offend. The Cross is offensive, the Gospel is a stumbling block. It is divisive as a sword.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Jews do not have a problem with worshipping the Father, it is His Son that they have a problem with.. Muslims have a difficulty with anything associated with the Jews or Christians and what they believe..

I agree.
They need Jesus

http://www.christianforums.com/t5615012-46/#post36126961http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=5615012&page=36&highlight=mankind
Jesus Christ, was he sent for all mankind?

Hello.We muslims believe he was sent to the sons of Israel not for all mankind.

This doesnt mean the one who follows Him in real does a wrong job but this is God's plan for He sent Muhammed-aleyhissalam-to all mankind.
Which proofs do christians have to claim that Jesus was sent to entire humanity and not only to the israelites?

 

[boswd]

Wouldn't that be akin to anti-semitism?

It would be like me telling the Jews they worship a different God than we do

I want to bring both the Jews and Muslims to the One True Lord and God of us, Jesus the Christ

Deut 28:13 And YHWH gives thee to head and not to tail, and thou become surely to above and not thou shall become to below.
That thou shall listen to instructions of YHWH thy 'Elohiym which I instructing thee the day to observe and to do.

John 8:23 And He said to them, "Ye out of the below are, I out of the above Am.
Ye out of this, the world, are. I not Am out of the world, this.
24I said then to ye, that ye shall be dying in the sins of ye, for if-ever no ye should be believing that I am, ye shall be dying in the sins of ye.'
[Deuteronomy 28:13]

me too

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

me too

It would also help if the Muslims [and some of those in the sect of the MJs] didn't view my bro Saul/Paul as a false Apostle

http://www.christianforums.com/t4410009-7/#post29865856
Can Muhammad and Paul be buddies

 

[simonthezealot]

Confounding truth with lies is not how we should do it, my whole point is my frustration with the largest "christian" organization is doing that very thing with their promotion of ecumenism and the claim of the same creator, the father of Abraham, and this does go in the face of christian orthodox teaching.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Confounding truth with lies is not how we should do it, my whole point is my frustration with the largest "christian" organization is doing that very thing with their promotion of ecumenism and the claim of the same creator, the father of Abraham, and this does go in the face of christian orthodox teaching.

I was labeled as "unorthodox" and in fact, my chances of being a Mod on CF was almost jeapordized becuz of my view of Matt 24

http://www.christianforums.com/t7392923-27/#post52748967

 

[simonthezealot]

I was labeled as "unorthodox" and in fact, my chances of being a Mod on CF was almost jeapordized becuz of my view of Matt 24

http://www.christianforums.com/t7392923-27/#post52748967

Me thinks maybe ya outta revisit that bit o scripture then.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Me thinks maybe ya outta revisit that bit o scripture then.

Ya think?
It took me over a week just to translate that 1 chapter from the greek texts ehehe

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Matthew 24:3 Of sitting yet of Him upon the Mount of the Olives toward-came to Him the Disciples according to own saying "be telling to us when? shall these-things be and what? the Sign of the Thy ParousiaV <3952> and the together-finish/sun-teleiaV <4930> of the Age"
[1 Corin 15:23/Revelation 15:1/19:11]

1 Corin 15:23 Each yet in the own rank, a firstfruit Christ, thereafter the ones of the Christ in the parousia <3952> of Him
24 thereafter the End
[Revelation 15:1]

Revelation 19:11 And I saw the heaven having be opened and behold!
A horse, white and the One sitting on him being called faithful and true. And in righteousness He is judging and battling.

 

[simonthezealot]

Ya think?
It took me over a week just to translate that 1 chapter from the greek texts ehehe

And now to take a week interpreting right?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

And now to take a week interpreting right?

Nope.....take me about another month to translate these Epistles first.....I will leave you and the other GT Scholars to do the interpreting

http://www.christianforums.com/t7364825-48/
Book of Romans verse by verse

http://www.christianforums.com/t7426625-22/#post53776624
Book of Hebrews verse by verse

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

I don't have to embrace all of Islam to agree with them that a Creator exists. But that's just me.

The irony here is that Catholics were at war with Islam centuries before Protestantism even existed.....

Indeed Ironic!

I don't have to embrace all of Islam to agree with them that a Creator exists

No, youre right. But your embracing the right Creator as your system culminates in Christ on the Cross, risen and redeeming His people . . . their assumption does not, it culminates in Muhammed who pronounces a deity who rejects culmination in Christ the Cross OUTRIGHT. So tho the concept of creation is TRUE, the CREATOR that they espouse who has done this, is not the same that WE espouse who has done this.

 

[simonthezealot]

The bedrock truth of our faiths foundation is the incarnation, denial of that is denial of God Himself.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

I disagree that belief in a Creator is "futile". You are insisting that one must either agree or disagree with Islam as a single package deal and ignore philosophies they have that you could agree with. I don't think you should forbid others to point out areas that those individuals can build upon. If a Muslim were to convert to Christianity he WOULD NOT have to jettison his already held belief that a Creator exists.

I dont think you are seeing what I am saying.

No the belief in that a creator exists would not have to be jettisoned, BUT the CREATOR THAT THEY THINK DID THE CREATING WOULD . . . and then be repalced by YHWH/Jesus.

Do you see the error now? The particular components of a system cannot be understood apart from the system as a whole. One needs the other . . . sure they share a belief in a creator . . . but it is NOT the same creator, therefore, and concept of creation, tho creation in and of itself is true, for them becomes moot because the god they are believing did the creating IS THE WRONG GOD . . .

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Yes i think it remains vitally important if one is evangelizing an arab that you set down the clear path that the allah of islam is NOT God, period. That's why i don't believe allah should be used, there need be a clear distinction between the 2.

there need be a clear distinction between the 2

Agreed . . . but we have the same issue here in the US. We say God and there are all KINDS of false understandings of God. My dad is new age, he always says "yes" to God . . . but he doesnt mean the same thing.

So distinction is needed here too . . . as long as terms are defined I think allah is OK . .. so long as terms are defined.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Matt 7:12 So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

Matt 7:1 "Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. 3Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.

1st: Islam does not count as "brothers" so Matt 7 is out.

2nd: John 7:24
24 "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."
NASU

So you need to incorporate a proper heremeutic.

Judgement in condemnation and self righteousness is what is wrong, but proper discernment and calling what is what is, is not wrong.

Not to mention the PLETHORA of verses in the NT where false teachers are denounced . . . sorry dude.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Turning a series of "holy" wars where innocent people in the Middle East were raped, tortured, and killed into evidence of Catholic-Islam "spiritual unification." That's impressive. Wrong, of course, but still impressive. How far do you have to reach simon? How far will you go? You find parallels anywhere so long as it seems like they may be possibly vaguely related to something that can be used against Catholicism.

There is no "spiritual unity" between Catholics and Muslims in this example you cite (and there isn't any in any of your other examples either, but I'm not addressing those right now). The motivations of indulgences and jihad are completely different. They are born out of two separate religions from two separate cultures. Not to mention, the two religions are completely opposed to each other in your two little bullet points. How can there be any kind of spiritual unity when the two are fighting against each other? There cannot.

The history between Christianity and Islam is bloody and full of hatred. Christianity, and Catholicism in particular, is still very much opposed to saying that Islam has any truth in it beyond worshiping the Abrahamic God. History doesn't fade away that quickly simon, but I'm sure you know that. Recent statements regarding Islam are diplomatic efforts and part of ecumenism, nothing more.

Recent statements regarding Islam are diplomatic efforts and part of ecumenism, nothing more.

I understand that this is what it was . . . problem is that there is supposed to be NO ECUMENISM BETWEEN THE CHURCH AND THE ENEMY. Sure we evangelize them . . . but that is not ecumenism.

Not to mention that we are, in their view, in the House of War, there IS NO SUCH THING AS DIPLOMACY.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Some of you are under the impression that there is no shred of goodness in a non-Christian.

There is no shred of good in anyone save that which Christ imparts brother . . . that is universal sin. I stand as righteous and good BECAUSE OF CHRIST ALONE. If I had ANY claim to goodness then Jesus is not needed.

Remember this:

THERE IS NOT ONE THAT DOES GOOD, NO NOT ONE, THEY ALL HAVE GONE ASTRAY

Universal depravity in original sin . . . there ya have it brother!

 

[lionroar0]

There is no shred of good in anyone save that which Christ imparts brother . . . that is universal sin. I stand as righteous and good BECAUSE OF CHRIST ALONE. If I had ANY claim to goodness then Jesus is not needed.

Remember this:

THERE IS NOT ONE THAT DOES GOOD, NO NOT ONE, THEY ALL HAVE GONE ASTRAY

Universal depravity in original sin . . . there ya have it brother!

Original sin does not contain universal depravity. Original sin is having a wounded human nature.

Also the scriptures do state that the law is written in the hearts of men. There's no mention of knowing the law and acting accordingly. As the Jews did in the OT.

That's a problem of gnosis entirely with in protestanism. Although it is not a problem with all denoms.