Be glad your church isn't seeker-sensitive

VCViking

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Funny..Northpoint Community Church is pastored by Andy Stanley, son of famed Baptist Pastor Charles Stanley. How vapid. I have high blood pressure now.


This video is not of his church. The church in the video is pastored by Tommy Sparger of North Point Church. The website Home (North Point Church -- Springfield, MO) is on the bottom of their youtube video.
 
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VCViking

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ReformedChapin

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silence_dogood

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silence_dogood

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Not now but I used to attend a "seeker-friendly church" piece a crap.

Our church was formed after some of us left a church that was a terrific church until the pastor there decided to take us in a seeker sensitive direction.

After that, it became more about entertaining the goats than feeding the sheep.

Now, we love to welcome "seekers", should they choose to visit, but we do church for the body of Christ, not for the world.

We don't even advertise our church and yet, it's grown twenty fold since we started and are about to dedicate our third building since then. We just preach the word of God faithfully and let God draw who He wants to draw.
 
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kenrapoza

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The idea is not to put "stumbling blocks" in the way of un-churched people coming to church, to try to make them feel as comfortable and at home as possible. Unfortunately, to be consistent it must include a wholesale downplaying of Biblical preaching on law and gospel, as this message is an offense.
 
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kenrapoza

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By the way, I just ran across this blurb on the Heidelblog that hits on the same subject of what the real meaning is behind "seeker sensitive":

"...Now, the church growth gurus never advertised this result. What they advertised was numerical growth in the congregation. In other words, what was really being offered was a way to minimize the antithesis between belief and unbelief, between the kingdom of darkness and the kingdom of light in order to make non-Christians feel 'comfortable' in church so that they would stay or come back next week all to the end, ostensibly, of reaching them with the gospel. When exactly this bait and switch was to happen was not always made clear nor was it always clear what 'the gospel' is.

Martin is quite right. Do we want 'church growth'? Yes! We want to see sinners brought to a knowledge of their sins and to saving faith in Savior. We want to see them become disciples, members of the Christ-confessing covenant community. We want to see them grow in grace but, as Martin says, that 'won’t happen with clever ideas derived from a flawed strategic planning process.'"
 
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silence_dogood

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What's with the "seeker friendly" method? So as not to step on toes?

The problem with seeker sensitive is that it puts so much emphasis on making church "relevant" and enjoyable for the unsaved, that it must neglect the responsibilities of the church to the body of Christ.

The unsaved are at enmity with God. They don't have fellowship with Him, they don't have fellowship with us, they don't worship Him, they don't want to hear the preaching and teaching of the Word of God, they're not eligible to participate in the ordinances of the church and they certainly don't want to defer to the church's authority.

So what's the point of inviting the world into the church?

Let's do what they did in the 1st century church and go out in the world and preach the Gospel to the lost and then, after they get saved, ask them into the church.

Seeker sensitive sermons usually consist of something like showing Three Stooges movies and asking, "Friend, do you feel like Curly sometimes? Is there a Moe in your life? Do you feel like life is poking you in the eye?" It trades the Gospel of salvation for moralizing and "how to live a better life" nonsense that has more to do with the Gospel according to Oprah than the Biblical Gospel.

If you're preaching to a crowd of lost people and 95% of them don't want to run you out of town on a rail, that's a good sign you're not preaching the true Gospel.

And don't even get me started about the music.
 
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tansy

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Not sure if I am allowed to post here as I'm not necessarily any partic denom or anything.
But I just wanted to say I thought 'seeker friendly' was perhaps doing services where the Gospel was, say, put into more simple words - I knew at least one person who didn't understand the word 'perishing' for example, I had to explain it in VERY basic terms. I do think that coming into certain church services can be very overwhelming for some people and can frighten them away. Hopefully, in most churches there will be someone who will actually sit with a newcomer (if they are happy with that)and help them with what's going on, and talk to them afterwards..perhaps if they're interested, put them onto a 'seekers'' house group or whatever there is available to help them know who Jesus is.
When i first attended a church (after many, many years of not going to one), I found the people friendly and helpful, and they made sure I was able to get the info I was looking for, and whatever other help I needed. On one level the service itself perhaps wasnt seeker-friendly...but the people WERE, and THEY helped me with my seeking.
 
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Hammster

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Tansy, I think that silence_dogood's post summed up the issue pretty good. But what we AREN'T saying is that churches should be mean to people who aren't Christians. We should be open to those who are seeking, because we believe that unless God does a work in them first, they won't be seeking. So when we see new people, we should welcome them and love on them. But the message should be a clear gospel presentation (all sermons should be). It is the gospel that changes people, not our catering to them and coming up with tricks to 'get them in the door', so to speak.
 
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tansy

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Tansy, I think that silence_dogood's post summed up the issue pretty good. But what we AREN'T saying is that churches should be mean to people who aren't Christians. We should be open to those who are seeking, because we believe that unless God does a work in them first, they won't be seeking. So when we see new people, we should welcome them and love on them. But the message should be a clear gospel presentation (all sermons should be). It is the gospel that changes people, not our catering to them and coming up with tricks to 'get them in the door', so to speak.

:thumbsup: Yes, agreed.
 
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silence_dogood

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Not sure if I am allowed to post here as I'm not necessarily any partic denom or anything.
But I just wanted to say I thought 'seeker friendly' was perhaps doing services where the Gospel was, say, put into more simple words - I knew at least one person who didn't understand the word 'perishing' for example, I had to explain it in VERY basic terms. I do think that coming into certain church services can be very overwhelming for some people and can frighten them away.

Hopefully, in most churches there will be someone who will actually sit with a newcomer (if they are happy with that)and help them with what's going on, and talk to them afterwards..perhaps if they're interested, put them onto a 'seekers'' house group or whatever there is available to help them know who Jesus is.

When i first attended a church (after many, many years of not going to one), I found the people friendly and helpful, and they made sure I was able to get the info I was looking for, and whatever other help I needed. On one level the service itself perhaps wasnt seeker-friendly...but the people WERE, and THEY helped me with my seeking.

Tansy, if that was all it is, then I doubt anybody here would have any problems at all with it.

But it isn't just that.

First, there's the idea that the church isn't for the body of Christ, as the Bible says, but for the world.

Once you adopt that attitude, you've already abandoned the role and responsibilities of the church.

Then, there's the idea that we have to use gimmicks to get people into the church to hear what passes for the Gospel in these churches. Rock concerts, car givaways, circus acts, etc...

The lost don't reject the Gospel because it's boring. They reject the Gospel for the same reason a child screams when his mother pours peroxide on a skinned knee: it stings! If you're a sinner in danger of facing God's wrath on Judgement Day, the last thing you want to hear is that you're a sinner and you need to repent and stop sinning. They're not just bored or confused by the Gospel, they're enemies with and rebels against the God behind the Gospel.

Third, is the fact that once you draw them in, you have to change the message of the Gospel to the point that it's unrecognizable from the Gospel so that you don't offend them. Seeker sensitive churches don't present the Gospel. They present moralizing sermons about how we're supposed to be good and take care of our fellow man, like Rick Warren, or they preach a goofy, feel good, "Your Best Life Now" message. When I was learning to preach the Gospel, one of the best pieces of advice I got was that you should be able to preach the same Gospel to a group of tribesmen in Africa that you can to a group of housewives in Mobile.

Think about that for a minute. What do you really think starving people in Africa or those being tortured in Muslim countries need to hear? That their suffering is not random, but is under the sovereignty of a loving God who will save them and give them a hope beyond this life of suffering? Or how wonderful their lives will be if they'll just sow a "seed offering" and follow these three simple steps?
 
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GQ Chris

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The problem with seeker sensitive is that it puts so much emphasis on making church "relevant" and enjoyable for the unsaved, that it must neglect the responsibilities of the church to the body of Christ.

The unsaved are at enmity with God. They don't have fellowship with Him, they don't have fellowship with us, they don't worship Him, they don't want to hear the preaching and teaching of the Word of God, they're not eligible to participate in the ordinances of the church and they certainly don't want to defer to the church's authority.

So what's the point of inviting the world into the church?

Let's do what they did in the 1st century church and go out in the world and preach the Gospel to the lost and then, after they get saved, ask them into the church.

Seeker sensitive sermons usually consist of something like showing Three Stooges movies and asking, "Friend, do you feel like Curly sometimes? Is there a Moe in your life? Do you feel like life is poking you in the eye?" It trades the Gospel of salvation for moralizing and "how to live a better life" nonsense that has more to do with the Gospel according to Oprah than the Biblical Gospel.

If you're preaching to a crowd of lost people and 95% of them don't want to run you out of town on a rail, that's a good sign you're not preaching the true Gospel.

And don't even get me started about the music.

Hahaha, excellent explanation.
 
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tansy

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Tansy, if that was all it is, then I doubt anybody here would have any problems at all with it.

But it isn't just that.

First, there's the idea that the church isn't for the body of Christ, as the Bible says, but for the world.

Once you adopt that attitude, you've already abandoned the role and responsibilities of the church.

Then, there's the idea that we have to use gimmicks to get people into the church to hear what passes for the Gospel in these churches. Rock concerts, car givaways, circus acts, etc...

The lost don't reject the Gospel because it's boring. They reject the Gospel for the same reason a child screams when his mother pours peroxide on a skinned knee: it stings! If you're a sinner in danger of facing God's wrath on Judgement Day, the last thing you want to hear is that you're a sinner and you need to repent and stop sinning. They're not just bored or confused by the Gospel, they're enemies with and rebels against the God behind the Gospel.

Third, is the fact that once you draw them in, you have to change the message of the Gospel to the point that it's unrecognizable from the Gospel so that you don't offend them. Seeker sensitive churches don't present the Gospel. They present moralizing sermons about how we're supposed to be good and take care of our fellow man, like Rick Warren, or they preach a goofy, feel good, "Your Best Life Now" message. When I was learning to preach the Gospel, one of the best pieces of advice I got was that you should be able to preach the same Gospel to a group of tribesmen in Africa that you can to a group of housewives in Mobile.

Think about that for a minute. What do you really think starving people in Africa or those being tortured in Muslim countries need to hear? That their suffering is not random, but is under the sovereignty of a loving God who will save them and give them a hope beyond this life of suffering? Or how wonderful their lives will be if they'll just sow a "seed offering" and follow these three simple steps?

Ah, right, yes, perhaps these people are going too far then - I have to say I've never particularly come across a church that does much of that kind of thing...or at least if they do a LITTLE of that, they also do preach the Gospel. Perhaps it depends on whether there is any serious back-up or follow-up . if there is anyone desperate to know the Gospel message. As I say, I've never really come across churches that are really like that.
And I do agree with preaching the same Gospel...but i suppose what I was getting at was that sometimes has to be preached in a a way that people will be able to understand..not everyone would understand certain 'long' words. But I suppose preaching from a pulpit is somewhat different from talking to someone informally about the Gospel. I suppose that I usually end up talking with people I bump into in the street and things (which incidentally, I agree with above posters...I think we need to be 'out there'..not necessarily waiting for people to come to the church)
 
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my pastor just shared this with a few of us

http://vimeo.com/11501569
Edie! you should have issued a warning for those of us with low nausea thresholds.
sick.gif


Seriously though, i don't have any objection to that kind of thing as long as they don't try to push it in a church service.

If they wanted to do something really radical for the youth groups, then they'd try teaching the Catechism. The first people you need to teach are the musicians in the video.
 
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