Socialism - An Evil Concept

Greeble

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As the daughter of a missionary, having lived in third world countries and seen poverty the likes of which most Americans are incapable of conceiving, I would like to say how sickened and shamed I am that any "Christian" would blame poverty on the victims.

Millions of good Christians around the world live in horrific want. They go to church. They obey Christ. They die of starvation.

Claiming they are at fault for their own poverty shows a lack of humanity that is breathtaking. Stating this position publicly brings shame to Christians everywhere. I cannot begin to express how much.
 
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MacFall

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As the daughter of a missionary, having lived in third world countries and seen poverty the likes of which most Americans are incapable of conceiving, I would like to say how sickened and shamed I am that any "Christian" would blame poverty on the victims.

Millions of good Christians around the world live in horrific want. They go to church. They obey Christ. They die of starvation.

Claiming they are at fault for their own poverty shows a lack of humanity that is breathtaking. Stating this position publicly brings shame to Christians everywhere. I cannot begin to express how much.

To be fair, most Americans probably believe that because American "poverty", which means having only one car instead of four, is largely due to bad decisions by the "poor". Not entirely, but mostly. People are taught from a young age that debt is okay, and they are further encouraged by artificially low interest rates set by the Federal Reserve. So they buy things for which they cannot pay, and then end up having to decide between debt payments and things like rent. And then in some cases, that doesn't even stop them from buying even more stuff on credit.

I say this as the son of such people, who is only now learning for himself what a bad idea it is to go into debt rather than saving now and buying later.

But that is simply not true in nations where there simply is not the same kind of opportunities that exist here. Conservative Christians don't like to hear that, because
"lack of opportunity" is a left-ish sounding explanation for poverty. But it is true. It doesn't matter how hard you work when all you have to work with is your own hands and the soil.

However, the left almost always fails to recognize that it is often confiscatory governments that limit opportunity. People who take from others that which they have not earned and consume it, and produce nothing of their own except for volumes of statutory laws and regulations, are parasites - and parasitism always results in poor health to the host.
 
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TheReasoner

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As the daughter of a missionary, having lived in third world countries and seen poverty the likes of which most Americans are incapable of conceiving, I would like to say how sickened and shamed I am that any "Christian" would blame poverty on the victims.

Millions of good Christians around the world live in horrific want. They go to church. They obey Christ. They die of starvation.

Claiming they are at fault for their own poverty shows a lack of humanity that is breathtaking. Stating this position publicly brings shame to Christians everywhere. I cannot begin to express how much.

As an mk myself, I have to say I share your (first hand) knowledge on this area and wholeheartedly agree with your grief and conclusion.

I state my opinion and you define it as wrong, then you state your opinion and define it as right.

No, Clirus. I am not a positivist objectivist even if you are. I state my opinion, show what I base it on and say I believe it to be right. I have not and am not defining it as true. My opinion is subject to change according to the revealed facts.
Your opinion has been shown as wrong based on empirical facts and biblical truths. Your positions have largely been falsified. You stick to it despite that though. Which is dishonest and not fitting for a Christian.
 
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Nathan Poe

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I state my opinion and you define it as wrong, then you state your opinion and define it as right.

In the past, your opinion has including executing anyone who needs government support.

You want to point out what's "right" about that?
 
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chingchang

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Socialism - An Evil Concept

Socialism is one of the great evil concepts because it represents robbing from everyone (including the rich) and giving to the poor. I have never seen any valid justification of robbing from everyone (including the rich) to give to the poor.

Socialism has wide public appeal because there is a feeling that someone is going to get something for nothing, but wide public rejection with the reality that some will receive and everyone else has to pay.

Socialist/Democrats want to imply the only way a person can become rich is by abusing the poor. Socialist/Democrats also define everyone as rich that is not poor. The Bible says there is great danger with being either rich or poor.

Proverbs 30:8-9 states, "Remove far from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food convenient for me: Lest I be full, and deny thee, and say, Who is the LORD? Or lest I be poor, and steal, and take the name of my God in vain."

There certainly are those that became rich by taking advantage of the weaknesses of the poor by selling inappropriate contentography, sex, drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, etc. to the poor, but I believe most people live comfortably by hard work, following the commandments/doctrines of the Bible and God's blessings.

There certainly are those that are poor because they have physical and mental limitations, but I believe most people that are poor, got to be poor because of their weakness for inappropriate contentography, sex, drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, etc.

The concept of redistribution of wealth becomes just stealing unless there is a justification that everyone (including the rich) deserve to be robbed and the poor deserve to be given to.

Lots of people like the concept of Robin Hood who robbed from the evil rich and gave to the virtuous poor, but I worry that a lot was robbed and only a little ever got to the poor. I worry that the wealth redistribution (Socialism) of the Democrats really means robbing from the rich, stuffing their pockets, then if there is anything left, they give to the poor.

Giving to the poor is evil, if the money is used by the poor to continue to buy inappropriate contentography, sex, drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, etc.

The purpose of repentance in the Bible is to cast off the old man (inappropriate contentography, sex, drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, etc.) and begin again (be reborn) with the old sins forgiven. If money is given to a person and they do not change their lifestyle, the money was wasted.

There are those that say they would rather see 100 evil poor people fed than to see one poor person starve to death, but feeding the 100 evil people leads to 200 evil people and sooner or later all die because there is no money to feed any, thus all starve to death.

The Bible says the wages of sin is death, and Socialism is not going to change that. The death may not be due to starvation, but it will come from AIDS, STDS, lung cancer, liver failure, etc. that are associated with an the unhealthy Atheistic Lifestyle.

The Bible advocates person charity. The Bible does not advocate Socialism.

The solution of the problem of both the rich, the poor an all those in between is not through Socialism, but rather by accepting Jesus Christ as Lord/Savior and committing to following the commandments/doctrines of the Bible.

Socialism is feeding a person for a day, but Christianity is teaching a person how to fish.

Socialism does more harm than good, thus the people of America would be best served if the government would get out of all Socialistic (Entitlement) programs.

Republicans have yet to prove to me that they totally support Christian principles, but democrats have proven they do "not" support Christian Principles.

Quit watching Faux News already! Jeeesh. Here's the deal...Yehshua...our Lord...advocated a renunciation of material wealth. In the book of Acts...Christians gave everything they had up for community property. If you have read and understood your Bible...you'd know that. Money isn't evil...it is the love of money that all evil finds its roots. In order for people to be rich they generally have to love money. If they didn't love the money...they'd do what Yeshua instructed and give it up.

CC
 
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ResoluteShaman

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I read the original posting, and all I can say is this poster has deep seated issues and hatreds.

The Bible, as so oft quoted, does encourage charity and helping your fellow man, as in the parable of the man giving away his last coin to someone in need. (as in humanity, not just some buddy that needs help seeding his new $2000 weed free lawn).

And I have met very devout Democrat Christians who are not just Sunday Christians, of which many Republicans are (Those are the ones that spout 'family values' but cheat on their wives, abuse their kids, neglect their kids)

Poverty, real poverty, isn't the fault of the poor person. To say it is clearly shows that the poster is one of those 'should be ashamed but will never be because of overweening self righteousness' Sunday Christians, who hasn't a clue.
 
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MacFall

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There's a big difference between charity and compulsory wealth redistribution. They're about as different as love-making and rape. However I do agree that most American Christians aren't nearly as charitable as they should be. And it would also help if churches did more to minister to their communities and less building of multi-million dollar facilities and the like.
 
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jgarden

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No "system" is inherently "good" or "evil" - its success or failure is largely dependent on how well the leadership responds to the needs of people it is supposed to serve.

Despite the superficial differences, most "systems" (capitalist, socialist, communist, etc.) contain institutions that are remarkably similar - a military, congress/parliament, justice system, banking, CIA/KGB etc

The longer a "system" exits, the greater the chance that it will be subverted to serve the best interests of a few. Once the affluent "few" become firmly entrenched and assume that the "masses" are nothing more than "sheep to be sheared," the stage is set for a steady decline.

Warren Edward Buffett - Class War

It's class warfare, my class is winning, but they shouldn't be.
CNN Interview, May 25 2005, in arguing the need to raise taxes on the rich

There’s class warfare, all right, but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.
New York Times, November 26, 2006]


http://e-worldeconomy.net/index.php/warren_buffett/quotes/category/class_war/
America has now reached that "tipping point" where 1% of the population currently controls more of the nation's private wealth than the other 90%.

Wealth translates into political, economic and social influence, power and control in both the public and private sectors.

In an age where information is now so readily available, it is only a matter of time before the majority of the population lose faith in the "system" and become increasingly resentful as to whose best interests are being served/not served.
 
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clirus

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As the daughter of a missionary, having lived in third world countries and seen poverty the likes of which most Americans are incapable of conceiving, I would like to say how sickened and shamed I am that any "Christian" would blame poverty on the victims.

Millions of good Christians around the world live in horrific want. They go to church. They obey Christ. They die of starvation.

Claiming they are at fault for their own poverty shows a lack of humanity that is breathtaking. Stating this position publicly brings shame to Christians everywhere. I cannot begin to express how much.

I am almost afraid to discuss poverty with another person that is a member of the "Cult of the Nobel Poor", since I seem to be gaining a lot of enemies. However, I will try to summarized the past discussions so you can make your own opinion.

There is no question that poverty exist, the question is what causes poverty and thus what is the best cure for poverty. The two most discussed reasons for poverty and solutions are:

1) Most poverty is caused by the abuse of the poor by the rich and the denial of opportunity, so the solution is Socialism and redistribution of wealth. This reason for poverty requires defining most of the rich as evil and most of business as evil.

2) Most poverty is caused by excessive wine, women and song (or from a Christian perspective, failure to follow the commandments/doctrines of the Bible), so the solution is salvation (accepting Jesus Christ as Lord/Savior and committing to following the commandments/doctrines of the Bible). This reason for poverty defines most poverty as being the result of the personal decisions of the poor. This solution still allows Capitalism as a valid economic model.

This discussion of causes of poverty has profound political implications because the Socialism solution is advocated most by democrats and the Christian Capitalism solution is advocated most by Republicans.

Some would say that the Christian Capitalism solution is ridiculous because most of the poor are Christians, however a closer examination reveals that most of the poor call themselves Christians, but are deeply into the worship of mountain gods, etc.

I first heard of this as part of a PBS show about a country in South America. The people attended a Catholic service on Sunday, then prayed to a mountain god the rest of the week.

Then I found out that white rum and coca was considered to be a necessity of those that called themselves Christians.

Saw a recent PBS show on Somalia that said chewing some narcotic plant was creating a water shortage.

Some would say there is no linkage between poverty and personal decisions, but a woman with an illegitimate child is in instant poverty. Some would say many women are raped or the custom is casual sex, but that custom needs to be rebuked and it would be better for a woman to die by killing (defending herself) during a rape than to carry the genetic of a rapist into the future.

Both adultery and homosexuality are condemned by the Bible yet both are being allowed, because Socialism/democrats have a soft on sin approach where the person is not responsible, but rather society.

I believe God requires every Christian to be missionaries, but I believe missionaries need to present the gospel without bringing a sandwich. If the person accepts Jesus Christ as Lord/Savior and commits to following the commandants/doctrines of the Bible, then they are entitled to personal Christian charity of one Christian to another as required by the Bible. If they refuse to give up the excess wine, women and song, they should be given Bill Gates telephone number and let Bill Gates deal with their poverty.

Some say the Good Samaritan Parable requires Christians extend Charity to Atheists, but I believe the Good Samaritan Parable only applies if you cannot determine quickly what the person is. A Christian needs to quickly find out what the person is and then either offer further Christian charity or to offer salvation.

Some would say the children are innocent no matter what the status of the parents, but the sins of the fathers are visited on the children, so the concept of innocent children is not totally valid. I believe the best way to deal with innocent children is to deal with the guilty parents.

So what do you say?
 
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Archaeopteryx

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I'm sorry, but I struggle to leave when I read such absolute drivel worthy of a swift and thorough refutation. Why? Quite frankly because I think it is an insult to call this rubbish 'Christian'.

2) Most poverty is caused by excessive wine, women and song (or from a Christian perspective, failure to follow the commandments/doctrines of the Bible), so the solution is salvation (accepting Jesus Christ as Lord/Savior and committing to following the commandments/doctrines of the Bible). This reason for poverty defines most poverty as being the result of the personal decisions of the poor. This solution still allows Capitalism as a valid economic model.

I ask you again Clirus, a question that you avoided earlier:

To verify that there is, in fact, a significant association between two categorical variables, such as Atheism and 'disease, death and destruction', you would need to set a p value (usually 0.05 in behavioural sciences), determine a research paradigm, and then conduct a Chi-square test for independence and relatedness on the data ascertained. And even then, your results and their interpretation would be open to severe scrutiny due to the high possibility of extraneous variables accounting for apparently significant results.

So I wonder... how much empirical research have you done to conclude that "Atheistic activity does lead to disease, death, destruction and poverty", or in other words, that there is a statistically significant correlation between Atheism and disease, death, destruction and poverty???*

* Keeping in mind that correlation too does not necessarily imply causation.
** Keeping in mind that statical significance testing is an important component of empirical research.​

Until you can prove it substantially and statistically... you're just speculating. And while you're speculating, there is no compelling reason to believe your claim to be true.

Some would say that the Christian Capitalism solution is ridiculous because most of the poor are Christians, however a closer examination reveals that most of the poor call themselves Christians, but are deeply into the worship of mountain gods, etc.

I first heard of this as part of a PBS show about a country in South America. The people attended a Catholic service on Sunday, then prayed to a mountain god the rest of the week

That would require you to prove that most of the poor who claim to be Christian are actually not. A proof you have yet to provide. In fact, you have yet to provide proof for your claim that most people are poor because it's their fault.

Some would say there is no linkage between poverty and personal decisions, but a woman with an illegitimate child is in instant poverty.

Who? No-one on here has denied a link between poverty and personal decisions.

Some would say many women are raped or the custom is casual sex, but that custom needs to be rebuked and it would be better for a woman to die by killing (defending herself) during a rape than to carry the genetic of a rapist into the future

Wow. That is incredible. You would rather see a woman die from a rape than survive it. I do not need to go into how terrible that is. It's obvious.

Some say the Good Samaritan Parable requires Christians extend Charity to Atheists, but I believe the Good Samaritan Parable only applies if you cannot determine quickly what the person is. A Christian needs to quickly find out what the person is and then either offer further Christian charity or to offer salvation.

And your interpretation of the Good Samaritan parable is ill-founded, and that has been shown already, on numerous occasions. What you teach is incompatible with the very meaning conveyed in the parable itself. And therefore, it cannot be counted among the doctrines of Christianity, ever. So move on... perhaps you should consider finding or founding another religion where you and your opinions would feel right at home. For it is plain as day that a large part of your opinion is incongruent with Christ's teachings.
 
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LightHorseman

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It may be your opinion that is what I said, but that is not what I said, unless you can provide a reference.
A better way to deal with this situation is to get rid of guilty parents. America needs to have an Absolute Paternity Law that say parents must provide for their children. Failure to provide for their children (as proved by asking for government assistance) should be punishable by death using the three strikes and you are out concept http://www.christianforums.com/t7455590/#post54435145
Like... this?
 
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clirus

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No "system" is inherently "good" or "evil" - its success or failure is largely dependent on how well the leadership responds to the needs of people it is supposed to serve.

Despite the superficial differences, most "systems" (capitalist, socialist, communist, etc.) contain institutions that are remarkably similar - a military, congress/parliament, justice system, banking, CIA/KGB etc

The longer a "system" exits, the greater the chance that it will be subverted to serve the best interests of a few. Once the affluent "few" become firmly entrenched and assume that the "masses" are nothing more than "sheep to be sheared," the stage is set for a steady decline.


America has now reached that "tipping point" where 1% of the population currently controls more of the nation's private wealth than the other 90%.

Wealth translates into political, economic and social influence, power and control in both the public and private sectors.

In an age where information is now so readily available, it is only a matter of time before the majority of the population lose faith in the "system" and become increasingly resentful as to whose best interests are being served/not served.

As you deal with Socialists and they see problems with Socialism, they become cynics that don't believe any system works, but I believe Democracy, Christianly and Capitalism is the best system. I believe Democracy, Christianity and Capitalism that is advocated by Republicans is better than Democracy, Atheism and Socialism advocated by democrats.

With a democracy, the most are always in control, thus those the become violent are always in the minority. If the minorities attempt violence the violence should be dealt with by violence.

Wealth does lead to power and power can be abused. Based on what Warren Buffett says, I would conclude Warren Buffett is an evil person, but that does not prove all people who are rich are evil.

I believe that under Democracy, Christianity and Capitalism, Christianity can deal with evil people that become rich and abuse their power.

In order to preserve Democracy, Christianity and Capitalism, it is necessary to find Christians to run for office and to elect Christians to office.

Atheists in office will never support Christians policies.
 
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Willtor

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Some would say the children are innocent no matter what the status of the parents, but the sins of the fathers are visited on the children, so the concept of innocent children is not totally valid. I believe the best way to deal with innocent children is to deal with the guilty parents.

So what do you say?

I say Jesus disagrees with you.

"and whoever gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones in the name of a disciple—truly I tell you, none of these will lose their reward."
-- Matthew 10:24
 
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Greeble

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"I believe God requires every Christian to be missionaries, but I believe missionaries need to present the gospel without bringing a sandwich"

I can't even begin to describe how utterly appalling that whole post was.

Let me guess. You are SOUTHERN Baptist by chance? The only Christian church that refused to participate in the city-wide interfaith group my father helped organize that included not only sharing the gospel but helping people learn to read, learn to help each other, provide for childcare and yes, feed them and clothe them.

That explains a lot.

It also relieves me of having to read anymore of your ignorant railing against the very least of these HIS brothers.

As you do unto them.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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"I believe God requires every Christian to be missionaries, but I believe missionaries need to present the gospel without bringing a sandwich"

I can't even begin to describe how utterly appalling that whole post was.

Let me guess. You are SOUTHERN Baptist by chance? The only Christian church that refused to participate in the city-wide interfaith group my father helped organize that included not only sharing the gospel but helping people learn to read, learn to help each other, provide for childcare and yes, feed them and clothe them.

That explains a lot.

It also relieves me of having to read anymore of your ignorant railing against the very least of these HIS brothers.

As you do unto them.

You haven't heard that half of it.

According to the gospel of Clirus, it is right to:
do whatever it takes to win in a war, censor the press during war-time and label Pacifists and protestors as traitors, deny life-saving assistance to a person who is not Christian even if it is certain they will die without our immediate help, make orphans of children whose parents struggle to provide for their families, kill disobedient children if the Bible commands it, ensure that women have their place in the home and not beyond it, and a plethora of other claims ranging from outrageous to absurd, including the suggestion that all non-Christians are Atheists, and subtly implying that Atheists necessarily have a particular 'lifestyle', and most recently, the unproven and unqualified claim that most poverty is the result of personal failure to adhere to the Bible, and that no help should be given to anyone else except the widows and orphans of our own religion (Don't worry, given Clirus' policy on parents there would be many widows and orphans in such a society). To add even more insult to injury: the suggestion that it is preferable for a woman to die in a rape rather than survive and raise the child that results from it, and a whole myriad of broad stereotypes designed to lump all the groups that she doesn't like together into some seemingly monomorphic category.
 
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LightHorseman

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You haven't heard that half of it.

According to the gospel of Clirus, it is right to:
do whatever it takes to win in a war, censor the press during war-time and label Pacifists and protestors as traitors, deny life-saving assistance to a person who is not Christian even if it is certain they will die without our immediate help, make orphans of children whose parents struggle to provide for their families, kill disobedient children if the Bible commands it, ensure that women have their place in the home and not beyond it, and a plethora of other claims ranging from outrageous to absurd, including the suggestion that all non-Christians are Atheists, and subtly implying that Atheists necessarily have a particular 'lifestyle', and most recently, the unproven and unqualified claim that most poverty is the result of personal failure to adhere to the Bible, and that no help should be given to anyone else except the widows and orphans of our own religion (Don't worry, given Clirus' policy on parents there would be many widows and orphans in such a society). To add even more insult to injury: the suggestion that it is preferable for a woman to die in a rape rather than survive and raise the child that results from it, and a whole myriad of broad stereotypes designed to lump all the groups that she doesn't like together into some seemingly monomorphic category.
Not to mention routinely contradicts himself, and then denies making statements when it is plain for all to see precisely what he said. e.g. http://www.christianforums.com/t7449939-18/#post54476005

Personally, I can tolerate people having bizare and insane personal beliefs. When they are inconsistent about them, THATS when I get mad.
 
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