I'm really confused.

[_Shannon_]

I'm talking about the practice where we are told to empty our minds and do all kinds of wacky poses and movements, and we empty our minds and "pray" in this almost hypnotic state where we are in a trance... that is dangerous to do becuase then we are open to the suggestion of demons.

Scientifically we are far more empty than full--we are dust and unto dust we shall return--and that can be a very useful and humbling reality. Though as Christians all of these realities also swirl around the reality that though we are nothing--we are created in the image and likeness of God, and through Grace we surrender our nothingness.

We aren't emptying any different from how Jesus empties Himself on the Cross. Using your body rhythms, breath etc. as a tool to avoid distraction. You cannot be full, if you aren't first emptied. Of course, we only create a prayerful, recollected environment so the Holy Spirit can do this for us--but Christian prayer has a focus--and it is the Trinity who is Love. That is pretty much the only difference.

I don't expect you to understand--you come across as being far too busy figuring out what to be afraid of and what everyone is doing wrong tomake space to be vulnerable in prayer.

 

[Rhamiel]

As long as one switches Rites because they connect with it or prefer that Rite and not becuase they think the LR is defective or wrong.

I'm still hearing a lot of y'all say, you think it's defective, that it lacks something...

well said, all the Rites of the Church preach the true Gospel and hold to the Sacred Traditions of our faith, if anyone does switch, it should only be because of personal preferance, not a search for the"truth" because the truth of Christ can be found in every part of the Church

Some people respond better to WR than ER and vice-versa. They should go where they grow best. You can call this a problem with them, but for that individual, the fact still remains that they will be better nourished in the other rite. Surely there are people who always think the grass is greener on the other side. That's a separate issue. However, if they investigate the grass on the other side and find that it's a kind of grass they prefer to where they are right now, then perhaps moving the lawn chair makes sense. It's not that they are saying that grass is superior or healthier, it just matches their tastes better.

I have to say I am puzzled at how defensive you are being in regards to this. I mean, her priest is supporting her in this decision. It's not like she just read a book or saw a video and said "that's it, I'm changing no matter what". She seems to be going about it in a very level-headed way. Would you honestly be as strong against this if it were the other way around? that is, an ER feeling drawn to the WR for spiritual reasons. If they said they feel more spiritually nourished within the WR and they have spoken to their spiritual guide about this, I fail to see the problem from a Catholic POV.

Josh

if I may be so bold as to speak for why some here seem to be defensive
Latin Rite Catholics get sick and tired of being told how "legalistic" they are and how the EO is soooo much more mystical and we can not even understand, because we are Westerners we lack the capacity to even understand the Eastern Orthodox Church
I do not want to turn this into a RC vs EO type thread, but I can understand why some are defensive
the Latin Rite is very mystical, Eucharistic adoration is something I would call a mystical type prayer and it is not found in the East, the Rosary requires meditation on the Mysteries of Christ and our Lady
St.Frances, St. John of the Cross and many other Latin Catholic Saints have wonderful writtings on the mystic traditions of the west

 

[_Shannon_]

I don't have a problem with Gwen switching Rites... I'm talking in a general sense.

But if this switch leads her (or anyone for that matter, generalizing) to Orthodoxy, then somethins rotten in Denmark, no offense.

Be honest--you think the West is superior. Period. The East is the red-headed step child--toward which you only reluctantly give your assent. Josh you will likely learn that without some major shift--trying to speak reasonably in OBOB is akin to trying to find water in a desert. It's there sometimes--but very far and few between. Mostly it's mirages all full of their own self importance who believe with all of their might that they are oases.

This thread was started by a real person--with real problems. I am sure the past 10n pages have been truly helpful.

 

[benedictaoo]

well said, all the Rites of the Church preach the true Gospel and hold to the Sacred Traditions of our faith, if anyone does switch, it should only be because of personal preferance, not a search for the"truth" because the truth of Christ can be found in every part of the Church

if I may be so bold as to speak for why some here seem to be defensive
Latin Rite Catholics get sick and tired of being told how "legalistic" they are and how the EO is soooo much more mystical and we can not even understand, because we are Westerners we lack the capacity to even understand the Eastern Orthodox Church
I do not want to turn this into a RC vs EO type thread, but I can understand why some are defensive
the Latin Rite is very mystical, Eucharistic adoration is something I would call a mystical type prayer and it is not found in the East, the Rosary requires meditation on the Mysteries of Christ and our Lady
St.Frances, St. John of the Cross and many other Latin Catholic Saints have wonderful writtings on the mystic traditions of the west

Very well said Rhamiel.

 

[benedictaoo]

Be honest--you think the West is superior. Period. The East is the red-headed step child--toward which you only reluctantly give your assent. Josh you will likely learn that without some major shift--trying to speak reasonably in OBOB is akin to trying to find water in a desert. It's there sometimes--but very far and few between. Mostly it's mirages all full of their own self importance who believe with all of their might that they are oases.

No. not at all. and I don't have to defend myself to you or convince you either.

This thread was started by a real person--with real problems. I am sure the past 10n pages have been truly helpful.

here we go, you making everything a personal attack... gee, Shannon, give it a rest, stop going there please.

 

[benedictaoo]

Yes it's always nice to get to act with impunity.

All five of you can go back to business as usual.

I am reminded again how full of awfulness and lack of Chrisitan character OBOB has.

Shannon, take responsibility for your own actions and stop passing the buck.

 

[Dark_Lite]

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​

 

[Rhamiel]

Yes it's always nice to get to act with impunity.

All five of you can go back to business as usual.

I am reminded again how full of awfulness and lack of Chrisitan character OBOB has.

you know that the Church is a hospital for sinners
we are hurt and wounded and make mistakes and hurt others
I pray that i will be more open, more loving, less selfish
I do not want to seem overly dogmatic, but i also do not want my church to be attacked, I am not saying that you are attacking the Church, nor do I think anyone else is... I might just be overly sensative
as Bene stated, anything that leads someone to leave the Catholic Church is bad, switching Rites might be a needed step, but if done for the wrong reasons it will only cause people to become disillisioned with the Church or maybe Christianity as a whole

 

[Anhelyna]

And all this started because Gwendolyn accompanied by her Priest went to visit an Orthodox Church where they were made very welcome , and are now intending to visit an Eastern Catholic Church.

At no time has she said that the Latin Church is defective in any way .

 

[Joshua G.]

well said, all the Rites of the Church preach the true Gospel and hold to the Sacred Traditions of our faith, if anyone does switch, it should only be because of personal preferance, not a search for the"truth" because the truth of Christ can be found in every part of the Church

if I may be so bold as to speak for why some here seem to be defensive
Latin Rite Catholics get sick and tired of being told how "legalistic" they are and how the EO is soooo much more mystical and we can not even understand, because we are Westerners we lack the capacity to even understand the Eastern Orthodox Church
I do not want to turn this into a RC vs EO type thread, but I can understand why some are defensive
the Latin Rite is very mystical, Eucharistic adoration is something I would call a mystical type prayer and it is not found in the East, the Rosary requires meditation on the Mysteries of Christ and our Lady
St.Frances, St. John of the Cross and many other Latin Catholic Saints have wonderful writtings on the mystic traditions of the west

Wait, what EOs expressed in this thread that the ER is superior? The only people I had seen Benedictoo take issue with for this specific complaint in this thread were Catholics.

I'm sorry for having offended you Rhamiel. From having read your past posts, I got the feeling that you and I were pretty much on the same page.

Josh

 

[Joshua G.]

This thread was started by a real person--with real problems. I am sure the past 10n pages have been truly helpful.

That's true. thank you for reminding me of that.

Gwen, I am sorry for helping turn this into a battle ground. My prayers are honestly with you. I am sorry for your struggle but know that you will row through it. Forgive me, Sister.

Josh

 

[mark46]

Perhaps reading the document might help us understand what the CDF was warning against. Also, we should look for statements specifically about Father Keating and centering and contemplative prayer. I'm sure we'd all like to read any censure of Pennington or Keatin (or centering prayer or contemplative prayer) by the Vatican.

Contemplative prayer has been part of the church since the beginning and has been an essential part of the life of many religious communities.

The Vatican document has warnings with regard to accepting Hindu and Buddhist practices without a Christ-centered context. The backdrop was that many Catholics were (and are) moving to Eastern religions because of the appeal of some of the practices, practices by the way which are common to almost all traditions. I would note that there are contemplative and mystical traditions in almost all faiths. There is also a warning with regard to seeking the pleasures of medititation as an end in of themselves, as escape.

In the end, we can relegate Catholics to repeating the time honored prayers of the Church. Or we can help those who wish to explore a Christ-centered deeper prayer life. We can require that all prayer be done under the direct direction of a spiritual director. Or we can allow and celebrate the prayer life of those who would go deeper into their relationship with Christ.

The Church has a choice. We each have choices. IMHO, to discourage contemplative prayer is not the road to travel.

The Vatican and her documents from the CDF condemn centering prayer. So there is no centering prayer in the "Catholic tradition"

 

[JimR-OCDS]

benedictaoo

Mind telling me what rosary is not focused on Christ??? What prayer do we pray that is not Christ centered??

Buddhist use Rosary beads. I'm not sure what prayers the say, but I would think they are not centered on Christ.

I'm talking about the practice where we are told to empty our minds and do all kinds of wacky poses and movements, and we empty our minds and "pray" in this almost hypnotic state where we are in a trance... that is dangerous to do becuase then we are open to the suggestion of demons

But thats not Centering Prayer, but something entirely different.

Jim

 

[Gwendolyn]

We do focus more on scholasticism in the West. The way we go about things, even our theology, is very "legal" in terminology and such. Very much like a judicial system. It comes from our Roman heritage - the Romans themselves were very legal and systematic in the way they went about their dealings. That approach, coupled with scholasticism, has inevitably shaped our faith and the way we go about things in the West.

People may like to throw accusations of "legalism", trying to say that the Western rite is all categories and systems and classifications and no faith, but we know that isn't true. But we can't deny that we are legalistic, scholastic, and systematic. All you have to do is sit through one class in moral theology to see it. I'm taking a moral theology course right now. That approach just doesn't nourish me, and that's all I really know right now. I don't know what will nourish me, but I know that scholasticism isn't it.

I am glad that we do have the Eastern rites within our Church. Remember, the East was evangelised first (as JPII reminds us in his encyclical Orientale Lumen). The eastern Catholics are just as Catholic as we are. To imply that someone who finds life and beauty in the Eastern rites is somehow "running away" or is maybe even "just not Catholic enough" is just silly.

Last night I helped a Maronite priest. I helped him set up for liturgy and then took care of everything afterward. His community is very small, and they no longer have a church of their own (they had to sell it). The people were very devout and very, very grateful to my priest for inviting them to celebrate their liturgy in our chapel. I don't know a word of arabic, but it was a lovely liturgy. Chanted. I am glad that I have the opportunity to be exposed to the Eastern rites.

My priest and I are going to a liturgy of the presanctified gifts on March 24. I am grateful to him for supporting me in this. It is just very moving for me to be able to have a priest who truly is a spiritual father, looking out for me and ensuring that he does whatever he can to help my faith grow.

 

[MariaRegina]

We do focus more on scholasticism in the West. The way we go about things, even our theology, is very "legal" in terminology and such. Very much like a judicial system. It comes from our Roman heritage - the Romans themselves were very legal and systematic in the way they went about their dealings. That approach, coupled with scholasticism, has inevitably shaped our faith and the way we go about things in the West.

People may like to throw accusations of "legalism", trying to say that the Western rite is all categories and systems and classifications and no faith, but we know that isn't true. But we can't deny that we are legalistic, scholastic, and systematic. All you have to do is sit through one class in moral theology to see it. I'm taking a moral theology course right now. That approach just doesn't nourish me, and that's all I really know right now. I don't know what will nourish me, but I know that scholasticism isn't it.

I am glad that we do have the Eastern rites within our Church. Remember, the East was evangelised first (as JPII reminds us in his encyclical Orientale Lumen). The eastern Catholics are just as Catholic as we are. To imply that someone who finds life and beauty in the Eastern rites is somehow "running away" or is maybe even "just not Catholic enough" is just silly.

Last night I helped a Maronite priest. I helped him set up for liturgy and then took care of everything afterward. His community is very small, and they no longer have a church of their own (they had to sell it). The people were very devout and very, very grateful to my priest for inviting them to celebrate their liturgy in our chapel. I don't know a word of arabic, but it was a lovely liturgy. Chanted. I am glad that I have the opportunity to be exposed to the Eastern rites.

My priest and I are going to a liturgy of the presanctified gifts on March 24. I am grateful to him for supporting me in this. It is just very moving for me to be able to have a priest who truly is a spiritual father, looking out for me and ensuring that he does whatever he can to help my faith grow.

What a beautifully written post!

I think the Maronite Divine Liturgy is in Aramaic, not Arabic. Ask the Priest. I went to the Maronite Church in Atlanta, Georgia and it was totally in Aramaic, the language Christ spoke. The priest was married and introduced us to his wife. The parishioners were very loving and stuffed us with their delicious food and showered us with gifts. Ethnically, I am French-Lebanese and my ancestors were Maronites (from New Orleans, Louisana). This was kept secret from me because my mom did not want me to know of my heritage. My aunt was the one who introduced me to the Maronites and then I found the Melkites in North Hollywood. I felt immediately at home. When my dad found out, he came with me to visit the church and give a donation. He told me, "You are home."

God bless you and grant you many years, Gwen.

 

[Rhamiel]

Wait, what EOs expressed in this thread that the ER is superior? The only people I had seen Benedictoo take issue with for this specific complaint in this thread were Catholics.

I'm sorry for having offended you Rhamiel. From having read your past posts, I got the feeling that you and I were pretty much on the same page.

Josh

dear brother, i was not refering to you or anyone else in this thread, just things i have heard from members of the Eastern Orthodox Church in the past, you have not offended me at all
I was just trying to say I can understand why some Latin Catholics are reacting so strongly to this thread

 

[Rhamiel]

We do focus more on scholasticism in the West. The way we go about things, even our theology, is very "legal" in terminology and such. Very much like a judicial system. It comes from our Roman heritage - the Romans themselves were very legal and systematic in the way they went about their dealings. That approach, coupled with scholasticism, has inevitably shaped our faith and the way we go about things in the West.

People may like to throw accusations of "legalism", trying to say that the Western rite is all categories and systems and classifications and no faith, but we know that isn't true. But we can't deny that we are legalistic, scholastic, and systematic. All you have to do is sit through one class in moral theology to see it. I'm taking a moral theology course right now. That approach just doesn't nourish me, and that's all I really know right now. I don't know what will nourish me, but I know that scholasticism isn't it.

I am glad that we do have the Eastern rites within our Church. Remember, the East was evangelised first (as JPII reminds us in his encyclical Orientale Lumen). The eastern Catholics are just as Catholic as we are. To imply that someone who finds life and beauty in the Eastern rites is somehow "running away" or is maybe even "just not Catholic enough" is just silly.

Last night I helped a Maronite priest. I helped him set up for liturgy and then took care of everything afterward. His community is very small, and they no longer have a church of their own (they had to sell it). The people were very devout and very, very grateful to my priest for inviting them to celebrate their liturgy in our chapel. I don't know a word of arabic, but it was a lovely liturgy. Chanted. I am glad that I have the opportunity to be exposed to the Eastern rites.

My priest and I are going to a liturgy of the presanctified gifts on March 24. I am grateful to him for supporting me in this. It is just very moving for me to be able to have a priest who truly is a spiritual father, looking out for me and ensuring that he does whatever he can to help my faith grow.

have you tried to change how you think? we have a history of legalism because God gave the law to the prophets, to look at it that way makes sense, Christ did not come to do away with the law but to fulfill it

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I honestly think that the Latin Rite is mystical too. If a person takes classes on moral theology, - which is totally fine, nothing wrong with that - it might be difficult to get that impression there. But moral theology doesn't need to be mystical, it needs to be useful. The devotions, etc, in the Catholic Church are very mystical imo. There's a lot about the Eucharist, thinking of Christ's suffering... that's where we get the Stations of the Cross... there's also the Rosary, the Sacred Heart devotion, etc. Adoration can be very mystical. It's all based on love for Christ..we understand His love and suffering and share in it... it's not based on spiritual experiences but on love (and so are the Eastern devotions)

God bless

 

[Rhamiel]

I honestly think that the Latin Rite is mystical too. If a person takes classes on moral theology, - which is totally fine, nothing wrong with that - it might be difficult to get that impression there. But moral theology doesn't need to be mystical, it needs to be useful. The devotions, etc, in the Catholic Church are very mystical imo. There's a lot about the Eucharist, thinking of Christ's suffering... that's where we get the Stations of the Cross... there's also the Rosary, the Sacred Heart devotion, etc. Adoration can be very mystical. It's all based on love for Christ..we understand His love and suffering and share in it... it's not based on spiritual experiences but on love (and so are the Eastern devotions)

God bless

QTF, you always add so much to a thread Monica

 

[andreha]

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