I'm really confused.

[Rhamiel]

i do not encourage EO to convert to the Catholic faith, for similar reasons as to why you said you do not encourage Catholics to become EO, I pray for unity between our Churches and I try to foster good will, I offten fail at the second part of that.

 

[MariaRegina]

i do not encourage EO to convert to the Catholic faith, for similar reasons as to why you said you do not encourage Catholics to become EO, I pray for unity between our Churches and I try to foster good will, I offten fail at the second part of that.

God bless you and grant you many years, Rhamiel.

I forgot to add. Byzantine Chant sounds so weird to western ears because of the presence of the diabolus. Tone 2, 6, and sometimes 4 have that very exotic sounding diabolus. If you listened to the PBS Series of the Chronicles of Narnia, you will recognize the trumpet call announcing the arrival of the Aslan the Lion is the diabolus.

 

[benedictaoo]

i do not encourage EO to convert to the Catholic faith.

They don't need to convert if the their churches will reunite with Rome... and drop this notion that everything has to be the "Eastern" way...

 

[Anglian]

My dear bro, Anglian, Marie Regina has been around these forums for a long, long time. I know what she was trying to offer. She switched rites... and then left the Catholic Church for the Orthodox, just sayin'...

One does need to be careful that "switching rites" is not heading in that direction because I'd bet a lot that's where this is headed.

If we are Latin Rite Christians, then that's what we are. If one is having issues with their faith, switching rites is not always the answer, laying the blame on the feet of the Latin Rite is not fair. Does the Latin Rite have issues with it's clergy and bishops in the west, specially America? You darn right it does but switching rites is just abandoning the Rite, I feel is just running away.

Dear sister,

I can see where you are coming from, and certanly if it were a question os 'switching rites' there would be very legitimate objections, and you make them.

But as our sister Maria Regina points out, that is not what she is saying or doing. She, for her own reasons, made a complete change; she did so, as she says, in circumstances which tested her to the full. She knows both traditions, and whilst clearly has a particular view now, it is an informed one we can respect - even though we may not agree with it

peace,

Anglian

 

[Joshua G.]

If we are Latin Rite Christians, then that's what we are. If one is having issues with their faith, switching rites is not always the answer, laying the blame on the feet of the Latin Rite is not fair. Does the Latin Rite have issues with it's clergy and bishops in the west, specially America? You darn right it does but switching rites is just abandoning the Rite, I feel is just running away.

I may be overstepping bounds here and if I am, report me, delete it, no hard feelings.

I can sympathize with this point of view (I have a big however, later on...). It is true that some switch rites to run away from a problem rather than deal with. Their being Orthodox/Catholic DEPENDS on them having this rite available to them. And that is a problem. In the Orthodox Church we have a handful of Western Rite Parishes. I think that is wonderful and I pray it succeeds (but whatever God's will). There is, however, the danger, that people come to the Orthodox Church on the grounds that they can still go to a western rite parish. In other words, if they had to move, or the parish closed down, they would be tempted to pick up and leave the OC for a parish where they are comfortable. Now, not all (or even most) Western Rite Orthodox are like this. But i have met a few that have given me this vibe and I've prayed for them. Likewise, I wonder how some Eastern Rite Orthodox would deal if all there was in their area (after moving, for example) was a Western Rite Orthodox mission? I imagine many cradles, especially, would think "this isn't Orthodox" and wouldn't go (not most cradles, but surely some) or simply wouldn't feel at home or that it is to their liking. So, with the Western Rite growing as it is in the OC, this is a "problem" we will have to be vigilant of as well.

However (I told ya'!) that said, if one has a choice, why wouldn't they take the rite that helps them grow better? Why in the world would we not encourage them to do this? I understand a Catholic not encouraging a fellow Catholic to become Orthodox and vice-versa and I totally support that pov. But if it is part of the Church that we recognize as the Church, then that is wonderful.

Now, if they end up using the ERC as a stopping point on the way to the EOC, I understand the concern, but would they have been better off in a WC parish? Would that have safe-guarded them somehow? Probably it would have made them only more frustrated and who knows what path they would have taken? Nothing? Nominal Catholic? So, switching rites is not a problem. Were I Catholic, I can't imagine seeing it as "abandoning" a rite. That only propogates the idea that floats around out there that it truly is West vs East in the Catholic Church. But you are all one Church. Gwen has fidelity to the Catholic Church, not to a Rite. I have fidelity to the Orthodox Church, not to the Liturgy of John Chrysostom as much as I love it. And my wife has said that if we had the choice, she would prefer to go to a WR Orthodox parish. But we don't so we go to an ER parish and we grow where we are. But we hold no allegiance to either Rite as long as they are in the Church (as we view Her).

Josh

 

[Joshua G.]

They don't need to convert if the their churches will reunite with Rome... and drop this notion that everything has to be the "Eastern" way...

Where did he say that? I'm confused.

 

[Peripatetic]

Its why we must be Christ centered, over religion centered.

I just found this thread, and haven't read all of the replies, but this is the best advice that you'll find (with the possible modification to "Christ and Bible centered". I honestly believe that a lot of the doubts, anxieties, and finger-pointing between and within church denominations is pleasing to Satan, and maybe even partly comes from him. He'd rather see us obsess about the truth of the Pope's "from the chair" declarations, or the question whether Peter was married, or if Jesus had brothers... rather than looking to understand God and our relationship with Him. The Catholic church (like ALL denominations) has a checkered past, problems in the present, and will still have dysfunction in the future. But it provides a well-matched style of worship for millions.

 

[Joshua G.]

Our Eastern brothers and sisters are taught that their Church is more mystical than that of the 'scholastic' West. I have yet to meet an Orthodox Christian who has studied St. John of the Cross, St. Teresa of Avila or The Cloud of Unknowing or the worlds of Mother Julian. If they had, I hope they would see that our whole Faith is mystical.

It depends what you mean by "studying". I have read Cloud (I thouhgt that was anonyomous and generally attributed to an Anglican Nun (I could be totally off there! and not that it matters if it was a man or woman). I greatly admire St. John of the Cross and his mentor you spoke of. I live is poetry. It is very deep to say the least. I was blessed with the experience of asking for her intercessions some years ago in a chapel built on they very place where St. Theresa of Avila was born.

But, I wonder whether praying the Rosary, like praying the Ave Maria, is not, for Catholics, the equivalent of the Jesus Prayer;

You're Orthodox too, so I am not informing you of anything new, but as one who spent a full year prayer the Rosary with Catholic friends every Wednesday night, (and i loved it) I really don't see much in common expcept the exteriors of beads/knots and repetition. Most of the Rosary is directed to Mary (although ultimately as with any intercesion, to God) and it can be quite complicated. There is nothing wrong with this. But they are very different. The repetitions are broken up would take away from the purpose of the Jesus Prayer which is simply to continuously pray it... dozens to thousands of times for some people. I have always heard Orthodox and Catholics compare the two as if one is just a western/eastern version of the other, and the more I have gotten to "know" the two, the less I am able to see any useful comparison. But, our minds all work differently so, that may just be how I see things.

the Litany of the Blessed Virgin is a very powerful prayer; praying the Stations of the Cross is certainly part of the unitive way.

I love this last one. It's so beautiful.

Everything Maria Regina writes is true of the East, which is, indeed, much given to mysticism; but the West has its own mystical tradition, and I am never quite sure that we Orthodox know that much about it, having been told much about 'scholasticism'. Reading my way recently through some of the work of Aquinas, I am not sure that he is not also a mystic.

Mysticism exists anywhere patristics is valued and the RCC values patristics. While "scholasticism" often becomes the tiresome accusation from the East, good or bad, it is a very true assertion (rather than accusation) and for me it seems to pervade everything in the West, including mysticism. I could be wrong, and certainly there are exceptions to what I am saying (but, that's why they are called exceptions). I'm not stating that such is a bad thing. In fact, it could go to show that even though the West is by and far scholastic in every aspect, at the same time it cannot be denied that the West has a beautiful mystical life as personified by St John of the Cross and so on. So, that would seem to show ME that scholasticism and mysticism are not mutually exclusive endeavors. However, I do think in the East, we would say that the later is far more important the the other. The fool who understands nothing of scholastics but focuses on God with his life is far less a fool than he who understands logistics but is unable to enter into that unspeakable presence of God (that can go for both sides though). That said, those logistics can help one calm the mind so as to focus better on God. We are human beings and we are geared toward making sense of this world with our minds. That's not a bad thing.

I

ndeed, I cannot see how it is possible to be a Christian and not to be mystical...That is where prayerful contemplation within one's own tradition helps. We can be quiet and know He is God.

Agreed.

Josh

 

[Anglian]

Dear Josh,

Thanks for a really good and interesting post.

My experience with the Rosary and the Jesus Prayer are a little different, but I can understand how many would share your experience. For me, there is just an undefinable something about the intercession of the Blessed Theotokos which makes contemplation that much more complete; as I say, I can't define it

I think there is no doubt that there has been an emphasis on scholasticism in the West, but that other, Patristics based tradition has always been there. For me, the works of the Blessed John Henry Newman seem a marvellous example of mysticism within the Catholic tradition, but which speak to Christians from all traditions.

From the point of view of our dear sister Gwendolyn, what matters is that she knows that these things are available where she is.

Again, a really interesting post, for which many thanks.

peace,

Anglian

 

[mark46]

While I agree on the centrality of scripture in our search to understand Chirst, I must agree with Jim. "Christ-centered" is the most useful view for me. To put scripture on the same level as Christ is to misunderstand the role of scripture and to creat an idol.

Finally, "denomination" is a man-made concept, near and dear the hearts of the elder brothers in those church communities. The EO, OO, Anglicans, Lutherans, Calvinists, and the RCC are called denominations by men. It is fine to have different approaches and different ways. Satan smiles when we continue to argue and fight wars on denominational lines. We separate ourselves from our brethren for many reasons. Few make much sense.

In my mind, each of us needs to find a church community where will go spriritually and where we can do God's work, helping others to go spritually and helping those in need.

When we are at the gates of Heaven, we will not be asked which church we attended each week.
====================
BTW, do you think there would be any denominations if we based membership only on whether we affirm the Apostle's Creed and the Nicene Creed? Over the past 50 years, I have occasion to attend many churches for various reasons, to study "denominations", and to discuss and teach doctrine with many Christians. In the end, we all believe the creeds.

When choosing a pastor many years ago, our local search team had a member who didn't ask any questions until the candidates were ready to leave. He then had one question. You pray the two creeds. Do you believe every statement in the creeds? Only one candidate looked him in the eye and affirmed that he did. That was 15 years ago. He is still the senior pastor of a vibrant church community.
============================
Christainity is losing ground in many countries of the world. I submit that it very difficult for outsiders to step on the ark of freedom from this world if all they see on the ark is bickering Christians.

I just found this thread, and haven't read all of the replies, but this is the best advice that you'll find (with the possible modification to "Christ and Bible centered". I honestly believe that a lot of the doubts, anxieties, and finger-pointing between and within church denominations is pleasing to Satan, and maybe even partly comes from him. He'd rather see us obsess about the truth of the Pope's "from the chair" declarations, or the question whether Peter was married, or if Jesus had brothers... rather than looking to understand God and our relationship with Him. The Catholic church (like ALL denominations) has a checkered past, problems in the present, and will still have dysfunction in the future. But it provides a well-matched style of worship for millions.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Joshua G

It depends what you mean by "studying". I have read Cloud (I thouhgt that was anonyomous and generally attributed to an Anglican Nun (I could be totally off there! and not that it matters if it was a man or woman.

Its believed that a Benedictine Monk in England wrote the "Cloud of Unknowing." There is even speculation on the monks name which I've seen before, but can't remember the name.


Jim

 

[mark46]

from wiki
The Cloud of Unknowing draws on the mystical tradition of Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite, which focuses on the via negativa road to discovering God as a pure entity, beyond any capacity of mental conception and so without any definitive image or form. This tradition has reputedly inspired generations of mystical searchers from John Scotus Erigena, through Book of Taliesin, Nicholas of Cusa and St. John of the Cross to Teilhard de Chardin (the latter two of whom may have been influenced by "The Cloud" itself).
The practical prayer advice contained in The Cloud of Unknowing forms a primary basis for the contemporary practice of centering prayer, a form of Christian meditation developed by Trappist monks William Meninger, Basil Pennington and Thomas Keating in the 1970s.

Joshua G



Its believed that a Benedictine Monk in England wrote the "Cloud of Unknowing." There is even speculation on the monks name which I've seen before, but can't remember the name.


Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

from wiki
The Cloud of Unknowing draws on the mystical tradition of Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite, which focuses on the via negativa road to discovering God as a pure entity, beyond any capacity of mental conception and so without any definitive image or form. This tradition has reputedly inspired generations of mystical searchers from John Scotus Erigena, through Book of Taliesin, Nicholas of Cusa and St. John of the Cross to Teilhard de Chardin (the latter two of whom may have been influenced by "The Cloud" itself).
The practical prayer advice contained in The Cloud of Unknowing forms a primary basis for the contemporary practice of centering prayer, a form of Christian meditation developed by Trappist monks William Meninger, Basil Pennington and Thomas Keating in the 1970s.

The Wiki info is a little off. Centering prayer is not a form of Christian meditation developed by Meninger, Pennington or Thomas Keating.

Centering prayer was called "Quiet Prayer," which comes from the Eastern Desert Fathers of the Catholic faith.

Back in the late 60's and early 70's as many young people were being drawn toward Eastern Religions, Pope Paul VI asked the spiritual masters of the Catholic Faith, to begin dialog with master of these Eastern Religions, in order to learn just what was attracting young people.

Fr. Keating ended up hosting a seminar at St. Joseph's Abbey, where experts in Eastern Spirituality were invited to share their knowledge.

What Fr Keating and the other Catholic monks observed from the dialog, was that the Catholic faith already had a deeper method of prayer, called contemplative prayer, which goes back to the hermits of the desert like Abba Isaac and of course St. John of the Cross. So they decided to come up with a way of teaching contemplative prayer, to those outside of monasteries. They called the prayer "quiet prayer," as ST. Terese and others have called it. However, they soon held a week-end retreat with Catholic religious, to work on this "quiet prayer." During the week-end, St. John of the Cross was talked about often, and it was from his writings which spoke so much about going to the "center" of our being to rest in God's presence, that the term, "Centering Prayer," came out and replaced the term, "quiet prayer."

Centering Prayer is the turning to God who dwells within, at our center. In the prayer, we go to our center to rest with Him, and just be with Him, allowing Him to transform us, according to His will.

Its nothing more than this and the misinformation in conservative Catholic Web forums, bring in all sorts of non-sense which was never part of "Centering Prayer."

For a piece from Fr Pennington's book on the origins of Centering Prayer, go here;
A gift from the desert

God Bless
Jim

 

[Joshua G.]

For a piece from Fr Pennington's book on the origins of Centering Prayer, go here;
A gift from the desert

I was going to suggest the same author, but based only on an educated guess. I read his book "The Monks of Mt Athos" which was excellent and I would encourage any Catholic or Orthodox to read it, especially during the lenten season as it is not very polemical (if at all), instills a sense of peace, is spiritually edifying and not all intense. He seemed to me someone who understood mysticism on a very personal and tangible level. So it is interesting to see this book here. Cool.

Josh

 

[QuantaCura]

I know I'm jumping in this late, but in regards to the OP, here's how a certain priest resolved this issue when his conversion choices bioled down to Orthodoxy or Catholicism. There's a lot personal story mixed in with the argument, but once you reach the end, I think you'll find it worthwhile (especially once he finishes evaluating the various propositions).

http://www.rtforum.org/lt/lt133.html#Harrison

 

[benedictaoo]

I may be overstepping bounds here and if I am, report me, delete it, no hard feelings.

I can sympathize with this point of view (I have a big however, later on...). It is true that some switch rites to run away from a problem rather than deal with. Their being Orthodox/Catholic DEPENDS on them having this rite available to them. And that is a problem. In the Orthodox Church we have a handful of Western Rite Parishes. I think that is wonderful and I pray it succeeds (but whatever God's will). There is, however, the danger, that people come to the Orthodox Church on the grounds that they can still go to a western rite parish. In other words, if they had to move, or the parish closed down, they would be tempted to pick up and leave the OC for a parish where they are comfortable. Now, not all (or even most) Western Rite Orthodox are like this. But i have met a few that have given me this vibe and I've prayed for them. Likewise, I wonder how some Eastern Rite Orthodox would deal if all there was in their area (after moving, for example) was a Western Rite Orthodox mission? I imagine many cradles, especially, would think "this isn't Orthodox" and wouldn't go (not most cradles, but surely some) or simply wouldn't feel at home or that it is to their liking. So, with the Western Rite growing as it is in the OC, this is a "problem" we will have to be vigilant of as well.

However (I told ya'!) that said, if one has a choice, why wouldn't they take the rite that helps them grow better? Why in the world would we not encourage them to do this? I understand a Catholic not encouraging a fellow Catholic to become Orthodox and vice-versa and I totally support that pov. But if it is part of the Church that we recognize as the Church, then that is wonderful.

Now, if they end up using the ERC as a stopping point on the way to the EOC, I understand the concern, but would they have been better off in a WC parish? Would that have safe-guarded them somehow? Probably it would have made them only more frustrated and who knows what path they would have taken? Nothing? Nominal Catholic? So, switching rites is not a problem. Were I Catholic, I can't imagine seeing it as "abandoning" a rite. That only propogates the idea that floats around out there that it truly is West vs East in the Catholic Church. But you are all one Church. Gwen has fidelity to the Catholic Church, not to a Rite. I have fidelity to the Orthodox Church, not to the Liturgy of John Chrysostom as much as I love it. And my wife has said that if we had the choice, she would prefer to go to a WR Orthodox parish. But we don't so we go to an ER parish and we grow where we are. But we hold no allegiance to either Rite as long as they are in the Church (as we view Her).

Josh

First of all, I love the Eastern Rites and the Orthodox perspective on many many things. I'm "east" at heart... with that said, why you ask? because what ever their issue is that switching Rites makes them "be better"... their issues will still be there, waiting for them unless the truly deal with it first before switching.

The Western way is not defective... when a person is having issues, the problem is with them, not the Latin Rite.

It's kinda like a dysfunctional family who argues and fights all the time... they think moving to a new house in a different neighbor will fix them- it doesn't, they take their problems with them becuase the problem wasn't where they were living, but with them.

 

[benedictaoo]

The Wiki info is a little off. Centering prayer is not a form of Christian meditation developed by Meninger, Pennington or Thomas Keating.

Centering prayer was called "Quiet Prayer," which comes from the Eastern Desert Fathers of the Catholic faith.

Back in the late 60's and early 70's as many young people were being drawn toward Eastern Religions, Pope Paul VI asked the spiritual masters of the Catholic Faith, to begin dialog with master of these Eastern Religions, in order to learn just what was attracting young people.

Fr. Keating ended up hosting a seminar at St. Joseph's Abbey, where experts in Eastern Spirituality were invited to share their knowledge.

What Fr Keating and the other Catholic monks observed from the dialog, was that the Catholic faith already had a deeper method of prayer, called contemplative prayer, which goes back to the hermits of the desert like Abba Isaac and of course St. John of the Cross. So they decided to come up with a way of teaching contemplative prayer, to those outside of monasteries. They called the prayer "quiet prayer," as ST. Terese and others have called it. However, they soon held a week-end retreat with Catholic religious, to work on this "quiet prayer." During the week-end, St. John of the Cross was talked about often, and it was from his writings which spoke so much about going to the "center" of our being to rest in God's presence, that the term, "Centering Prayer," came out and replaced the term, "quiet prayer."

Centering Prayer is the turning to God who dwells within, at our center. In the prayer, we go to our center to rest with Him, and just be with Him, allowing Him to transform us, according to His will.

Its nothing more than this and the misinformation in conservative Catholic Web forums, bring in all sorts of non-sense which was never part of "Centering Prayer."

For a piece from Fr Pennington's book on the origins of Centering Prayer, go here;
A gift from the desert

God Bless
Jim

Word to the wise...

You have to be really careful of that centering prayer... it's not to say it's not valid, however, with so many lose canons running around these days substituting new age in place of valid spirituality, you can end up with a mess is you aren't careful.

 

[MariaRegina]

Word to the wise...

You have to be really careful of that centering prayer... it's not to say it's not valid, however, with so many lose canons running around these days substituting new age in place of valid spirituality, you can end up with a mess is you aren't careful.

QFT

This is even true for saying the Jesus Prayer. It is always best to be under the direction of a good Spiritual Father. Prelest and delusion await those who try it alone.

 

[benedictaoo]

QFT

This is even true for saying the Jesus Prayer. It is always best to be under the direction of a good Spiritual Father. Prelest and delusion await those who try it alone.

absolutely.

 

[Anglian]

QFT

This is even true for saying the Jesus Prayer. It is always best to be under the direction of a good Spiritual Father. Prelest and delusion await those who try it alone.

repeated for truth - and not just for the Jesus Prayer, for for all aspects of the Faith. That's why Christ founded a Church

peace,

Anglian