The legitimacy of the sacrifice of Jesus.

[Faith.Man]

I don't want to barge in here, but this one point (mentioned also in the OP) is worth addressing. Jesus was not rejected by the Jews- He was rejected by many Jews and Gentiles alike, but His followers and the founders of the Christian religion were in fact Jews. Human beings reject Jesus (as He said they would), not races in full.

The rejection modern day rabbinic Jews have of Jesus is based mainly on theological arguments that came to fully develop long after the destruction of the Temple. During the time of Jesus, many different Jewish schools of thought existed with many different interpretations of the Tanach and many different Messianic expectations. Some of those pre-existing interpretations and expectations have since been more fully developed long after 70AD and have come to be the mainstream Jewish notion of what the Tanach means and what is expected of the Messiah. However, it is not difficult to prove that the Christian interpretations of the Tanach and the Messiah have precedent in Jewish tradition. In other words, the Christian interpretation is not as unlikely as some modern teachers might say- it has been believed before by Jews in good standing with their contemporaries.

The bottom line of course, is which set of interpretations and expectations one is willing to accept. This is a matter of faith. For Christians, this faith choice is made simple by the belief in the Resurrection. If Jesus was truly God, proven by His ministry, miracles and finally by His ressurection then this event trumps all theories and interpretations. All scripture is subjugated to this real event, and the final word on how these ancient prophecies, sacrifices and laws are to be understood has been settled by God Himself through the resurrection of Jesus. (The finished event defines the meaning of a prophecy, not a previous interpretation of it.)

In other words, it's a complete package. We have only two choices then, the set of beliefs and interpretations that is based on the resurrection, or the many and vastly numerous alternatives that reject the resurrection.

I hope I have made some sense.

My Jewish-Christian relatives would probably agree with your assessment.

 

[Sharlee]

Just to help out here...



I was born and raised in orthodox Judaism....so I understand what you are saying.

We've crossed the same ocean heading different directions.

Orthodox Jews have always believed that keeping the Sabbath Day is a commandment given to Jews only, as the Torah says. (Ex. 31:16,17)

(This is why even people converting to Judaism must break a Sabbath law every Shabbos until they are fully received.)

Thus, we read of the faithful Jews who followed Jesus re-affirming this to the whole church at the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15. This makes perfect theological sense: the Apostles followed the Torah to the letter by not binding Sabbath keeping on the Gentiles. This is the true Hebraic and scriptural understanding of that law.

Not every commandment in the Torah is binding on all mankind. The NT is faithful in this.

I hope Greekguy can answer the rest for you- I'm running late.

Yes, I am aware of the belief that the Sabbath is only a commandment for the Jews and gentiles are not required to follow all the laws. They are really only required to follow the Noahide laws. however, Christianity was originally a sect of Judaism, it was not its own religion yet. Therefore anyone that was converting to Christianity was actually converting to Judaism. That's where things get funky, because if you break it all down and get back to the basics, what would a Christian be responsible for now since it is no longer a sect of Judaism. I say only the Noahide laws. Acts 15 doesn't make perfect sense as you say. There was great debate about what to do about the situation that went on for hours. Finally, James put forth a suggestion and it was accepted. However, I do not believe that that decision was supposed to be the end of it for the convert. James goes on to mention that the new converts will be in the synagogues in each of the cities they are in and will be learning there. So, they would be adding to themselves more and more of what was obedience to the law. This is something that is minimized in Christianity, however, if James was going to be a follower of Christ's teaching, then he would had to have pushed for the entire law to be followed, not just the four that were agreed upon as Jesus warned against teaching anyone to not follow even the least of the laws.

Regarding the faithfulness of the NT in not binding everyone to all of the law, Paul's teachings were that law represented death and condemnation and only served to point out how unrighteous we are. He said that you either lived by the law, or by Christ, but you couldn't do both. So Paul essentially threw the law completely out. Heb states it as obsolete. So, I don't see the NT differentiating between Jew and gentile on this point or less or more. Correct me if I am wrong. I know that Paul said to follow the law in some places, but in most he made the law detestable. He was pretty conflicted in his teachings. Thanks for the post. Still looking for answers.

 

[Sharlee]

Anyway- I hope I have helped at least a little. I'm not sure I like the tone of this forum, so forgive me if I choose to withdraw.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for what you have contributed.

 

[EveryTongueConfess]

Jesus came because God knew more rules would not help

Jesus came not as an abomination to the law...the Pharisees were corrupt
they were thinking legal terms of God and not using their heart and compassion
When Judas speaks out at the table and asks why the perfume wasnt sold and given to the poor he sounds so Christian yet his heart is in the wrong place
and Jesus tells him why he was wrong

Jesus came for everyone, which is why the Temple veil was torn
dont have much time so sorry no scriptural references atm

basically Jesus can take the take the sin because He is God and He can save man because He is also man

 

[Sharlee]

Let's not indict Anglicanism of full surrender to liberal theology. While not fundamentalist, it has never avoided these "embarrasing questions" because there are no embarrasing questions to avoid. All questions have answers found in Christian orthodoxy that are reasonable and well received in history. Liberals simply create these questions to give themselves something to argue about and think about as the pews empty of parishners witnessing this spectacle of unbelief. Meanwhile, evangelical Anglicans experience church growth, because they give timeless answers to timeless questions, not more meaningless and faithless questions to cogitate while one's life slips into a nursing home and beyond. I look forward to the time when the baby boomers no longer run large portions of the church. The 60's are over. Praise God.[/QUOTE]

I would like to challenge your last paragraph. You say your faith or denomination gives timeless answers to timeless questions, yet you have not answered any of my questions. You keep making it about looking at it backwards from the NT to the OT, not the OT to the NT. The OT can be true and the NT not true, but the NT cannot be true and the OT not true. You can't look at it from the NT first and have the NT define the Old. It must make sense and it must line up to what God declared as righteous in the OT. That is what I am trying to find. A fluid transition between the two and I am not finding it. I find that what was not okay in the OT is not okay in the NT. I don't believe that is God's character. Christ's resurrection, if he indeed resurrected because there is no two testimonies alike on this story, does not make him God. It just means he may have come back to life. Many die and come back to life.

Like Wayseer said, Jesus promised many times that he was coming back soon. 2000 years, no matter how you look at it, is not soon. He said many times, it would be within that generation, before the disciples could make it all the way throughout the cities of Israel. This did not happen. Why do billions of people believe in a messiah that did not do what he said he would do? The Hebrew scriptures tell the Jews that they would be "many days" without a king or priest. So while they wait, they know it will be a long time. But Jesus said he was coming soon, quickly. If your beliefs have timeless answers, I would like to hear some. Thank you for your consideration in this matter.

 

[Sharlee]

I need scripture references for these accertations. Otherwise, it is just more Christian retoric. Frustrating.

Jesus came because God knew more rules would not help

Jesus came not as an abomination to the law...
If this is true, why do so many things about his life go against the Mosaic Law?

When Judas speaks out at the table and asks why the perfume wasnt sold and given to the poor he sounds so Christian yet his heart is in the wrong place
and Jesus tells him why he was wrong

Jesus came for everyone, which is why the Temple veil was torn
There is no proof the temple veil was torn, it is just what is written in the NT. There are no extra biblical accounts of this that I have been able to find and I have looked and asked.

dont have much time so sorry no scriptural references atm

basically Jesus can take the take the sin because He is God and He can save man because He is also man
That is what the church says, but what does God say? God says that no man can die for another man's sin. We are each accountable for our own sin. He says our sin is forgivable if we ask and make things right. He doesn't say anything about sending someone else to be a final sacrifice so that our sins would no longer be held against us. He says it is obedience to the Law that we will be justified. He says that a wicked man dies and a righteous man lives. That is what God has to say about it. So, how do you reconcile that with NT theology and still keep God as righteous and truthful?

Still looking for answers...

 

[wayseer]

Don't blame the reader- I just took it on face value.

What I said was ...

As a messiah Jesus failed.

... you will note the qualifier, as a messiah.

It is frequently frustrating for an author to have their words misquoted back at them and then blame the author for the failings of the reader.

I see it as triumph of history over myth.

The Bible is not a lesson in history - archaeology has provided evidence that the events in the Bible are anything but historic.

To my knowledge there's only three Anglican communions in Australia. None of which are decidedly and uniquely liberal. The ACA, the ACCA, and the ACC-OP all believe in the diety of Christ and the testimony of the NT as reliable in matters of faith and morals.

I have no idea of what the acronyms mean but the NT is reliable as far as matters of faith and ethics are concerned.

Let's not indict Anglicanism of full surrender to liberal theology.

Theology has always been liberal except for the last 200 odd years.

I look forward to the time when the baby boomers no longer run large portions of the church. The 60's are over. Praise God.

The 60s are over. We now live in the 21st century where the historization of the NT is being questioned without the fetters of entrenched ideologies - Praise God.

 

[wayseer]

Like Wayseer said, Jesus promised many times that he was coming back soon. 2000 years, no matter how you look at it, is not soon. He said many times, it would be within that generation, before the disciples could make it all the way throughout the cities of Israel. This did not happen. Why do billions of people believe in a messiah that did not do what he said he would do? The Hebrew scriptures tell the Jews that they would be "many days" without a king or priest. So while they wait, they know it will be a long time. But Jesus said he was coming soon, quickly. If your beliefs have timeless answers, I would like to hear some. Thank you for your consideration in this matter.

I agree with the thrust of your post.

However, I am not convinced that Jesus made any statement that he was the promised messiah or that he was God. Both of these are the redactional insertions by the various authors of the Gospels. I am not denying that the early Christians believed Jesus was both but such belief is short of any claim by Jesus himself.

The unfortunate aspect is that the old adage remains true - never lets the facts stand in the way of a good story. The Jesus story is a good story - a marvelous story - a life changing story. But it is still a story.

The problem is that many Christians see it necessary to prop up the story and deny any material which might contradict that story. Thus the charge is usually laid about those doing the questioning that they are somehow 'liberal' - as if liberal is a dirty word. I am really rather conservative and I don't like being told to accept certain things by the Church which are blatantly untrue or problematic at best. So the charge of 'liberalism' is little more than a silencing technique designed to marginalize those who raise legitimate questions.

If we are genuinely interested in the truth then we must not fear investigation and debate otherwise Christianity, of God for that matter, become nothing but politics.

Sharlee, to address you questions; You will have to do your own research. I can only say much on this forum but there are other places where you can voice your questions without fear of frightening those assembled. I have asked the questions you raise - the answers I had to find for myself.

 

[Greekguy]

Greekguy,

You were very kind in your response and I appreciate that. What I hear you essentially saying is that you believe that Yeshua is the Christ because you have experienced him as such. It seems to be more of a feeling of maybe what he has done for you that is your proof. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I actually come from evangelical Christianity. Charasmatic, PK that went to bible college. So, I have an understanding of what you are saying. Interestingly enough, my faith became dismantled as I studied the Sabbath. I found that you cannot accept the Sabbath as a commandment and ignore all the other commandments. This is not at all what Christianity teaches. It is not what Paul teaches. So, I decided to find out what God really had to say about all this and it was like a bulldozer was taken to my faith. For the last year, I have done nothing but study the word of God to see what he has to say.

As for the feeling of what Christ has done, trust me, I know...however, as I studied that specific issue, I found that the miraculous is in all religions. That is the thing they have in common. If it didn't work, they would be very short lived. Deut 13 tells us there will be those that come and perform the miraculous and then lead us against what God has said for us to obey. We are not to follow those people, we are to cleave to God. So, this cannot be a proof for me, this evidence of what he has done in your life because God says to not let it be.

Regarding your quoted verses, I will speak to the main one, Is 52-53. I think the test of prophecy is either it all comes true or one of two things is the case. Either none of it is true or it hasn't been fulfilled yet. I can acknowledge that Is 53, in places, can sound like the NT account of Jesus. However, to keep it simple, the entire thing in no way sounds like Jesus. There is no way the entire passage is about Jesus. I am open to going through it verse by verse if anyone is interested.

So, I am going to challenge you...no one has yet been able to address my questions. I fear that is because these questions cannot be addressed. I cannot just accept, "because I feel it in my spirit" as an answer because I don't feel it in mine and I assure you, my spirit is very alive and tapped into my Creator. Beyond that, my Creator tells me something different and even though that meant giving up everything I believed, I gave it up for the truth as written in God's word. Are you willing to trust your eternity on a feeling or experience? Deut 13 warns one against this. I just want the truth. If that means that Jesus is the messiah, then show me beyond just because you feel it in your spirit. Show me Jesus in the OT from unadulterated Hebrew scripture, not Christian translations that twist verses to back up their doctrine. Twice in Is 53 passage the one spoken of is referred to in plural form. This is changed in the Christian bibles. I have turned my bible inside out for truth, but since I don't claim to know it all, I am asking, is there a reasonable answer to these questions? God must be righteous, the Christian story is not such. It goes against so many things that God laid out as unrighteous. In Matt Jesus says, you must eat my flesh and drink my blood if you are to have eternal life. What is that? That speaks nothing but abomination to the Jewish people. God warned them very clearly of such behavior and in fact most of Jesus' followers left him at that time. Show me a righteous God in that? If this was His son, how is this righteous? I realize this was not intended as literal, however, when God told the Israelites, DO NOT DRINK BLOOD, do you think He added to that, oh, but you can to. Oh, and do not become involved in witchcraft and soothsaying etc, but you can pretend to...I don't think so. He said not to do it because it was an abomination. It was pagan worship and God said don't do it.

It is interesting, the path God has you on. I found that the Sabbath is like a carrot and it is the greens at the top represent the Sabbath, when you pull it out, you find a big huge orange thing connected to it and that is the law. You can run at that point. Either God's law gives life (as God says) or death (as Paul says). Jesus himself said that in the last days people will come to him and say, "Lord, look at all the things we have done for you! (Miracles) and Jesus will turn them away as workers of "law"lessness. The word there, as explained to me by someone far smarter than I, means "negator of the law." and let's just say it was not the Roman law he was talking about. So good luck!

Okay, I am going to stop there. If anyone has an answer to these questions, I would really really love to hear them.

Shaloha

Sharlee,

Yes as I stated in my previous response, The Lord showed me that I must honor the Sabbath that is part of the Law / Commandments and we are to still obey the Sabbath, as Christ declared " I am the Lord of the Sabbath"
Mark 2:27-28. Christ also observed the Sabbath along with his Disciples & Followers.

Yes I do agree that we as Christians do need to learn that there are Hebrew roots to our Chrisianity, and that Christ did not come to do away with the law, but to fulfill. At the very beginning, Jesus presented the law given on Sinai in light of the New Covenant.

Yeshua said, "Do not think I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill" (Mt 5:17). Anyone who breaks the least law and teaches others "will be called least in the kingdom of heaven" (Mt 5:17-19).
Thus I completely agree with you about Christ's statements in that day he will state to those who worked "Lawlessness" I never Knew you.. Many Christians including myself have been taught and American version of Christianity, one that does not observe God's Sabbath, and people think that it's just for the Jews but it is for ALL GOD'S CHOSEN PEOPLE.

Like I mentioned before the Lord revealed to me the importance of the Sabbath and rest and to refrain from work, as it is a sign of his covenant and a sign of his relationship with his people, as Christ simply stated he did not come to do away with it but to fulfill it..

As in feelings for Christ, I have not only felt his presence but have personally heard him.
The one and only time I have heard him speak to me it was a voice that I never heard before it was almost like lightening I just can't explian...
The Lord one night spoke to me these words " When I return will I find Faith?"

I have a recent testimony to the power of my Lord and Messiah in my life and can attest that he does live and is true to what he claimed as not only do I feel his presence but it is manifested in Power..

Testimony:
Recently the Lord did a miracle with my mother. My mom had a deteriorated knee,
for several years she had no cartridge between her knee joint it was
bone on bone, (this was an old injury as she fell at the College
Campus and ruptured it and it had got worse as she got older.) My mom
is recovering from cancer and on blood thinners, the surgeons told her
she was not a candidate for surgery and she would have to live with it
and live the pain..
Well a month ago I was having lunch with my mother and my Lord Yeshua
impressed on me to pray for my Mom's knee, I kinda hesitated but
prayed for her (My mom is Catholic and doesn't quite believe the way I
do so I was reluctant to pray for her, but I obeyed the Lord)
A week later my mother said her knee was feeling much better, and she
was going to the Dr. to get a cortisone shot in her knee for pain. the
Dr. had taken another Xray of her knee and stated that he didn't
understand, because He had the old image of her knee that showed bone
on bone with zero cartilage, the new image shows cartilage and looks
normal, my mom says that she said " Wow Im Healed!" The Dr. did not
know what to say. My mother has been actively since giving her
testimony, to EVERYONE!

Again this does not speak to everyone this is what has happened in my life.. Again Yeshua is very real to me... Remember Yeshua said in Luke 11:9 "So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you....

Sharlee, I truly believe that you are totally God's child - you know this to be true!!! - and I can sense this in my spirit also.. you are seeking and may the Lord bring you into ALL TRUTH! I don't even know you but I do feel the Lord is with you and will bring you into ALL TRUTH!!!

Bless You!

Artmeus

 

[Sharlee]

I agree with the thrust of your post.

However, I am not convinced that Jesus made any statement that he was the promised messiah or that he was God. Both of these are the redactional insertions by the various authors of the Gospels. I am not denying that the early Christians believed Jesus was both but such belief is short of any claim by Jesus himself.

The unfortunate aspect is that the old adage remains true - never lets the facts stand in the way of a good story. The Jesus story is a good story - a marvelous story - a life changing story. But it is still a story.

The problem is that many Christians see it necessary to prop up the story and deny any material which might contradict that story. Thus the charge is usually laid about those doing the questioning that they are somehow 'liberal' - as if liberal is a dirty word. I am really rather conservative and I don't like being told to accept certain things by the Church which are blatantly untrue or problematic at best. So the charge of 'liberalism' is little more than a silencing technique designed to marginalize those who raise legitimate questions.

If we are genuinely interested in the truth then we must not fear investigation and debate otherwise Christianity, of God for that matter, become nothing but politics.

Sharlee, to address you questions; You will have to do your own research. I can only say much on this forum but there are other places where you can voice your questions without fear of frightening those assembled. I have asked the questions you raise - the answers I had to find for myself.

You are an interesting fellow. I have looked and the answers I have found are in the OT. I am just curious how you reconcile all of this, as it seems you remain Christian...

 

[Sharlee]

Sharlee,

Yes as I stated in my previous response, The Lord showed me that I must honor the Sabbath that is part of the Law / Commandments and we are to still obey the Sabbath, as Christ declared " I am the Lord of the Sabbath"
Mark 2:27-28. Christ also observed the Sabbath along with his Disciples & Followers.

Yes I do agree that we as Christians do need to learn that there are Hebrew roots to our Chrisianity, and that Christ did not come to do away with the law, but to fulfill. At the very beginning, Jesus presented the law given on Sinai in light of the New Covenant.

Yeshua said, "Do not think I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill" (Mt 5:17). Anyone who breaks the least law and teaches others "will be called least in the kingdom of heaven" (Mt 5:17-19).
Thus I completely agree with you about Christ's statements in that day he will state to those who worked "Lawlessness" I never Knew you.. Many Christians including myself have been taught and American version of Christianity, one that does not observe God's Sabbath, and people think that it's just for the Jews but it is for ALL GOD'S CHOSEN PEOPLE.

Like I mentioned before the Lord revealed to me the importance of the Sabbath and rest and to refrain from work, as it is a sign of his covenant and a sign of his relationship with his people, as Christ simply stated he did not come to do away with it but to fulfill it..

As in feelings for Christ, I have not only felt his presence but have personally heard him.
The one and only time I have heard him speak to me it was a voice that I never heard before it was almost like lightening I just can't explian...
The Lord one night spoke to me these words " When I return will I find Faith?"

I have a recent testimony to the power of my Lord and Messiah in my life and can attest that he does live and is true to what he claimed as not only do I feel his presence but it is manifested in Power..

Testimony:
Recently the Lord did a miracle with my mother. My mom had a deteriorated knee,
for several years she had no cartridge between her knee joint it was
bone on bone, (this was an old injury as she fell at the College
Campus and ruptured it and it had got worse as she got older.) My mom
is recovering from cancer and on blood thinners, the surgeons told her
she was not a candidate for surgery and she would have to live with it
and live the pain..
Well a month ago I was having lunch with my mother and my Lord Yeshua
impressed on me to pray for my Mom's knee, I kinda hesitated but
prayed for her (My mom is Catholic and doesn't quite believe the way I
do so I was reluctant to pray for her, but I obeyed the Lord)
A week later my mother said her knee was feeling much better, and she
was going to the Dr. to get a cortisone shot in her knee for pain. the
Dr. had taken another Xray of her knee and stated that he didn't
understand, because He had the old image of her knee that showed bone
on bone with zero cartilage, the new image shows cartilage and looks
normal, my mom says that she said " Wow Im Healed!" The Dr. did not
know what to say. My mother has been actively since giving her
testimony, to EVERYONE!

Again this does not speak to everyone this is what has happened in my life.. Again Yeshua is very real to me... Remember Yeshua said in Luke 11:9 "So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you....

Sharlee, I truly believe that you are totally God's child - you know this to be true!!! - and I can sense this in my spirit also.. you are seeking and may the Lord bring you into ALL TRUTH! I don't even know you but I do feel the Lord is with you and will bring you into ALL TRUTH!!!

Bless You!

Artmeus

Thank you for your kind words of encouragement. It is an exciting story of healing regarding your mom. I have a similar one where I recently prayed for my nephew, who was here visiting, and a strong wave hit him in the side of the head and burst his eardrum. The doctor said you could drop a dime down it. Anyway, I prayed for him and when he went back to his own doctor a week later, the perforation was completely healed. I believe in the power of healing. I don't find it restricted to Christianity although sects of Christianity certainly move in it more than Judaism.

I do believe I am on the path of truth, that is comforting and yet it leads away from everything I have been taught and have known, so that is lonely. But God is with me and he has been over-the-top faithful! Bless you to

 

[Sharlee]

Forgive me, but I have pm I need to respond to and I guess you have to have at least 15 posts to be able to do that. I am quickly going to try and get my 15, so bare with me

 

[Sharlee]

14

 

[Sharlee]

15, Yay!

 

[Greekguy]

Thank you for your kind words of encouragement. It is an exciting story of healing regarding your mom. I have a similar one where I recently prayed for my nephew, who was here visiting, and a strong wave hit him in the side of the head and burst his eardrum. The doctor said you could drop a dime down it. Anyway, I prayed for him and when he went back to his own doctor a week later, the perforation was completely healed. I believe in the power of healing. I don't find it restricted to Christianity although sects of Christianity certainly move in it more than Judaism.

I do believe I am on the path of truth, that is comforting and yet it leads away from everything I have been taught and have known, so that is lonely. But God is with me and he has been over-the-top faithful! Bless you to

Yes Sharlee, I do believe that you are indeed on the Path to truth...

God Has told me forget many things I have been taught also...from what I've been taught in Church to what I was taught in public schools..

Believe me I was in the same boat over a year ago, when I asked God for the Truth in everything.. that's when God revealed to me the Sabbath, and his Law that are indeed still in effect..
I have even cut out pork and all pork products and have obeyed to the best of my ability the laws and commandments.. and I'm still learning..

God also showed me that we here in America have been lied to for many years as we have been taught that the American forefathers were Christian.. This is a lie...If you research you will find that ALL the American forefathers practiced Freemasonry (Which is a form of Satanism) and still do to this day... Read George W. Bush's Bio...and he tells of the Skull & Crossbones Society.
If people would just humble themselves and seek the Lord for the Truth - not as man gives but as the Lord gives he will lead you into all truth..

We live in a society that exudes greed, just look at many American TV preachers who live the life of luxury - then ask for people to tithe into their ministry.
The Holy Tithe was Never meant for American TV Preachers/Pastors it was ONLY MEANT FOR THE LEVITICAL PRIESTHOOD - The Only ones that were qualified by God to receive the Holy Tithe not a TV preacher or pastor.

This American practice has been grossly taken out of context and to the extreme and is lawlessness as the tithe was only meant for the poor Levite farmers & peasants of that day who did not have the commonwealth (i.e., money, food, etc.) of that of the city of Jerusalem and surrounding cities thus God instructed His people to share with the Levites and collect a tenth of all their first fruits - Ten percent.
Some will argue Malachi 3:8 will a man rob God...
This our Lord was plainly speaking to the Commonwealth in Jerusalem of those days not the local church or TV Preacher.. they are Not of the Levitical Priesthood and THUS are unlawfully receiving what is the Lord's.

A very important thing that we need to understand is that the Tithe was livestock and produce i.e, fruits and vegetables ONLY!!! NEVER was it MONEY!!!!!.

BTW didn't mean to go off on a tangent but I merely wanted to point out that I was in the same boat, searching for the truth, and God is faithful and has and is still revealing to me truth...as I stay humble and seeking his face.

Peace Sister...
Artmeus

 

[Harry3142]

Sharlee-

The Torah is quite clear as to what rewards were to be expected from God in return for the Hebrews' keeping The Mosaic Law:

If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then the Lord your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your forefathers. He will love you and bless you and increase your numbers. He will bless the fruit of your womb, the crops of your land - your grain, new wine and oil - the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks in the land that he swore to your forefathers to give you. You will be blessed more than any other people; none of your men or women will be childless, nor any of your livestock without young. The Lord will keep you free from every disease. He will not inflict on you the horrible diseases you knew in Egypt, but he will inflict them on all who hate you. (Deuteronomy 7:12-15,NIV)

The contract between God and the Hebrews was a very pragmatic, here-and-now agreement. They obeyed the Laws in this life; they were rewarded in this life. There is no mention of their being able to earn their way into eternal life with God through keeping The Mosaic Law. In fact, there was no mention of there being an afterlife at all. King Solomon noted this in his book:

I also thought, "As for men, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless. All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth? (Ecclesiastes 3:18-21,NIV)

There gradually arose in Jewish society a belief that there was indeed an afterlife, but by the time of The New Testament it was still vague as to what it was, and how one could attain it. But the mainstream belief for those who accepted that an afterlife did indeed exist was that a strict adherence to The Mosaic Law was the way in which they could earn eternal life for themselves. Jesus Christ himself 'shot that down' with his teaching:

"Suppose one of you had a servant plowing or looking after the sheep. Would he say to the servant when he comes in from the field, 'Come along now and sit down to eat'? Would he not rather say, 'Prepare my supper, get yourself ready and wait on me while I eat and drink; after that you may eat and drink'? Would he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do? So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.' " (The Gospel of Luke 17:7-10,NIV)

Whatever we do, and to whatever extent that we do it, in the furtherance of God's kingdom, is to be seen by us as nothing more than what we should have done. The only reward that we Christians are to recognize as our having earned is the knowledge that we successfully completed the tasks set before us.

Jesus also told us who we were to recognize him as being, and what was really about to happen to him at Jerusalem:

"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me - just as the Father knows me and I know the Father - and I lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life - only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father." (The Gospel of John 10:14-18,NIV)

Jesus' death was his last miracle prior to his resurrection insofar as we conservative Christians are comcerned. He had completed what God sent him here to do, and now he was returning to the Father. The centurion realized that something very unusual had happened when he witnessed Christ's death. He had seen enough crucifixions so that he knew the proper procedure of dying for the victims, and none of it fit Jesus. Even Pilate was surprised to hear that Jesus was already dead (The Gospel of Mark 15:42-45). It had to be confirmed by the centurion that he had died before Pilate would release his body.

The reason why this had to be done lies with the very nature of God as we Christians visualize him. We call him The Author of Justice, for whom there is no such thing as being 'good enough'. Either those who are to appear before him are perfect from birth to death, or they are lost; there is no middle ground.

However, as well as being The Author of Justice God is also The Epitome of Mercy. If we could not satisfy his demand for perfection, he himself would satisfy it. This is what St. Paul was quick to teach us Gentiles as he did his missionary work among us:

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished - he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:19-26,NIV)

The Mosaic Law was intended to keep a people civilized. It was never God's intention for it to be used as a 'yardstick' to measure perfection. That no one can ever achieve, and God knows it. So he had a choice to make; either allow us to die as lost souls or take the necessary action himself that ensures our salvation. We Christians believe that he chose the latter, and together with his Son Jesus Christ carried it out to completion on our behalf.

So what are we Christians to do in return for this gift? We are to behave in such a way as to bring credit to God. Our 'Christians' Code of Conduct' can be found at Galatians 5:16-26; it is our way of showing proper respect and gratitude to a God who we firmly believe has saved our lives.

I hope this helps you understand our theology a little better. You're an excellent tester for us. Keep us Christians on our toes.

 

[wayseer]

You are an interesting fellow. I have looked and the answers I have found are in the OT. I am just curious how you reconcile all of this, as it seems you remain Christian...

Actually when I cut away the problematics and the politics of religion I experienced meeting Jesus again as if for the first time. This Jesus is real and no longer soaked in the 'theology of sensibilities'. If Christianity is about entering into a relationship with the Divine then that relationship has to be built of truth and trust - not the politics of the establishment. Rather than Jesus being some article of faith he is now an experiential reality.

 

[ContraMundum]

Yes, I am aware of the belief that the Sabbath is only a commandment for the Jews and gentiles are not required to follow all the laws. They are really only required to follow the Noahide laws. however, Christianity was originally a sect of Judaism, it was not its own religion yet. Therefore anyone that was converting to Christianity was actually converting to Judaism.

Actually, that's precisely where we diverge- Christianity is not converting to any form of Judaism at all. That's what the whole circumcision dispute is about- do Gentiles need to convert to Judaism (eg. be circumcised) to be Christians? The Christian Church (led by faithful Jews) said "no". So, I hate to say it, but Christianity has never been considered a conversion to Judaism.

That's where things get funky, because if you break it all down and get back to the basics, what would a Christian be responsible for now since it is no longer a sect of Judaism. I say only the Noahide laws.

The Noahide laws have no place in Christianity. They weren't even fully developed in the 1stC AD.

Acts 15 doesn't make perfect sense as you say. There was great debate about what to do about the situation that went on for hours. Finally, James put forth a suggestion and it was accepted. However, I do not believe that that decision was supposed to be the end of it for the convert. James goes on to mention that the new converts will be in the synagogues in each of the cities they are in and will be learning there. So, they would be adding to themselves more and more of what was obedience to the law. This is something that is minimized in Christianity, however, if James was going to be a follower of Christ's teaching, then he would had to have pushed for the entire law to be followed, not just the four that were agreed upon as Jesus warned against teaching anyone to not follow even the least of the laws.

I think much of what you conclude is rather speculative. I do not consider the Acts 15 ruling to be of any temporary measure. I would consider that rank heresy and an offence to God. Something is either a sin, or it isn't. If following the whole Torah was what was required of the Gentile Christians then that would have been what was ruled. You can't tell anyone to go and sin until later on. The Jewish founders of the Church were doing exactly what Judaism states: Gentiles don't need to be Jews to be righteous. God confirmed this when He gave Gentiles the full measure of the Holy Spirit. Nothing more is needful from Him.

Regarding the faithfulness of the NT in not binding everyone to all of the law, Paul's teachings were that law represented death and condemnation and only served to point out how unrighteous we are. He said that you either lived by the law, or by Christ, but you couldn't do both. So Paul essentially threw the law completely out. Heb states it as obsolete. So, I don't see the NT differentiating between Jew and gentile on this point or less or more. Correct me if I am wrong. I know that Paul said to follow the law in some places, but in most he made the law detestable. He was pretty conflicted in his teachings. Thanks for the post. Still looking for answers.

Actually, I can't answer you here- you are speaking far too broadly and this kind of discussion requires more qualified speech.

On one point though, Paul circumcised Timothy because he had a Jewish mother. He did it for a good witness. However, he clearly speaks quite firmly against Gentiles being circumcised. This is a clear example of how Paul sees the law. The Law of Christ is actually quite extensive and difficult to follow, and all Christians are bound to it. However, the Law of Moses in regards killing animals and people etc is obsolete. Likewise the OT priesthood (by extension). Having said that, Paul shows us that keeping Jewish identity is a good thing, but living according to the Law of Christ is what matters, and the Law of Christ is basically a fine tuning of the moral law contained within the Torah. A lot of people get hung up on the legal aspects of the OT, but they fail to remember that God has always required a pure heart, and He said that this is the purpose of His religion. Killing animals, stoning people to death etc have all served their purpose and are no longer necessary. Even the Rabbinic Jews agree that they are no longer necessary to be righteous.

 

[ContraMundum]

I would like to challenge your last paragraph. You say your faith or denomination gives timeless answers to timeless questions, yet you have not answered any of my questions.

I have answered- you simply don't agree or accept the answers. That's ok. We all have a God-given mind to use.

OTOH, I don't think my answers have been carefully considered either. It's probably my fault for not being clear enough.

You keep making it about looking at it backwards from the NT to the OT, not the OT to the NT.

I see no problem with that. Revelation gets clearer over time, not muddier.

You can't look at it from the NT first and have the NT define the Old.

Yes, you can.

That was my point from the start- Jesus defines the whole Bible. That's the Messiah's job.

It must make sense and it must line up to what God declared as righteous in the OT. That is what I am trying to find. A fluid transition between the two and I am not finding it.

The funny thing is, that I don't see a problem between the two like you do. It all makes sense to me.

I find that what was not okay in the OT is not okay in the NT. I don't believe that is God's character.

Well, I hope you find some peace eventually. There are many things God rules out over time. Let's take the wholesale slaughter of thousands of men women and children to give the Jewish people a land to live in. This is no longer considered applicable for Jews (without getting into politics, please). That's one example. The whole Tanach is a story of the development of theology. What was acceptable for Avraham's complete righteousness is not acceptable for Moses. What is acceptable for Moses is not applicable during the exiles, including now.

The issue here is not God's character. His plan from eternity has already in the Tanach shown many changes in the Covenants He makes with mankind. Changing theology is an OT precedent and is the norm for it. He showed us in the Tanach that He had future plans for us, through prophecy. There is no longer in Israel true prophecy (according to the Talmud, anyway), only bat kol. (I believe that is because of Christianity etc.)

The point being, is that you don't agree that the Messianic prophecies have come true. You seem to base that on the notion that what you expect of a Messiah is not what you see in Jesus. We say Jesus challenges those expectations and declares them null. We say He gives us the true meaning of Messiah.

Christ's resurrection, if he indeed resurrected because there is no two testimonies alike on this story, does not make him God. It just means he may have come back to life. Many die and come back to life.

Who is Jesus then? He claimed to be God. He either lied, and was a fool for dying for a lie, or He was insane, or He was who He said He was. We say that the resurrection verifies His claim to be God, it does not merely revive Him from the dead. That changes all the rules of men and their interpretations of the Bible. When God comes to the earth and says "this is what the Torah means when it says..." or "this is what the written word means when it says..." then we had better believe it!

So, what think ye of Jesus?

That's really the only question you need to be asking yourself I think. After that, it all makes sense.

Like Wayseer said, Jesus promised many times that he was coming back soon. 2000 years, no matter how you look at it, is not soon. He said many times, it would be within that generation, before the disciples could make it all the way throughout the cities of Israel. This did not happen. Why do billions of people believe in a messiah that did not do what he said he would do? The Hebrew scriptures tell the Jews that they would be "many days" without a king or priest. So while they wait, they know it will be a long time. But Jesus said he was coming soon, quickly.

Interpretations, intepretations. They mean nothing at this point of anything. I could argue that all of the above is misintepreted, but that would make no difference to anything. I say always get back to basics when discussing Jesus with those who are of other faiths.

If your beliefs have timeless answers, I would like to hear some. Thank you for your consideration in this matter.

When we narrow things down a bit, it would be easier. Plus, in order to get somewhere, I suggest things get taken a lot slower and points focussed on.

 

[Sharlee]

When we narrow things down a bit, it would be easier. Plus, in order to get somewhere, I suggest things get taken a lot slower and points focussed on.[/QUOTE]

At the beginning of this post, I asked some very specific and pointed questions. You have not answered one of them specifically or pointedly. You have given vague and philosophical comments.

The bottom line is not whether you believe in Jesus or not. Believing in him doesn't make what he represents true. I want to believe what is true. There is simply no way God can establish a system and people follow it for a couple thousand years and then throw Jesus into the mix redefining everything. Jesus does not define the bible, he redefined the bible. There has to be a righteous way for that to come about for it to be truth. It seems as though you are just willing to accept it without logical flow, and that is fine, but it is not something I am willing to do.