Posted by The Lady Kate:
“Certainly not loyal to the borders we tried to put them in…”
We? You don’t define the “we” or the “them” you are specifically talking about, but I will proceed from the baseline of America as we, Muslims as them, and Israel as the thorn in everyone’s side.
Iran:
“Archeological findings indicate human activity in Iran during the middle Paleolithic era, about 100,000 years ago. The sixth millennium B.C. saw a fairly sophisticated agricultural society and proto-urban population centers. Many dynasties have ruled Iran starting with the Achaemenid (559-330 B.C.) founded by Cyrus the Great. After the conquest of Persia by Alexander the Great and the Hellenistic period (300-250 B.C.) came the Parthian (250 B.C.-226 A.D.) and the Sassanian (226-651) dynasties.”
Source:
http://geography.about.com/gi/dynami...i/bgn/5314.htm
Seems Iran has been around for some time. However…
“During World War Two, Iran had been a vital link in the Allied supply line for lend-lease supplies to the Soviet Union. After the war, Soviet troops stationed in northwestern Iran not only refused to withdraw but backed revolts that established short-lived, pro-Soviet separatist regimes in the northern regions of Azerbaijan and Kurdistan. These ended in 1946. The Azerbaijani revolt crumbled after U.S. and United Nations (UN) pressure forced a Soviet withdrawal. Iranian forces also suppressed the Kurdish uprising.”
Is that how we put them in their borders, by helping to force the Soviets out?
However…
“In 1961, Iran administered a series of economic, social, and administrative reforms--pushed by the Kennedy administration--that became known as the Shah's White Revolution. The core of this program was land reform. Modernization and economic growth proceeded at an unprecedented rate, fueled by Iran's vast petroleum reserves, the third-largest in the world. However, his autocratic method of rule and pro-western policies alienated large sectors of the population, including the Shia clergy.”
Maybe the Kennedy administration should have stayed out of internal Iranian policies, thus saving future administrations from having to deal with follow on events. But I don’t see where we put them into borders they are not loyal to. Source for the above paragraphs quoted are the same.
Afghanistan:
“The Durand Line is the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan, which stretches approximately 2,640 kilometers (1,610 miles). It was established after the 1893 Durand Line Treaty to serve as the limit of British influence.”
“The area in which the border runs is inhabited by ethnic Pashtun tribes since at least the time of Alexander the Great in 330 BC.”
Source:
Durand Line - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
330BC - 1776. Yep, we did it. No, wait…
Clash erupts between Afghan, Pakistani forces over border fence
Quote:
“Kabul/Islamabad - Cross-border shooting erupted after Afghan army troops tore down part of a fence tore down part of a fence newly erected by the Pakistani side on disputed territory that is often used by Taliban militants, officials said on Friday.”
“The Durand Line was drawn by British India in 1893 to keep Afghanistan as a buffer state.”
Source:
http://www.monstersandcritics.com/ne...r_border_fence
I guess you could blame British Imperialism or Colonialism as the root cause, and by extension Western Civilization, and by extension……
But you are correct about one thing, the border does seem to be in dispute.
Go West, Young Durand Line, Go West
Quote:
“The Durand Line, for those of you not in the know, is the Pakistan-Afghanistan border. Funnily enough, it seems to be moving westward.”
“One of the things that Pakistan wants is for Afghanistan to recognize the Durand Line. Afghanistan has, throughout history, refused to do so. This habit has continued into the Karzai administration. So you can see why Pakistan, which is under some debatable threat of state failure and disintegration, is so sensitive about the issue. And more than a few non-Pashtuns in Afghanistan are not to psyched about the prospect of being in a state with 11 million additional Pashtuns.”
Source:
http://easterncampaign.wordpress.com...-line-go-west/
So this particular border is in dispute, but I don’t see how “we” are trying to put “them” into a border which “they” don’t want. The issue was a problem before America became a world power, and the nations involved don’t seem to need any of our help to continue making an issue out of it.
“After all, who draw up the maps of the Middle Eastern nations? Certainly not themselves.”
This is a valid point. According to various accounts the borders were established in conjunction with or compliance to the self-interest of European governments. The following excerpts are from a good article which addresses what may be your point, in that allowing those in the Middle East to adjust their borders may lead to some stability in the region overall.
Blood Borders
Quote:
“The most arbitrary and distorted borders in the world are in Africa and the Middle East. Drawn by self-interested Europeans (who have had sufficient trouble defining their own frontiers), Africa’s borders continue to provoke the deaths of millions of local inhabitants. But the unjust borders in the Middle East — to borrow from Churchill — generate more trouble than can be consumed locally.”
“While the Middle East has far more problems than dysfunctional borders alone — from cultural stagnation through scandalous inequality to deadly religious extremism — the greatest taboo in striving to understand the region’s comprehensive failure isn’t Islam but the awful-but-sacrosanct international boundaries worshipped by our own diplomats.”
End Quote.
Perhaps it would be more accurate to state that diplomats, ours apparently included, may want to keep the borders as they are, but the United States did not establish them.
From the same article, I found this passage interesting.
Quote:
“Iran, a state with madcap boundaries, would lose a great deal of territory to Unified Azerbaijan, Free Kurdistan, the Arab Shia State and Free Baluchistan, but would gain the provinces around Herat in today’s Afghanistan — a region with a historical and linguistic affinity for Persia. Iran would, in effect, become an ethnic Persian state again, with the most difficult question being whether or not it should keep the port of Bandar Abbas or surrender it to the Arab Shia State.”
End Quote. Link:
Blood borders - June 2006 - Armed Forces Journal - Military Strategy, Global Defense Strategy
I wonder how the leadership of Iran would react to the notion of giving up any land to anyone for the sake of stability.
“Frankenstein's Monster wasn't going to be appeased by the good Doctor, either.”
Until the good doctor was dead.
“of course they would... just as they were doing before the west got involved.”
Is your point here that the involvement of the west has, in actuality, done nothing to change the nature of the Islamic fundamentalist? If so, you are making my point.
“What makes this enemy different is that, at every level from the ground up, we created them.”
Islam was founded in 622 AD by Mohammed the Prophet.
Or you could be referring to this part of Amercan history.
Zbigniew Brzezinski:
How Jimmy Carter and I Started the Mujahideen
Quote:
Q: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs ["From the Shadows"], that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that correct?
Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise: Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.
Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today?
Brzezinski: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter: We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.
End Quote. Link:
No Regrets: Carter, Brzezinski and the Muj
So maybe we did create them, or at least a faction which holds a grudge. But apparently you will have to blame Carter for that as well.
“We divided up their lands for our own convenience”
No.
“we staked our own claims on their resources”
Ah, yes. The Blood for Oil mantra. If this is true, where is all that oil flowing from Iraq into our country?
“we planted ourselves smack in their holiest lands with armed troops”
Ah, yes, the American Imperialist mantra. We are to respect their “holiest lands” when they think nothing of attacking America and Americans whenever and wherever they may be found? Terrorism against the United States did not start with September 11th, 2001.
“and we handed a portion of their lands over to their enemies because the enemies' holy book says they deserve it.”
You may need to expand on this a bit. Which enemies holy book says who deserves what?
“When the truth is, this is and has always been our own mess.”
If you want a chronology of Muslin history, follow this link:
Islamic History (Chronology)
The time-line begins in 545. We show up in during World War Two, but not in any capacity to oppress the Islamic masses. Our hand appears again in 1948, in conjunction with the establishment of the state of Israel. Iran and Iraq fought each other from 1980 until 1989. In 1991 Iraq invaded Kuwait, and we went to liberate Kuwait from that aggression, leaving Hussein in power after that effort. We have backed Israel since it was established, but I do not see this as justification for hating America and wanting us destroyed as some apparently do.
On another note, I have never said “they” hate us for our freedom. I have said they hate us because we exist. I’ve seen it myself.
“I know the truth all too well... I saw the truth the morning of 9/11/01”
According to you, in your own words, the truth you saw was a “mosquito bite.” Is that not an accurate quote? But I suppose you are following the line that the events of that day were the fault of America, we brought it on ourselves. What about the bombing of the USS Cole? I ask because I want to be clear on exactly whose policies you are blaming for the horrible thing we did to ourselves on September 11th, 2001.
