Worldview...Everyone Has One

[quatona]

Fair enough, so.....what do we do with this group of folks who will never accept Evolution as fact.

The same that we do with people who will never accept that the earth is spheric.

 

[Danhalen]

So far, and please correct me if I am wrong, the common thought is:

-Do what makes you happy as long as your pursuit of happiness does not interfere with another person's own pursuit for happiness.

-Help others in his/her own pursuit.....(finish sentence please)

My cosmology does not account for the existence of the self or other. As I've progressed along my own spiritual path I've come to understand that the Four Noble Truths are something I can agree with (more or less--I would probably tweak 1 and 4 a bit).

1. Life means suffering.

2. The origin of suffering is attachment.

3. The cessation of suffering is attainable.

4. The path to the cessation of suffering is the Eightfold Path.

 

[CoderHead]

To be happy, one must lend a hand for both individuals and society as a whole as long as one's own personal worldview does not interfere another's worldview. Is that close?

What if the person or society is doing everything possible to interfere into your own personal life? Do you still help just for the sake of mankind as a whole?

Pretty close, I guess. "Interfere" is hard for me to quantify. Since I already know that not all of our worldviews are compatible, it would be impossible to say that you could live without interfering. I suppose my view is that you should try. Sometimes we succeed, sometimes we fail. But ultimately it's up to us to put forth that effort.

So far, and please correct me if I am wrong, the common thought is:

-Do what makes you happy as long as your pursuit of happiness does not interfere with another person's own pursuit for happiness.

-Help others in his/her own pursuit.....(finish sentence please)

I'm not sure there's a "common" thought. You've basically restated my view, but I can't hold that anybody or everybody else agrees. As previously stated, the only thing atheists have in common is lack of belief in deities.

 

[jpcedotal]

The same that we do with people who will never accept that the earth is spheric.

But in order to do that, there would have to be irrefutable proof that evolution is the way things happened. There is a long list of secular scientists that compare Evolution to religion than to an actual science.

I can link some quotes and lists but all you have to do is Google it. I agree that the world is round because it has been proven. I believe the earth revolves around the sun because it has been proven. Evolution has not, therefore it is a belief and should be labeled a religion and not taught in schools. There are too many covering of the facts and altering the "scientific evidence by filing down jawbones and such (again, this can be Googled) for any proof to have any true scientific worth.

 

[jpcedotal]

Pretty close, I guess. "Interfere" is hard for me to quantify. Since I already know that not all of our worldviews are compatible, it would be impossible to say that you could live without interfering. I suppose my view is that you should try. Sometimes we succeed, sometimes we fail. But ultimately it's up to us to put forth that effort.

I'm not sure there's a "common" thought. You've basically restated my view, but I can't hold that anybody or everybody else agrees. As previously stated, the only thing atheists have in common is lack of belief in deities.

Thanks...this helped a lot.

 

[jpcedotal]

My cosmology does not account for the existence of the self or other. As I've progressed along my own spiritual path I've come to understand that the Four Noble Truths are something I can agree with (more or less--I would probably tweak 1 and 4 a bit).

1. Life means suffering.

2. The origin of suffering is attachment.

3. The cessation of suffering is attainable.

4. The path to the cessation of suffering is the Eightfold Path.

Wow, never heard that before. I will have to do some study before I can even respond intelligently to this post.

 

[Tenka]

Where did we come from?

Our parents..? How far back do you need to go?

What went wrong?

What went wrong with what?

How do we fix it?

Fix what?

Answer them on here if you want, but also think about what or who helped form your worldview.

Family, friends, things I've experienced, things I read. My environment basically.

If I'd been born in Somalia or Afghanistan I daresay my worldview would be quite different.

 

[jpcedotal]

As I said: evolution theory is the currently best explanation available.


Limited resources.
Fear.
Lack of education.


1. Abstain from fighting.
2. Getting access to our negative emotions in order not to be victim to them.
3. Education.

Thank you.

 

[jpcedotal]

Our parents..? How far back do you need to go?

What went wrong with what?

Fix what?


Family, friends, things I've experienced, things I read. My environment basically.

If I'd been born in Somalia or Afghanistan I daresay my worldview would be quite different.

How high up does geography rank on effecting (affecting? never could get that rule right in grammar) one's worldview?

Is this becoming less and less a factor with the way communication is linking the world together as one and language barriers are being knocked down so everyone can now communicated with just about anyone anywhere?

 

[CoderHead]

How high up does geography rank on effecting (affecting? never could get that rule right in grammar) one's worldview?

You were right the second time...affecting.

It's clear from even casual observation that culture and geography has a large impact on people's worldview. The conditions in which you live, the dominant religion or philosophy, and the economy will all affect it. I don't know if I have any statistics to show you but I think you can see for yourself: if you would have been born in Afghanistan you'd more than likely be a Muslim right now (99% of their population reports Islam as their religion).

 

[Danhalen]

How high up does geography rank on effecting (affecting? never could get that rule right in grammar) one's worldview?

Is this becoming less and less a factor with the way communication is linking the world together as one and language barriers are being knocked down so everyone can now communicated with just about anyone anywhere?

I think you have the rule of grammar properly applied in this case.

This is a pretty interesting question (IMHO). I think geography will always play a very large part in shaping one's worldview, but the increasing inter-connectedness of worldwide communication must have a pretty substantial effect on individuals. It used to be that we only heard one side of the story and the other side was interpreted by the ones disseminating it (American news putting an American spin on the story). Now I can get the other side of the story from the source if I want. This does change how I perceive things because I can now better understand where population X is coming from. It seems to be slowly moving into a more pluralistic world and I welcome this shift (as my worldview has been effected in such a way as to promote pluralism).

I am enjoying the fact that you are very able to accept my point of view without blindly criticising it. You are to be commended for that.

 

[exotic walrus]

But in order to do that, there would have to be irrefutable proof that evolution is the way things happened. There is a long list of secular scientists that compare Evolution to religion than to an actual science.

Is this really where you wanted to end up? Obviously one index that you are wrong is the entire academic culture of Western society. As far as most people are concerned including those who contribute to the various journals of hard sciences there is irrefutable proof.

I can link some quotes and lists but all you have to do is Google it. I agree that the world is round because it has been proven. I believe the earth revolves around the sun because it has been proven. Evolution has not, therefore it is a belief and should be labeled a religion and not taught in schools. There are too many covering of the facts and altering the "scientific evidence by filing down jawbones and such (again, this can be Googled) for any proof to have any true scientific worth.

"Covering of the facts" - you are saying that 21st global intellectual culture is distorting the concept of evolution? Every individual? All the institutions?

 

[Tenka]

How high up does geography rank on effecting (affecting? never could get that rule right in grammar) one's worldview?

Extremely highly, the culture you grow up in is what affects you more than any other.

Is this becoming less and less a factor with the way communication is linking the world together as one and language barriers are being knocked down so everyone can now communicated with just about anyone anywhere?

All societies evolve over time, technology is the most important factor in pushing that change.

But in order to do that, there would have to be irrefutable proof that evolution is the way things happened. There is a long list of secular scientists that compare Evolution to religion than to an actual science.

This really isn't the place to argue against evolutionary theory. It is perhaps the most solidly supported theory we have, much more so than our explanation of gravity for example. The vast majority (99+&#37 of scientists who include Muslims, Catholics, Protestants, atheists, communists, black, white, Hispanic, contemporary Jazz fans, Ford vehicle owners etc...agree that TOE is the best explanation of the facts.
The dissent comes primarily from American authors with Bible college degrees.

 

[jpcedotal]

Is this really where you wanted to end up? Obviously one index that you are wrong is the entire academic culture of Western society. As far as most people are concerned including those who contribute to the various journals of hard sciences there is irrefutable proof.



"Covering of the facts" - you are saying that 21st global intellectual culture is distorting the concept of evolution? Every individual? All the institutions?

U are right his is not where I wanted to go. I was just disagreeing with with your statement as if the evolution debate is over and only the uneducated were holding on to old beliefs.

No, I do not want to get into another evolution thread....I am dropping it (the evolution debate) now.

We can agree to disagree on that point and still carry on this discussion.

 

[quatona]

But in order to do that, there would have to be irrefutable proof that evolution is the way things happened.

No, there wouldn´t have to be "in order to do that".
I´m not taking any actions against flat earthers, and I´m not going to take any actions against people who think the universe as it is today has been readily put in place at some point in time. It´s just not worth the effort, imo.

There is a long list of secular scientists that compare Evolution to religion than to an actual science.

Is there such a long list? Present it.

I can link some quotes and lists but all you have to do is Google it.

You make the claim, you support it.

I agree that the world is round because it has been proven. I believe the earth revolves around the sun because it has been proven.
Evolution has not, therefore it is a belief and should be labeled a religion and not taught in schools. There are too many covering of the facts and altering the "scientific evidence by filing down jawbones and such (again, this can be Googled) for any proof to have any true scientific worth.

Thanks for revealing essential elements of your worldview.
In order to even start discussing your claims I would need your definitions of "belief", "religion", "proof", "fact", "scientific worth", which - from how you use these words - seem
1. to be pretty unusual to say the least and
2. not matching the scientific terminology.
But you opened the discussion by saying that you wouldn´t discuss evolution theory, but now you are doing it anyways.

I certainly have no interest in discussing it with you (I´m not even a scientist, after all - and from what you say here you don´t have a clue at all about it), and I wouldn´t know how this would help your goal of understanding my views. Whether and to which extent evolution theory in its current state is accurate or not is actually no skin of my nose. Science and applied science uses it with good results. It´s a working scientific theory, and that´s how far science gets. Yet, if it were disproven tomorrow this wouldn´t affect me and my core beliefs not at all.
(That´s exactly what I meant in my first post: Your idea that your questions were relevant for my worldview and core beliefs is an erroneous assumption based on what is relevant to you as a theist.)

However, if - for one moment and for argument´s sake - I follow your claim that evolution theory is a "belief" and a "religion", I have to wonder what you of all - as am religious guy who believes in a god and such - see a problem with that.

 

[The Nihilist]

Atheist have no sense of morality? Why not just take what you want then, kill those who stand in your way? What stops you....simple consequences for your actions (like jail time?)

I cannot speak for all atheists, but only for myself. I side with Hume and say that morality is little more than sentiment. Am I good? Maybe I'm just morally sentimental.
But because I recognize that these feelings are not objectively legitimate, I can't seriously expect the world to line up nicely with them.

 

[The Nihilist]

Ok, I just saw the bit about evolution. It's clear this isn't a serious thread.

 

[quatona]

Atheist have no sense of morality? Why not just take what you want then, kill those who stand in your way?

So far I haven´t been in a situation where - on deeper consideration and in the long term effect - killing people who stood in my way would have promised to helped my goals and purposes. Maybe you and I have different goals and purposes?

What stops you....

I guess I am looking for a good reason to do something rather than for a good reason to stop me doing something that on top I haven´t even been considering as an option.
On another note, I simply don´t like the idea of violence, so that makes a good reason already not to use it.

simple consequences for your actions (like jail time?)

Sure it´s the consequences (wherein jail time is not a consequence but an intentionally inflicted punishment. Big difference.).

 

[Penumbra]

Here is what I see from the answers. Everyone, Christian and otherwise, think being an individual is the most important aspect of life at all times. Anytime, someone makes the claim that the individual is NOT really much different than anyone else, the defensive side lashes back.

My three questions deal with your core beliefs of the following:

1: origin of man (I do not want to argue evolution, the science)
2: reasons for the evil or hate crimes and thoughts in the world
3: what needs to be done so everyone can live peaceably.

I am not trying to catch anyone, so just chill out and let's have a discussion so I can learn what makes the atheist and other secular mind frames tick.

I mean, even atheist have morality, right?

1. The origin of man is from previous creatures. If you go back all the way to the beginning of measurable history, the answer is "I don't know". Lots of religions claim to answer that, but many of them disagree with each other. We can make guesses about what happened, or we can admit we don't know and continue revealing more and more about our universe.

2. Instincts, because people all want more and look out for themselves, fear, etc.

3. I don't think it will be the case where everyone lives peacefully. We can make it significantly better by spreading education, freedom, resources, and so forth.

Animals do not know right and wrong, but humans do. Where did this come from....society?speech? Is it just a learned trait, like rubbing a dog's nose in its own urine after a carpet accident?

If humans knew right from wrong, then they'd all agree and we wouldn't any problems. Human morality is just as subjective as those of animals. Some things you probably find right, I find very wrong. Some things I find right, you probably find very wrong. So no, humans don't know "right" from "wrong" because those are subjective terms.

Governments and communities figure out a way to govern themselves, and agree that certain behavior (like murder, rape), is not good for society and so they discourage it through punishment. Different governments and communities around the world decide in different sets of morals to govern themselves with.

So far, and please correct me if I am wrong, the common thought is:

-Do what makes you happy as long as your pursuit of happiness does not interfere with another person's own pursuit for happiness.

-Help others in his/her own pursuit.....(finish sentence please)

That sounds good. I don't think that needs anything to finish it.

Wow, never heard that before. I will have to do some study before I can even respond intelligently to this post.

What he posted were the Four Noble Truths of Buddhism, followed by a few hundred million people worldwide. It's somewhat worthwhile to look into.

-Lyn

 

[Eudaimonist]

1: origin of man
2: reasons for the evil or hate crimes and thoughts in the world
3: what needs to be done so everyone can live peaceably.

Thanks, this makes your questions much clearer.

1) Evolution. I'll leave it at that.

2) We are not born with wisdom or character. We have many feelings and impulses that we need to integrate into a healthy pattern of living. When people fail to do so, evil actions are sometimes the result.

3) Utopia, unfortunately, is not an option. We will never have a completely peaceful world, although I'll bet we can do much better.

What might improve matters somewhat is to promote a way of life that honors personal excellence of wisdom, creativity, and character, and to have free societies based on the need for civilization and individuality.


eudaimonia,

Mark