Met. Jonah of the OCA on American jurisdictional unity

[E.C.]

"Aside from"?

1. Even a secular reference recognizes it is proper use of the term despot to address "a bishop or patriarch of the Eastern Orthodox Church" as such.
2. I have read that in the Greek, the priest is addressed by the deacon as despot.
3. We even refer to some of our Saints as Despots in their titles (Saint Stefan, Despot of Serbia, October 9, for example).

So, given the above facts, why would we automatically assume that Metropolitan JONAH must have meant something less than charitable when speaking of foreign despots, referring to an Orthodox Bishop who is properly and truly a despot in the best sense of the word?

I believe that in most dialects of American English, "despot" has a connotation that typically means tyrant or something the effect of a tyrant or iron-fisted ruler.

Perhaps this is a or one of the miscaricaturization which Metropolitan Jonah was speaking of in his apology.

 

[Protoevangel]

I believe that in most dialects of American English, "despot" has a connotation that typically means tyrant or something the effect of a tyrant or iron-fisted ruler.

Perhaps this is a or one of the miscaricaturization which Metropolitan Jonah was speaking of in his apology.

I tend to agree with you.

 

[Anhelyna]

Speaking here as a Brit - yes with us 'despot' does have this unfortunate connotation of tyranny .

When I first came across 'despota ' being used towards a Hierarch I blinked - until the other meaning dawned on me

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

"foreign despots" was a bit.... strong to say the least. I really do like Met. JONAH (I pray for him every day and night even though he is not my bishop) and I have great hopes for him, but they hyperbole is layed on a bit thick... even though I do believe he makes a good case FOR working toward eventual local autonomy for the Americas. And that matters more than anything. I just hope others aren't trying to learn about the EP stance from his sermon.

Joshua

The language that he used "foreign despots", are not his words but rather he is reflecting the wording used by others. We would have to go back a few weeks, reading all the letters that have been circulated from the clergy concerning this to understand why he used this language. He is being reflective.

Forgive me...

 

[Michael G]

The language that he used "foreign despots", are not his words but rather he is reflecting the wording used by others. We would have to go back a few weeks, reading all the letters that have been circulated from the clergy concerning this to understand why he used this language. He is being reflective.

Forgive me...

His Beatitude was being precise in his language in referring to "foreign despots" and not being inflamatory as many who dislike the OCA would have us believe.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

His Beatitude was being precise in his language in referring to "foreign despots" and not being inflamatory as many who dislike the OCA would have us believe.

I understood what he meant, and I recall the letters that he is referencing, even though he did not quote them verbatim. I did not view HIS statement to be inflamatory, but rather reflective of the letters that have been written concerning this matter.

It has sickened me to see how this is playing out. I certainly hope the outcome is worth the pain.

I pray for a unified Church of America.

God Bless His Grace Met. Jonah, for being willing to stand for what is canonically correct.

Forgive me...

 

[Michael G]

I understood what he meant, and I recall the letters that he is referencing, even though he did not quote them verbatim. I did not view HIS statement to be inflamatory, but rather reflective of the letters that have been written concerning this matter.

It has sickened me to see how this is playing out. I certainly hope the outcome is worth the pain.

I pray for a unified Church of America.

God Bless His Grace Met. Jonah, for being willing to stand for what is canonically correct.

Forgive me...

Yes, the OCA was blessed deeply by God when he revealed to the OCA that +JONAH was to be the next Metropolitan/Primate of the OCA!

 

[Joshua G.]

The language that he used "foreign despots", are not his words but rather he is reflecting the wording used by others. We would have to go back a few weeks, reading all the letters that have been circulated from the clergy concerning this to understand why he used this language. He is being reflective.

Forgive me...

Fair enough. It didn't effect how I viewed him anyway. Either way, Met. JONAH seemed to think that SOMETHING was less than charitable in his speech and whatever that was, he recognized it, SINCERELY apologized without looking for anything in return. How can I not have but the utmost respect for him (personally) as a role model for other Orthodox?

 

[Joshua G.]

God Bless His Grace Met. Jonah, for being willing to stand for what is canonically correct.

As important as that is, may God bless him (and us) all the more for his humility. That will help us much more with Theosis than canonical jurisdictionism can (even though, yes, it does matter... and I do agree with you on this).

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Fair enough. It didn't effect how I viewed him anyway. Either way, Met. JONAH seemed to think that SOMETHING was less than charitable in his speech and whatever that was, he recognized it, SINCERELY apologized without looking for anything in return. How can I not have but the utmost respect for him (personally) as a role model for other Orthodox?

I think it was great that he gave an apology. There are many people who are not aware of everything going on around them. I think that's for the best, "ignorance is bliss", do not disturb the children.

If he were to have tried to defend his statement, he would have had to expose more people to this pollution. It need not be so. June will be here soon.

Prayers!

Forgive me...

 

[Macarius]

I'm hopeful for June - that at least some solution, established by the conciliar mind of the Church, will be reached.

We should strongly direct our prayers towards that synod. It NEEDS the Holy Spirit's presence, desparately.

Lord, have mercy!

 

[Michael G]

I'm hopeful for June - that at least some solution, established by the conciliar mind of the Church, will be reached.

We should strongly direct our prayers towards that synod. It NEEDS the Holy Spirit's presence, desparately.

Lord, have mercy!

How can anything remotely fair be reached when North American bishops are not invited to the conference?

 

[E.C.]

How can anything remotely fair be reached when North American bishops are not invited to the conference?

Simple: crash the party

 

[Michael G]

Simple: crash the party

Fr. Patrick finds it very ironic that while the EP is having a conference discussing North American Orthodoxy the OCA will be consecrating a new bishop of Pittsburgh. God has a great way of laughing at those who are incoherent in their practices.

 

[Joshua G.]

I think it was great that he gave an apology. There are many people who are not aware of everything going on around them. I think that's for the best, "ignorance is bliss", do not disturb the children.

If he were to have tried to defend his statement, he would have had to expose more people to this pollution. It need not be so. June will be here soon.

Prayers!

Forgive me...

But Orthodoxy, you're not in the know either. Your personal info is utterly useless unless there is something I don't know about your place in the Church. I don't mean this personally against you. I'm using you as an example of all of us. That's why it is so dumb for all of us to read this or that underground newsletter or listen to the gossip by some guy who "would know".

I am convinced that it is better for us to truthfully assume that His Holiness was not lying but rather truly felt he had said uncharitable things for which he repents and apologizes for. We are all acting like we know what's really going on. It's pratronizing at best to give the Metropolitan a thumbs up for his apology and then wink at him saying "but don't worry, we know what you REALLY meant." I believer that from anything I know that has been publicly stated this man is honest and when he says that he said uncharitable things he is not just trying to protect us or making up some excuse.... he is giving sincere apology. An apology can't be sincere if in the end you don't really feel you've done anything wrong.

It's good that he apologized because his conscience told him that he was uncharitable. Not for any other reason. Otherwise, apologies are just one more cog in a game politics. We can't be so cynical as to believe that even repentance is part of a political game.

PLEASE! Let's let THEM do their jobs. By them i mean the MP, EP, Metropolitan and so on and trust them to God's providence. YOU nor I nor anyone here really knows ANYTHING other than the FACT that these are our bishops weather we agree with their opinions or not. Ignorance may be bliss.... but honestly, no matter how many people you know that are "in the know" and no matter how much you keep up on this stuff, in the end, you are just as ignorant (and I don't mean that in an insulting way) as I am. So, we can either be cynical in our ignorance or loving.

God bless the EP. God bless the MP. God bless the Metropolitan. God bless all of our bishops. Let's be a CHURCH. Let CHRIST find the Judas if one is among us. God have mercy on my very soul if I ever accuse anyone of being a Judas without firsthand knowledge. God bless the Church!

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

But Orthodoxy, you're not in the know either. Your personal info is utterly useless unless there is something I don't know about your place in the Church. I don't mean this personally against you. I'm using you as an example of all of us. That's why it is so dumb for all of us to read this or that underground newsletter or listen to the gossip by some guy who "would know".

I am convinced that it is better for us to truthfully assume that His Holiness was not lying but rather truly felt he had said uncharitable things for which he repents and apologizes for. We are all acting like we know what's really going on. It's pratronizing at best to give the Metropolitan a thumbs up for his apology and then wink at him saying "but don't worry, we know what you REALLY meant." I believer that from anything I know that has been publicly stated this man is honest and when he says that he said uncharitable things he is not just trying to protect us or making up some excuse.... he is giving sincere apology. An apology can't be sincere if in the end you don't really feel you've done anything wrong.

It's good that he apologized because his conscience told him that he was uncharitable. Not for any other reason. Otherwise, apologies are just one more cog in a game politics. We can't be so cynical as to believe that even repentance is part of a political game.

PLEASE! Let's let THEM do their jobs. By them i mean the MP, EP, Metropolitan and so on and trust them to God's providence. YOU nor I nor anyone here really knows ANYTHING other than the FACT that these are our bishops weather we agree with their opinions or not. Ignorance may be bliss.... but honestly, no matter how many people you know that are "in the know" and no matter how much you keep up on this stuff, in the end, you are just as ignorant (and I don't mean that in an insulting way) as I am. So, we can either be cynical in our ignorance or loving.

God bless the EP. God bless the MP. God bless the Metropolitan. God bless all of our bishops. Let's be a CHURCH. Let CHRIST find the Judas if one is among us. God have mercy on my very soul if I ever accuse anyone of being a Judas without firsthand knowledge. God bless the Church!

Thanks for telling me what I know and don't know.

Have a good day.

Forgive me...

 

[Protoevangel]

I am convinced that it is better for us to truthfully assume that His Holiness was not lying but rather truly felt he had said uncharitable things for which he repents and apologizes for. We are all acting like we know what's really going on. It's pratronizing at best to give the Metropolitan a thumbs up for his apology and then wink at him saying "but don't worry, we know what you REALLY meant." I believer that from anything I know that has been publicly stated this man is honest and when he says that he said uncharitable things he is not just trying to protect us or making up some excuse.... he is giving sincere apology. An apology can't be sincere if in the end you don't really feel you've done anything wrong.

It's good that he apologized because his conscience told him that he was uncharitable. Not for any other reason. Otherwise, apologies are just one more cog in a game politics. We can't be so cynical as to believe that even repentance is part of a political game.

I could not disagree with you more. Metropolitan JONAH said nothing uncharitable, and we should not assume he did. His apology was not a political game as you would sadly mischaracterize this to require. It was a shepherd tending his flock, and and a humble fellow-shepherd sensitive to the needs of his fellow shepherds and their flocks. Both his original words, and his apology were selfless and charitable. I find it a true shame you would assume that one or the other must have been less than so.

 

[Michael G]

I could not disagree with you more. Metropolitan JONAH said nothing uncharitable, and we should not assume he did. His apology was not a political game as you would sadly mischaracterize this to require. It was a shepherd tending his flock, and and a humble fellow-shepherd sensitive to the needs of his fellow shepherds and their flocks. Both his original words, and his apology were selfless and charitable. I find it a true shame you would assume that one or the other must have been less than so.

I must agree with you wholeheartedly here. Metropolitan JONAH is a model bishop. He is humble and charitable. He only seeks to guide his flock in a manner worthy of Christ and to assume anything less than that of him is a mischaracterization of him atleast. Neither his comments about the role the EP has played in creating the canonical mess in North America nor his appology were done with anything less than pure love of Christ. As I have said time and again, the OCA is greatly blessed to have such a wonderful bishop as our Primate and I stand behind him 100%!

 

[rusmeister]

Wow. Talk about an argument over nothing.

One thing I agree with Joshua on is that we should let the Church leaders do their jobs, stop criticizing so much, and pray. Having expressed our opinions, let's remember that those opinions won't affect much, and that God is really in control.

 

[Mikeb85]

How can anything remotely fair be reached when North American bishops are not invited to the conference?

Moscow and other churches that recognize the OCA's autocephalous status will be present, won't they?