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CreedIsChrist

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So... using the Bible to justify the Crusades, pogroms, the Reconquista, and the Conquest of the New World are what?


Well if you studied history you will se the Crusades were started by the Muslims, and secondly much of the Crsuades were the defending of europe from the Muslims taking over..You know? Constantinople?, byzantium? the Moors, Iberia and Spain?

Unless you prefered to have the Muslims take over europe? Don't know what our country would be like today if that happened though.

And at least the Spanish brought some sort of order to South America, considering the barbaric pagans who lived there where already commiting things like child and adult sacrifice.


I don't know about you, but I prefer to have a civilized society, rather than worrying 24/7 if one day I'll be used as a sacrifice to a pagan God and have my severed head thrown down the steps of a mayan temple. Of course you can live in New Guiniea for a while and see what our country would have been like if the New World conquest never happened..



Translation: I can't provide any actual evidence to support the idea that Leviticus is divided into different sections that allow me to cherry pick and condemn people I don't like while ignoring the parts that are inconvenient to me.


comments like this really make me wonder if you and wlf really have studied hermeneutics. Because if you did you wouldn't be making such grade-school statements
 
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b&wpac4

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Well if you studied history you will se the Crusades were started by the Muslims, and secondly much of the Crsuades were the defending of europe from the Muslims taking over..
and the slaughtering of Jewish populations in England and along the way to the Holy Lands were to protect Europe from...?
 
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BigBadWlf

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Well if you studied history you will se the Crusades were started by the Muslims, and secondly much of the Crsuades were the defending of europe from the Muslims taking over..You know? Constantinople?, byzantium? the Moors, Iberia and Spain?
What history books do you read?



The first crusade was launched by Pope Urban II in 1095 in response to an appeal from the emperor of the Byzantine Empire for volunteers to help his forces repel the Seljuk Turks in Anatolia. That turned into a religious based conquest. Over the next five centuries crusades were fought by Christians against Muslims, Slavs, Pagans, Jews, Russians and Greek Orthodox Christians, Mongols, Prussians and political enemies of the Pope.
J. Riley-Smith The Oxford History of the Crusades



And at least the Spanish brought some sort of order to South America, considering the barbaric pagans who lived there where already commiting things like child and adult sacrifice.
Again what history books are you reading?



I don't know about you, but I prefer to have a civilized society, rather than worrying 24/7 if one day I'll be used as a sacrifice to a pagan God and have my severed head thrown down the steps of a mayan temple. Of course you can live in New Guiniea for a while and see what our country would have been like if the New World conquest never happened..
Again I don’t know what history books you are reading

When Pizzaro managed to take advantage of the recent civil war in the Inca Empire the Incas were dying by the thousands because of the introduction of western diseases like small pox. Pizzaro kidnapped the emperor and held him for ransom. After getting paid off by the Inca people he did the only honorable thing he could, he gave Emperor Atahualpa a choice: the Emperor could be burned to death (the Inca believed that if one burned the body of a dead person their soul would also be consumed and destroyed by the fire…and Pizzaro knew this) or the emperor could be baptized a Christian and killed swiftly. He strangely chose to be sprinkled with water then sacrificed…err…I mean killed. So Pizzaro handed the Emperor over to Friar Vicente de Valverde who dumped water on him and then strangled him.

Sounds like the indigenous peoples of South America had a lot more to fear from their benevolent conquerors than anything else.





comments like this really make me wonder if you and wlf really have studied hermeneutics. Because if you did you wouldn't be making such grade-school statements
Yet here we all sit and you continue to make claims about this mysterious division of the law into arbitrary subsections and still you cannot provide actual evidence that such divisions exist at all.
 
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lawtonfogle

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Again what history books are you reading?
From what I know, the Aztecs sacrificed thousands, if not tens of thousands, of their captives after every large battle. While they were the most civilized in numerous ways, they were very much barbaric in this way.

But as to bringing order to the Aztecs? I have seen estimates of about 11 million Aztecs killed, of their total population of 12 million. That is enough to make even Hitler do a double take. Of course, the conquistadors methods were not quite a bad, instead of torture they just introduced diseases and fought battles where they had technology far greater advanced than their enemies, which basically led to mass slaughterings.

So, yes, they did 'civilize' them, if by that you mean pretty much exterminate them.


Again I don’t know what history books you are reading
Well, I think CIC missed the part where if you were a prisoner, you were going to be sacrificed. If you weren't a prisoner, then you would have been safe. So I to do not know where wondering about if you are going to be sacrificed or not comes from. You basically already knew.

And really, is living of fear of being sacrificed (or more so just slaughtered) for God any better?



When Pizzaro managed to take advantage of the recent civil war in the Inca Empire the Incas were dying by the thousands because of the introduction of western diseases like small pox. Pizzaro kidnapped the emperor and held him for ransom. After getting paid off by the Inca people he did the only honorable thing he could, he gave Emperor Atahualpa a choice: the Emperor could be burned to death (the Inca believed that if one burned the body of a dead person their soul would also be consumed and destroyed by the fire…and Pizzaro knew this) or the emperor could be baptized a Christian and killed swiftly. He strangely chose to be sprinkled with water then sacrificed…err…I mean killed. So Pizzaro handed the Emperor over to Friar Vicente de Valverde who dumped water on him and then strangled him.

Sounds like the indigenous peoples of South America had a lot more to fear from their benevolent conquerors than anything else.
Didn't know that. Well, seems there were some sacrifices for God then.


Yet here we all sit and you continue to make claims about this mysterious division of the law into arbitrary subsections and still you cannot provide actual evidence that such divisions exist at all.

The very fact that one needs to study some other source outside of the Bible says something about a book that is supposed to have everything inside.

Anyways, there are some clear distinctions between laws. You have the ones about sex, you have the ones about food, ect. with a few gray ones that match a couple of areas at once. Now, in the NT, the food laws are abbolished, but this is supposed to be symbolic of the abolishment of the special place of the Jews, or more so God knocking Peter on the head and saying "You know that whole veil in the temple that was torn, yeah, that veil. Well, that was the old covenent going away. Bye bye, adios, sayounara. That includes the whole Jews being special thing. So go and preach to the gentiles just as you the Jews." Of course, that is a bit of a paraphrasing/creative interpretation.

Looking at what Jesus said Himself (and if there is one part of the Bible you can't doubt else it all falls apart, what Jesus says has to be it) that not a jot or dash of the law will pass away until it is finished. So either, the full thing is in effect, or 'it' has been finished. I personally take 'it' to be the cruxifiction, and basically Jesus was saying the old covenant would hold until that very moment, even though Jesus was walking around on earth.

This is my own reasoning for not using the OT as a source of moralty. Sometimes a good guide (key word, SOMETIMES), but not a source. But it is at this point you start seeing the fundamental breakdown that gives you all your different flavors of Christianity. Or, at least, it is one of the places you see breakdowns.
 
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CreedIsChrist

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What history books do you read?



The first crusade was launched by Pope Urban II in 1095 in response to an appeal from the emperor of the Byzantine Empire for volunteers to help his forces repel the Seljuk Turks in Anatolia. That turned into a religious based conquest. Over the next five centuries crusades were fought by Christians against Muslims, Slavs, Pagans, Jews, Russians and Greek Orthodox Christians, Mongols, Prussians and political enemies of the Pope.
J. Riley-Smith The Oxford History of the Crusades

So posting a small quote from oxford does...what?..for you?? Your not able to write anything yourself? Surely if you truly have read books on this subject you would not need to post one sentence and then a small copy and paste.


Again what history books are you reading?

well apart from the 38 volumes of the Church fathers that I have, that go well into the crusades(as well as the Quran and the Hadith, Bukari, since many Muslims find Bukari the most reliable hadith), also the Hadith talks about the historical conquests of Mohammad that are considered second to the Quran, Triumph by H.W. Crocker III, Thomas E. Woods Jr. St. Francis of Assisi also goes into the Crusades. Writings of Sultan Saladin. Thomas Aquinas Summa Theoloigca. Dante Algerhi's Divine Comedy(although this is poetic work, but it does have an enormous amount of historical information in it), especially in his Inferno. The Catechism and "The Christian Faith" by Jacques Dupuis which contains doctrinal letters, some of which have to do with the crusades. Of course Oxford and newadvent, A Source Book for Ancient Church History by Joseph Cullen Ayer also is wonderful read. Dialogues against Heresies by St. Thomas More and his excerpts, and Decrees of the Ecumenical Counsels by Tanner.

So on both sides I get the views from writings from the Popes and the writings of the Muslims together. Rather than an empty cut and paste that doesn't go at all into the details of the crusades and the motives.



Again I don’t know what history books you are reading

^_^

I just find this funny considering your talking to an alleged bookworm.

When Pizzaro managed to take advantage of the recent civil war in the Inca Empire the Incas were dying by the thousands because of the introduction of western diseases like small pox. Pizzaro kidnapped the emperor and held him for ransom. After getting paid off by the Inca people he did the only honorable thing he could, he gave Emperor Atahualpa a choice: the Emperor could be burned to death (the Inca believed that if one burned the body of a dead person their soul would also be consumed and destroyed by the fire…and Pizzaro knew this) or the emperor could be baptized a Christian and killed swiftly. He strangely chose to be sprinkled with water then sacrificed…err…I mean killed. So Pizzaro handed the Emperor over to Friar Vicente de Valverde who dumped water on him and then strangled him

and again? So? another cut and paste excerpt?

I assume its talking about Francisco Pizarro.

Sounds like the indigenous peoples of South America had a lot more to fear from their benevolent conquerors than anything else.


Considering the Incas were basically a barbaric vacuum the missionaries who came to the New World saw brutality that they had never seen before. The Inca were not a civilized nation. The child sacrifice they committed was horrid and in my opinion a civilization that does child sacrifices deserves to be wiped out

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/10/071003-inca-sacrifice.html

Atlacacauallo (from February 2 to February 21)Tláloc, Chalchitlicue, EhécatlSacrifice of children and captives to the water deities

IITlacaxipehualiztli (from February 22 to March 13)Xipe Tótec, Huitzilopochtli, Tequitzin-MayáhuelSacrifice of captives; gladiatorial fighters; dances of the priest wearing the skin of the flayed victims

IIITozoztontli (from March 14 to April 2)Coatlicue, Tlaloc, Chalchitlicue, TonaType of sacrifice: extraction of the heart. Burying of the flayed human skins. Sacrifices of children

IVHueytozoztli (from April 3 to April 22)Cintéotl, Chicomecacóatl, Tlaloc, QuetzalcóatlSacrifice of a maid; of boy and girl

VToxcatl (from April 23 to May 12)Tezcatlipoca, Huitzilopochtli, Tlacahuepan, CuexcotzinSacrifice of captives by extraction of the heart

VIEtzalcualiztli (from May 13 to June 1)Tláloc, QuetzalcóatlSacrifice by drowning and extraction of the heart

VIITecuilhuitontli (from June 2 to July 21)Huixtocihuatl, XochipilliSacrifice by extraction of the heart

VIIIHueytecuihutli (from June 22 to July 11)Xilonen, Quilaztli-Cihacóatl, Ehécatl, ChicomelcóatlSacrifice of a decapitated woman and extraction of her heart

IXTlaxochimaco (from July 12 to July 31)Huitzilopochtli, Tezcatlipoca, MictlantecuhtliSacrifice by starvation in a cave or templeX
Xocotlhuetzin (from August 1 to August 20)Xiuhtecuhtli, Ixcozauhqui, Otontecuhtli, Chiconquiáhitl, Cuahtlaxayauh, Coyolintáhuatl, ChalmecacíhuatlSacrifices to the fire gods by burning the victims

XIOchpaniztli (from August 21 to September 9)Toci, Teteoinan, Chimelcóatl-Chalchiuhcíhuatl, Atlatonin, Atlauhaco, Chiconquiáuitl, CintéotlSacrifice of a decapitated young woman to Toci, she was skinned and a young man wore her skin; sacrifice of captives by hurling from a height and extraction of the heart

XIITeoleco (from September 10 to September 29)XochiquétzalSacrifices by fire; extraction of the heart

XIIITepeihuitl (from September 30 to October 19)Tláloc-Napatecuhtli, Matlalcueye, Xochitécatl, Mayáhuel, Milnáhuatl, Napatecuhtli, Chicomecóatl, XochiquétzalSacrifices of children , two noble women, extraction of the heart and flaying; ritual cannibalism

XIVQuecholli (from October 20 to November 8)Mixcóatl-Tlamatzincatl, Coatlicue, Izquitécatl, Yoztlamiyáhual, HuitznahuasSacrifice by bludgeoning, decapitation and extraction of the heart

XVPanquetzaliztli (from November 9 to November 28)HuitzilopochtliMassive sacrifices of captives and slaves by extraction of the heart

XVIAtemoztli (from November 29 to December 18)TlaloquesSacrifices of children, and slaves by decapitation

XVIITititl (from December 19 to January 7)Tona-Cozcamiauh, Ilamatecuhtli, Yacatecuhtli, HuitzilncuátecSacrifice of a woman by extraction of the heart and decapitated afterwards

XVIIIIzcalli (from January 8 to January 27)Ixozauhqui-Xiuhtecuhtli, Cihuatontli, NancotlaceuhquiSacrifices of victims representing Xiuhtecuhtli and their women (each four years), and captives. Hour: night, New FireNemontemi (from January 28 to February 1)Five ominous days at the end of the year, no ritual, general fasting





Bernal Díaz corroborates Juan Díaz's history:
“On these altars were idols with evil looking bodies, and that very night five Indians had been sacrificed before them; their chests had been cut open, and their arms and thighs had been cut off. The walls were covered with blood. We stood greatly amazed and gave the island the name isleta de Sacrificios [Island of the Sacrifices]


In The Conquest of New Spain Díaz recounted that, after landing on the coast, they came across a temple dedicated to Tezcatlipoca. "That day they had sacrificed two boys, cutting open their chests and offering their blood and hearts to that accursed idol". Díaz narrates several more sacrificial descriptions on the later Cortés expedition. Arriving at Cholula, they find "cages of stout wooden bars [...] full of men and boys who were being fattened for the sacrifice at which their flesh would be eaten".[42] When the conquistadors reached Tenochtitlan, Díaz described the sacrifices at the Great Pyramid:

“They strike open the wretched Indian's chest with flint knives and hastily tear out the palpitating heart which, with the blood, they present to the idols [...]. They cut off the arms, thighs and head, eating the arms and thighs at ceremonial banquets. The head they hang up on a beam, and the body is […] given to the beasts of prey

Cortés describes similar events in his Letters:
“They have a most horrid and abominable custom which truly ought to be punished and which until now we have seen in no other part, and this is that, whenever they wish to ask something of the idols, in order that their plea may find more acceptance, they take many girls and boys and even adults, and in the presence of these idols they open their chests while they are still alive and take out their hearts and entrails and burn them before the idols, offering the smoke as sacrifice. Some of us have seen this, and they say it is the most terrible and frightful thing they have ever witnessed




In Chapter XIV he depicts the temple in which men, women, boys and girls were sacrificed. On Chapter XXIV the Anonymous Conqueror repeatedly claims that the Aztecs were cannibals, sodomites, alcoholics and polygamists


Is that the type of people you want inhabiting your civilization?

Yet here we all sit and you continue to make claims about this mysterious division of the law into arbitrary subsections and still you cannot provide actual evidence that such divisions exist at all

lol, I had just told you the homosexuality was condemned in the NT, and thus it shows it wasn't a ceremonial law. If you actually read Leviticus with understanding and guidance you will see that certain verses talk about moral, ceremonial, and dietary law. The proof is in the context and grammar that is used. If you can't figure that out then go learn basic grammar and context.
 
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Belk

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So posting a small quote from oxford does...what?..for you?? Your not able to write anything yourself? Surely if you truly have read books on this subject you would not need to post one sentence and then a small copy and paste.

He is quoting from an authoritative source in order to disprove your assertions. Feel free to either

A) show that he has misquoted or in some other way misrepresented the authors words to make it seem that his quote disproves your position

B) show that the author he quoted, who in this case would be this fellow
Jonathan Simon Christopher Riley-Smith, K.St.J.,Ph.D. MA, Litt.D., FRHistS (born June 27, 1938) is an historian of the Crusades, and a former Dixie Professor of Ecclesiastical History. He is a Fellow of Emmanuel College, Cambridge.
He was educated at Eton College and Trinity College, Cambridge, where he took his BA (1960), MA (1964), PhD (1964), and LittD (2001).
During his career, he has taught at the University of St Andrews, Queen's College, Cambridge, Royal Holloway College, London as well as at Trinity College.
He was a founder member of the Society for the Study of the Crusades and the Latin East. He is also a Knight of Grace and Devotion, Sovereign Military Order of Malta and a Knight of Justice, Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of Saint John of Jerusalem
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Riley-Smith

is in point of fact not an authoritative source on the subject.
 
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CreedIsChrist

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He is quoting from an authoritative source in order to disprove your assertions. Feel free to either

A) show that he has misquoted or in some other way misrepresented the authors words to make it seem that his quote disproves your position

B) show that the author he quoted, who in this case would be this fellow
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Riley-Smith

is in point of fact not an authoritative source on the subject.



have you even read his excerpt? It simply supports my statement since I had said the Crusades were sparked by Muslims and started as a defense against the Muslims. And part of his excerpt reads

The first crusade was launched by Pope Urban II in 1095 in response to an appeal from the emperor of the Byzantine Empire for volunteers to help his forces repel the Seljuk Turks in Anatolia.


<staff edit> the Seljuk Turks are Muslims from the Great Seljuq Empire. All wolf is doing is trying to insult my statement while at the same time providing excerpts that support my statement, <staff edit>.That is why I asked him to write his words, not some random cut and paste<staff edit>
 
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Belk

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have you even read his excerpt? It simply supports my statement since I had said the Crusades were sparked by Muslims and started as a defense against the Muslims. And part of his excerpt reads

The first crusade was launched by Pope Urban II in 1095 in response to an appeal from the emperor of the Byzantine Empire for volunteers to help his forces repel the Seljuk Turks in Anatolia.


<staff edit> the Seljuk Turks are Muslims from the Great Seljuq Empire. All wolf is doing is trying to insult my statement while at the same time providing excerpts that support my statement, <staff edit>.That is why I asked him to write his words, not some random cut and paste <staff edit>

Ah, but I think that is the crux of the issue. You did not claim that it was sparked by the Muslims, you claimed it was started by them. Semantics, I will grant you, but they are in fact two very different things.
 
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b&wpac4

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have you even read his excerpt? It simply supports my statement since I had said the Crusades were sparked by Muslims and started as a defense against the Muslims. And part of his excerpt reads

The first crusade was launched by Pope Urban II in 1095 in response to an appeal from the emperor of the Byzantine Empire for volunteers to help his forces repel the Seljuk Turks in Anatolia.


<staff edit> the Seljuk Turks are Muslims from the Great Seljuq Empire. All wolf is doing is trying to insult my statement while at the same time providing excerpts that support my statement, <staff edit>.That is why I asked him to write his words, not some random cut and paste <staff edit>

In your opinion, are there events that occurred in the Crusades that are regrettable and should not have happened? If you feel that there are, which events would these be?

Now, how about the same question but about the Inquisition.
 
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BigBadWlf

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So posting a small quote from oxford does...what?..for you?? Your not able to write anything yourself? Surely if you truly have read books on this subject you would not need to post one sentence and then a small copy and paste.

It shows I am able to access and understand actual history and demonstrate that historians don’t agree with your unsupported claims.




lol, I had just told you the homosexuality was condemned in the NT, and thus it shows it wasn't a ceremonial law. If you actually read Leviticus with understanding and guidance you will see that certain verses talk about moral, ceremonial, and dietary law. The proof is in the context and grammar that is used. If you can't figure that out then go learn basic grammar and context.
And once again you fail to proved any biblical support for your claims about this division of the law into subsections
 
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b&wpac4

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lol, I had just told you the homosexuality was condemned in the NT, and thus it shows it wasn't a ceremonial law. If you actually read Leviticus with understanding and guidance you will see that certain verses talk about moral, ceremonial, and dietary law. The proof is in the context and grammar that is used. If you can't figure that out then go learn basic grammar and context.

I am to understand that you completely understand the basic grammar and context of Leviticus in Hebrew?
 
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Smidlee

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This is my own reasoning for not using the OT as a source of moralty. Sometimes a good guide (key word, SOMETIMES), but not a source. But it is at this point you start seeing the fundamental breakdown that gives you all your different flavors of Christianity. Or, at least, it is one of the places you see breakdowns.
I agree as a christian the Law (you referred to the OT which also recorded many evil acts) should not be the main source of morality. This is not because the Law is bad but because we have something better, the Spirit of God living within us. So if we are filled with the Holy Spirit there is no need of the Law. laws are mostly for the lawless.
Jesus taught the more is given to you the more is required. Thus the Roman law that stated that a Roman citizen had the right for a non-citizen to carry their stuff for a mile (even if they were not heading in the same direction) then Jesus told his followers to go two miles. Thus the true meaning of going the extra mile.
The sad thing about today's Christianity is christian tries to live as worldly as possible because they are free from the law. In another words it's the attitude of 'I want to be a christian but I don't want to cost me anything'.

I think we should take note that when Jesus was tempted from Satan He quoted from the OT , in fact it was the book of Deuteronomy.
 
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LightHorseman

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Well if you studied history you will se the Crusades were started by the Muslims, and secondly much of the Crsuades were the defending of europe from the Muslims taking over..You know? Constantinople?, byzantium? the Moors, Iberia and Spain?
Nope. The Crusades were started by Christians. They were preached by Urban II in response to a request for troops by Alexius Comenus of Constantinople.

Unless you prefered to have the Muslims take over europe? Don't know what our country would be like today if that happened though.
Don't get me wrong, I am thoroughly PRO-Crusade... but that doesn't alter the fact that the Crusades are an example of the Bible being used to promote violence and racial intolerance, which is the contention in discussion here.

And at least the Spanish brought some sort of order to South America, considering the barbaric pagans who lived there where already commiting things like child and adult sacrifice.
A. Judging other cultures by your own subjective standards is the height of arrogance
B. Justified or not, the conquest of South America and North America are still examples of the Bible being used to justify violence and racial intolerance, which is the contention in discussion here.


I don't know about you, but I prefer to have a civilized society, rather than worrying 24/7 if one day I'll be used as a sacrifice to a pagan God and have my severed head thrown down the steps of a mayan temple. Of course you can live in New Guiniea for a while and see what our country would have been like if the New World conquest never happened..
Red Herring. Whether or not the various European colonialist expansions were a net positive or not is not what we are discussing. You made the claim that Christians have never used the Bible to promote violence or racial hatred. This is a false claim, since there are many examples were the Bible has been used precisely thus. You can argue that the Crusades, anti-Jewish Pogroms, Cathar/Albigensian crusades, conquest of Lithuania by the Tetonic order, Reconquista and Conquest of the Americas are a good thing. Indeed, in many cases, I'll even agree with you. That doesn't alter the fact that these were violent, intolerant events that were justified by use of the Bible.






comments like this really make me wonder if you and wlf really have studied hermeneutics. Because if you did you wouldn't be making such grade-school statements[/quote]
 
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CreedIsChrist

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It shows I am able to access and understand actual history and demonstrate that historians don&#8217;t agree with your unsupported claims.
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And once again you fail to proved any biblical support for your claims about this division of the law into subsections




<staff edit>


did you even read my post? Your copy and paste supported my statement that I had written before..

And if your not gonna even study hermeneutics about the difference of moral and ceremonial law then I'm not gonna bother to answer you anymore <staff edit>


Nope. The Crusades were started by Christians. They were preached by Urban II in response to a request for troops by Alexius Comenus of Constantinople.

and what was that response in to?


Don't get me wrong, I am thoroughly PRO-Crusade... but that doesn't alter the fact that the Crusades are an example of the Bible being used to promote violence and racial intolerance, which is the contention in discussion here.

If the betterment of society and a nation is "racial intolerance" then so be it. That makes your liberal <staff edit> Obama racially intolerant too, as well as a good number of humanists and presidents. Let me ask you, how well do you think most social liberals would fair in a pagan nation?? I would love to know...


A. Judging other cultures by your own subjective standards is the height of arrogance
B. Justified or not, the conquest of South America and North America are still examples of the Bible being used to justify violence and racial intolerance, which is the contention in discussion here.

No, I'm judging these people because they commit CHILD SACRIFICE. They kill their own children and women for the fun of it and for ceremony.

The Conquest of the Americas was the expanse of the nations. It was needed. The Americas were an opportunity for a new civilized nation and economy, not a "Hutville" that doesn't progress. In fact the indigenous population in North America actually came through the Berring Straight from Asia. America was never a one mans land.


Red Herring. Whether or not the various European colonialist expansions were a net positive or not is not what we are discussing. You made the claim that Christians have never used the Bible to promote violence or racial hatred. This is a false claim, since there are many examples were the Bible has been used precisely thus. You can argue that the Crusades, anti-Jewish Pogroms, Cathar/Albigensian crusades, conquest of Lithuania by the Tetonic order, Reconquista and Conquest of the Americas are a good thing. Indeed, in many cases, I'll even agree with you. That doesn't alter the fact that these were violent, intolerant events that were justified by use of the Bible.

Something that is done for the betterment of society is not "intolerant". In fact I could just come back and say the Indigenous population was "intolerant" for the new change. And in reality "intolerance" is really just a liberal definition today of "they don't agree with us".

Secondly the reason why they were wiped out was not because of they skin color, but was because of their horrible barbaric society and civilization and what little value they had on human life. Sane people do not want to live around people who cut open people and pull their hearts out and sacrifice their children to Gods.
 
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LightHorseman

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and what was that response in to?
Essentially? Nothing. Alexius had in mind a few companies of elite european knights, and the Byzyntines had a long history of emplying mercenaries. Peter the Hermit et al blew things completely out of proportion. Couple this with the over population of Europe in the context of the time, and all the younger sons of the nobility who, under salic law, were essentially dispossessed, had no option but conquest or the monastary. The Crusades were many things to many people, but a proportional response to Islamic threat, they weren't.
If the betterment of society and a nation is "racial intolerance" then so be it. That makes your liberal <staff edit> Obama racially intolerant too, as well as a good number of humanists and presidents. Let me ask you, how well do you think most social liberals would fair in a pagan nation?? I would love to know...
Always a good tactic. If shown up, bluster.

Obama is not my Messiah, I supported McCain. I am on record here and elsewhere as having done so. But that is all utterly beside the point. You made the claim that Christians don't use the Bible to support racial intolerance and violence, this is a false claim, since there are clear examples of Christians doing precisely this. You can justify and moralise all you like, it doesn't change the FACT that you were WRONG when you said the Bible isn't used to justify violence.
No, I'm judging these people because they commit CHILD SACRIFICE. They kill their own children and women for the fun of it and for ceremony.
Wow. Just wow... For the fun of it? Well I can see your clearly interested in genuinely attempting to understand other cultures.
The Conquest of the Americas was the expanse of the nations. It was needed. The Americas were an opportunity for a new civilized nation and economy, not a "Hutville" that doesn't progress. In fact the indigenous population in North America actually came through the Berring Straight from Asia. America was never a one mans land.
That has nothing to do with the FACT that the expansion into both the Americas was use of force by Europeans, and the use of this force was justified using the Bible.
Something that is done for the betterment of society is not "intolerant". In fact I could just come back and say the Indigenous population was "intolerant" for the new change. And in reality "intolerance" is really just a liberal definition today of "they don't agree with us".
So, the wholesale extermination and disposession of the native Lithuanian population was done for their benefit huh? I wonder if ANY contemporary Lithuanian, Bogomil or Cathar would agree with you? I wonder if, say, a Muslim invading Army that burnt down your village, raped your women, and either killed you, sold you into slavery, or forced you to convert at the point of the sword, if you would be so happy with subsequent generations justifying it as "for the betterment of society"?
Secondly the reason why they were wiped out was not because of they skin color, but was because of their horrible barbaric society and civilization and what little value they had on human life. Sane people do not want to live around people who cut open people and pull their hearts out and sacrifice their children to Gods.
Your idea of civilised people, maybe not. But then, civilised people are free to stay in their own country and not use the Bible as an excuse to destroy entire civilisations in the pursuit of gold and land.
 
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LightHorseman

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CreedisChrist, I would sincerely appreciate a direct answer to this question;

"So, the wholesale extermination and disposession of the native Lithuanian population was done for their benefit huh? I wonder if ANY contemporary Lithuanian, Bogomil or Cathar would agree with you? I wonder if, say, a Muslim invading Army that burnt down your village, raped your women, and either killed you, sold you into slavery, or forced you to convert at the point of the sword, if you would be so happy with subsequent generations justifying it as "for the betterment of society"? "
 
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That has nothing to do with the FACT that the expansion into both the Americas was use of force by Europeans, and the use of this force was justified using the Bible.
I thought it was because the use of guns, thus the second amendment. There seems to be a connection between building up armament as well as advances in technology and war. Now we war in the name of Democracy.
 
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I thought it was because the use of guns, thus the second amendment. There seems to be a connection between building up armament as well as advances in technology and war. Now we war in the name of Democracy.
Um... the 2nd ammendment is about 300 years after we're talking about, and only relevant to about a quarter of the land mass we're discussing, but as an American, I forgive you your 1776 onwards, the-world-exists-between-the pacific-and-atlantic world view.
 
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CreedIsChrist

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Essentially? Nothing. Alexius had in mind a few companies of elite european knights, and the Byzyntines had a long history of emplying mercenaries. Peter the Hermit et al blew things completely out of proportion. Couple this with the over population of Europe in the context of the time, and all the younger sons of the nobility who, under salic law, were essentially dispossessed, had no option but conquest or the monastary. The Crusades were many things to many people, but a proportional response to Islamic threat, they weren't.Always a good tactic. If shown up, bluster.

Obama is not my Messiah, I supported McCain. I am on record here and elsewhere as having done so. But that is all utterly beside the point. You made the claim that Christians don't use the Bible to support racial intolerance and violence, this is a false claim, since there are clear examples of Christians doing precisely this. You can justify and moralise all you like, it doesn't change the FACT that you were WRONG when you said the Bible isn't used to justify violence.Wow. Just wow... For the fun of it? Well I can see your clearly interested in genuinely attempting to understand other cultures.That has nothing to do with the FACT that the expansion into both the Americas was use of force by Europeans, and the use of this force was justified using the Bible.So, the wholesale extermination and disposession of the native Lithuanian population was done for their benefit huh? I wonder if ANY contemporary Lithuanian, Bogomil or Cathar would agree with you? I wonder if, say, a Muslim invading Army that burnt down your village, raped your women, and either killed you, sold you into slavery, or forced you to convert at the point of the sword, if you would be so happy with subsequent generations justifying it as "for the betterment of society"? Your idea of civilised people, maybe not. But then, civilised people are free to stay in their own country and not use the Bible as an excuse to destroy entire civilisations in the pursuit of gold and land.



Your using the same <staff edit> argument over and over again "they did it because of racial intolerance in the bible" . As if saying the same thing over and over <staff edit> actually changes things..

But wait a second, I can do the same thing? I could say the indigenous populations were "intolerant" of the European countries and provided opposition to them, killing their captives and skinning them alive? Or killing children in school like the Enoch Brown Massacre?. Thats quite intolerant of them isn't it?? So where do we go with that? 2 'intolerant' groups of people fighting. From that point on you have to chose which society is more civilized than the other and which provides better national security and economy..

Like I said, if intolerance is connected with wanting the betterment of society, then everyone is intolerant. So the argument doesn't work. To act as if everything the social liberals protect are somehow immune to intolerance is just political correctness and rhetoric.

And your telling me that Pope Urban sent all of his troops and raised all that money to send them for ,, ,nothing? Is that your answer?

Of course he wasn't sending them to defend Byzantium from the turks, no no no, he did it for absolutely nothing because going to war for nothing and wasting money on it is the most reasonable way. :doh:

Whatever the ultimate causes of the crusade, the most immediate factor was a request for assistance from Byzantine emperor Alexius I Comnenus. Alexius was worried about the advances of the Turks, who had reached as far west as Nicaea, not far from Constantinople

Peter the hermit blew things outta proportion? Hmmm, so the Muslims eventually taking over Constantinople and the Byzantium empire forcing Christians to live under brutal Islamic law and jiyza tax is "blowing it outta proportion" right??

The Moors trying to take over Spain which sparked the Spanish Inquisition(where only 5,000 people actually died in) is being blown outta proportion right?..
 
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