On atheists and Hell...

[PastorJim]

Aaaand back to the OP:

Why does he let [atheists] live only to be tortured in the flames of Hell for all eternity?

Free will or not - God knows where people will end up, right? He is omniscient, right? And atheists go to Hell, and God knows this, and allows it.

This scenario doesn't bother you?

Nope. Not even a little bit.

 

[truthshift]

Of course. God respects their free will.

That still begs the questions:

If they have free will, how can God know what they will do ahead of time?

If he knows what they will do ahead of time, how can they have free will?

It is a logical impossibility for anyone to understand the future and everyone else have free will. If there is a path that will be taken, there is no free will.

If God does not know what happen, we can safely say that we have free will because no one knows what will happen and decisions can be made that will alter the future.

I have yet to see anyone be able to answer the question of free will and God without answering that there is no free will.

 

[PastorJim]

Hell is an eternity in which a person chooses of their own free will to be seperate from God.

Huh. You say that Hell is an eternity where a person chooses of their own free will to be seperate from God (although, how one can be seperate from an omnipresent being, I have no idea), and the Bible says that sinners are already enemies of God and are sent, by Christ, to Hell after being judged to have died in their sins.

Which one should I believe?

 

[PastorJim]

That still begs the questions:

If they have free will, how can God know what they will do ahead of time?

Because God is omnipotent.

If he knows what they will do ahead of time, how can they have free will?

That God knows what a person will choose to do doesn't mean that they don't choose it.

It is a logical impossibility for anyone to understand the future and everyone else have free will. If there is a path that will be taken, there is no free will.

I disagree.

If God does not know what happen, we can safely say that we have free will because no one knows what will happen and decisions can be made that will alter the future.

And that would be open theism, which is heresy.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Basically what you're trying to do here is make God out to be some vengeful hateful being. Nothing we say is going to change that perception. You can't reconcile a God that would send people to hell, but what we're trying to tell you is that it's not God who sends them there...it's people by their own rejection of Him. And if God knows that someone is going to reject him, you ask why he doesn't just kill them. Why would he do that? What good reason does it serve for him to kill off an unbeliever. You may not believe, but perhaps something in your life has contributed to someone else believing.

Everything works out towards God's glory.

Does it make me happy that there will be people suffering in hell? Of course not. But that is by their own doing.

 

[Oneofthediaspora]

Aaaand back to the OP:

Why does he let [atheists] live only to be tortured in the flames of Hell for all eternity?

Free will or not - God knows where people will end up, right? He is omniscient, right? And atheists go to Hell, and God knows this, and allows it.

This scenario doesn't bother you?

Read Boethius' "Consolation of Philosophy" (thank you Sidhe for reminding me of the title) for a better understanding of omniscience.
If God exists (and I'm guessing you don't believe that so we are off to a bad start theologically anyway) then He is eternal and outside of time. He is also omniscient. There are no tenses for God. He perceives everything in the present tense. There is no "time" for Him to be in.
He sees all eventualities in the eternal "now". That's omniscience, which is very different from determinism or predestination and is one of the reasons why I would reject both doctrines. They limit both God's omniscience and our own free will.

 

[paug]

Ok, let me summarise:

Let's say I die an atheist, and suffer in the fiery pits of Hell for all eternity. God knew this all along, and chose this fate for me / chose not to intervene to make me a believer.

And you're suggesting that e.g. my life has contributed to someone else believing? This makes it OK, as if there were no easier way?

What I'm having trouble with is the inexplicable injustice which is a person who, simply for not believing in Jesus Christ, will be sent to be tortured for all eternity in the fiery pits of Hell. What that makes me think of is a petty God.

And as far as I can tell, also little Mwujambu boy enjoys that same fate - through no fault of his own.

And you said that Hell is for those who "actively deny Jesus Christ", i.e. know about him (i.e. have heard about him?) but still choose to deny him. The only way I can conceive of this happening is that people who have never heard of Jesus Christ, and thus can't believe in him, are saved, and go to... Heaven?

Well it must be a nice surprise

 

[Oneofthediaspora]

Which one should I believe?

Which ever one you want Jim.
But there are better theologians and better scriptural exegetes than me or you through the the history of Christianity who have defined hell as the eternal seperation of a soul from God.
Also if you are looking for an argument from majority, then the vast majority of Christians hold a similar view.

 

[PastorJim]

What I'm having trouble with is the inexplicable injustice which is a person who, simply for not believing in Jesus Christ, will be sent to be tortured for all eternity in the fiery pits of Hell. What that makes me think of is a petty God.

What it makes me think is that you really don't care what Christianity teaches because nowhere in the Bible or in Christian teaching will you find that people go to Hell because they don't believe in Jesus.

And as far as I can tell, also little Mwujambu boy enjoys that same fate - through no fault of his own.

So then, even though God has given this child an opportunity to be saved, and even though the child may be saved automatically by the age of accountability, you've consigned him to Hell?

If you're so willing to declare that this child should go to Hell, then why criticize God?

You've condemned the child. God has given the child an opportunity to be saved. God is not the bad guy here.

 

[PastorJim]

Which ever one you want Jim.

Really? So then, you believe that your opinion is on a par with God's word?

But there are better theologians and better scriptural exegetes than me or you through the the history of Christianity who have defined hell as the eternal seperation of a soul from God.
Also if you are looking for an argument from majority, then the vast majority of Christians hold a similar view.

There are about 5,000,000,000 people on the planet and I don't care if they all believe it. I'm still going to believe the Bible.

 

[Ryal Kane]

Assuming for the sake of argument that God exists and that he wants what's best, I can think of several alternatives to hell off the top of my head.

-Allow the dead to decide. Why limit you to choices made while alive?

-Reincarnate souls until they are able to enter heaven.

-Create an alternative place that is neither heaven nor hell.

If I can come up with these options, then I'm sure a deity can do much better.

Of course none of these options benefit recruitment to a religion so it's easy to understand why they've been dismissed over the ages.

 

[PastorJim]

Assuming for the sake of argument that God exists and that he wants what's best, I can think of several alternatives to hell off the top of my head.

-Allow the dead to decide. Why limit you to choices made while alive?

-Reincarnate souls until they are able to enter heaven.

-Create an alternative place that is neither heaven nor hell.

If I can come up with these options, then I'm sure a deity can do much better.

And when you're as holy and as just as God, get back to me.

 

[paug]

What it makes me think is that you really don't care what Christianity teaches because nowhere in the Bible or in Christian teaching will you find that people go to Hell because they don't believe in Jesus.

haha, believe it or not, I was going to substitute "believe" in my post with this: "not born again, not repented of their sins and not put their faith in Christ's atonement on their behalf" but I couldn't be bothered to go find the quote...

 

[Oneofthediaspora]

Really? So then, you believe that your opinion is on a par with God's word?
Not too sure how you got from the quote you posted to the question you asked. Did you miss something out or would you explain what appears to me a non-sequitur?



There are about 5,000,000,000 people on the planet and I don't care if they all believe it. I'm still going to believe the Bible.

No Jim; you are going to believe your interpretation of the Bible. It's an important differentiation to make. What is it that makes your interpretation infallible BTW?
Me; I'll go with the Church's teaching on this one. You see there is always the possibility that on my own I might interpret things wrongly and so it's good practice for me to listen to better and holier men and women than myself.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Ok, let me summarise:

Let's say I die an atheist, and suffer in the fiery pits of Hell for all eternity. God knew this all along, and chose this fate for me / chose not to intervene to make me a believer.

If I knew you wouldn't budge off the train tracks no matter how hard I pushed, but I kept telling you about the train coming, would your death still be on my hands when the train came and killed you?

And you're suggesting that e.g. my life has contributed to someone else believing? This makes it OK, as if there were no easier way?

I was pointing out different reasons why God wouldn't kill you just because you're an atheist.

What I'm having trouble with is the inexplicable injustice which is a person who, simply for not believing in Jesus Christ, will be sent to be tortured for all eternity in the fiery pits of Hell. What that makes me think of is a petty God.

Well, as has been pointed out, one doesn't go to hell simply for not believing in Jesus. There has to be active rejection. You didn't die on the train tracks because you didn't believe the train was coming, you died on the track because by your not moving, you actively rejected the fact that a train was coming.

And as far as I can tell, also little Mwujambu boy enjoys that same fate - through no fault of his own.

When it comes to those who have not yet heard the word, we do rely on the grace and mercy of God.

And you said that Hell is for those who "actively deny Jesus Christ", i.e. know about him (i.e. have heard about him?) but still choose to deny him. The only way I can conceive of this happening is that people who have never heard of Jesus Christ, and thus can't believe in him, are saved, and go to... Heaven?

Well it must be a nice surprise

Perhaps, perhaps not. I do not know the mind of God to know how He will handle such situations where the deceased could not have known about God's existence.

But those who know of him and have actively rejected him have no such reason or excuse.

 

[morningstar2651]

Hell is an eternity in which a person chooses of their own free will to be seperate from God.
Heaven is an eternity in the prescence of God.

If someone cannot abide to be in God's prescence then they choose hell. There are none in hell who do not prefer it to the prescence of God.

Does that include Judaism? They want to be separate from God too?

 

[PastorJim]

No Jim; you are going to believe your interpretation of the Bible.

It has nothing to do with my interpretation.

It's an important differentiation to make. What is it that makes your interpretation infallible BTW?

My interpretation isn't infallible. Neither is your pope's.

Me; I'll go with the Church's teaching on this one.

So do I, inasfar as the church's teaching is Biblical.

You see there is always the possibility that on my own I might interpret things wrongly and so it's good practice for me to listen to better and holier men and women than myself.

I'm at least as holy as your pope (actually, every born again believe is at least as holy as your pope), so we don't need to rely on somebody because they're "holier".

 

[Washington]

Yes, God is good. Who but a good God would provide even those who have never heard of Him with an opportunity to be saved?

And in the Bible this is written where?

If someone cannot abide to be in God's prescence then they choose hell. There are none in hell who do not prefer it to the prescence of God.

You obviously miss one of the points here. If one is unaware of a choice why does god punish him for it?

Basically what you're trying to do here is make God out to be some vengeful hateful being.

Actually, it's how Christians describe god that makes him out to be some vengeful hateful being. I don't think any of the non-Christians here have said anything that doesn't coincide with the nature of god as presented by Christians.


Moreover, paug's point is well taken. If the Christian is going to contend his god is omnipotent, without qualification, then by definition that god knows exactly how everyone is going to turn out, and whether they will be going to heaven or hell. To deny this is to deny god's supposed omnipotence. So it all comes down to a rather meaningless game of his. He knows it's outcome, but nevertheless enjoys watching it play out. . . . . . or . . . maybe doesn't give a hoot.

 

[PastorJim]

And in the Bible this is written where?

Romans 1-2, among other places.

 

[Washington]

Romans 1-2, among other places.

Sorry, but I saw nothing that even suggested that those "who have never heard of Him [have] an opportunity to be saved." Perhaps you might post the specific scripture you have in mind. Thank you.