Roman church errors and inventions

[Rick Otto]

Good Day,

The Roman church still pretending to have authority of the apostles...



"But that they who are at Rome do not observe those things in all cases which are handed down from the beginning, and vainly pretend the authority of the apostles...Whence it appears that this tradition is of men which maintains heretics, and asserts that they have baptism, which belongs to the Church alone....For as a heretic may not lawfully ordain nor lay on hands, so neither may he baptize, nor do any thing holily or spiritually, since he is an alien from spiritual and deifying sanctity....And this indeed you Africans are able to say against Stephen [bishop of Rome], that when you knew the truth you forsook the error of custom. But we join custom to truth, and to the Romans' custom we oppose custom, but the custom of truth; holding from the beginning that which was delivered by Christ and the apostles." (in Cyprian's Letter 74:6-7, 74:19)

In Him,

Bill[/quote]
So was Cyprian Anti-Catholic, or Anti-Roman, or is Roman actualy catholic, or at least,... what were those things handed down from "the beginning" that "those from Rome" did not in all cases "observe"?
And in what ways did Cyprian observe them vainly pretending to have the authority of the apostles?

 

[D'Ann]

Interesting thread. I want to add something... but can't think of one thing to add.

Interesting though.

God Bless

 

[Canaan-84]

Typology as far as the coming of the son of God is present in other 'revelations" no objection there... It is part of the "spermatikos" logos. But that is not what I am talking about....I think we crossed wires somewhere here...

This is what I'm talking about:

Comparing Horus (who was worshipped thousands of years before Christianity) to Jesus.

Father:
Horus: Only begotten son of the God Osiris.
Jesus: Only begotten son of Yehovah (in the form of the Holy Spirit).

Mother:
Horus: Meri
Jesus: Miriam (a.k.a. Mary)

Foster father:
Horus: Seb, (Jo-Seph)
Jesus: Joseph

Foster father's ancestry:
Horus: Of royal descent
Jesus: Of royal descent

Annunciation:
Horus: By an angel to Isis, his mother
Jesus: By an angel to Miriam, his mother

Birth heralded by:
Horus: The star Sirius, the morning star
Jesus: An unidentified "star in the East."

Birth date:
Horus: Ancient Egyptians paraded a manger and child representing Horus through the streets at the time of the winter solstice (typically DEC-21).
Jesus: Celebrated on DEC-25. The date was chosen to occur on the same date as the birth of Mithra, Dionysus and the Sol Invictus (unconquerable Sun), etc.

Later witnesses to birth:
Horus: Three solar deities
Jesus: Three wise men

Death threat during infancy:
Horus: Herut tried to have Horus murdered
Jesus: Herod tried to have Jesus murdered

Break in life history:
Horus: No data between ages of 12 & 30
Jesus:

Age at baptism:
Horus: 30
Jesus: 30

Baptized by:
Horus: Anup the Baptiser
Jesus: John the Baptist

Subsequent fate of the baptiser
Horus: Beheaded
Jesus: Beheaded

Temptation
Horus: Taken from the desert of Amenta up a high mountain by his arch-rival Sut. Sut (a.k.a. Set) was a precursor for the Hebrew Satan.
Jesus: Taken from the desert in Palestine up a high mountain by his arch-rival Satan

Method of death
Horus: By crucifixion
Jesus: By crucifixion

Accompanied by
Horus: Two thieves
Jesus: Two thieves

Fate after death
Horus: Descended into Hell; resurrected after three days
Jesus: Descended into Hell; resurrected after about 30 to 38 hours (Friday PM to presumably some time in Sunday AM) covering parts of three days.

Resurrection announced by
Horus: women
Jesus: women

Future
Horus: Reign for 1,000 years in the Millennium
Jesus: Reign for 1,000 years in the Millennium

Criteria for salvation at the place of judgment
Horus: "I have given bread to the hungry man and water to the thirsty man and clothing to the naked person and a boat to the shipwrecked mariner
Jesus: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me..." Matthew 25:35-36 (KJV)

There's more on this site: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5.htm

So, you shouldn't attack the Church for sharing some things with pagans when the Bible itself shares things from pagan religions.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Dear LLOJ,

You are certainly doing your best - and a good job at that.

We are, perhaps, broken, but not divided, and at the end, we shall know what we only grasp now in part. But an humble and a contrite heart He will not despise.

Too much division, too much contention, too little love. Do we all err? Is there one who is righteous, except for the Lord? My sins are scarlet, yet He can make me white; should I not then forgive, even as I hope for forgiveness? Does Rome err? Is it filled with humans? We err and stray from His ways like lost sheep - but He is the Good Shepherd.

Have we time to point a finger at the sins of others? It sometimes seems that there is scarce time to recollect my own, let alone try to repent of them. Let the dead bury the dead, and let us all pray for forgiveness in true repentance.

Peace upon this house,

Anglian

Greeting Anglian. I point the finger at no one concerning sinning. What I am concerned about, especially with Catholism and the Roman church is their interpretation of some of the Gospels and Epistles.

If I am not mistaken, they believe most of the Olivet Discourse was fulfilled on OC Jerusalem, but then they say Pagan Rome is that Great City in Revelation and they are now in the Millenium waiting for JESUS to return YET AGAIN in the future.

The Olivet Discourse is Daniel/Revelation so one cannot seperate the 2 without corrupting the NT I would think. I have this thread on Matthew 24:6 that I found interesting. Peace

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7274583
Matthew 24:6 verse word study

This is interesting. The greek word for "alarmed" #2360 is used only in 3 verses: Matt 24:6, Mark 13:7 and 2 Thess 2:2.

Textus Rec.) Matthew 24:6 mellhsete de akouein polemouV kai akoaV polemwn orate mh qroeisqe dei gar panta genesqai all oupw estin to teloV

Matt 24:6 "Ye shall be being about yet to be hearing battles and hearings of battles. Be ye seeing! no be being alarmed/qroeisqe <2360> (5744), for it is binding *all to be becoming, but not as yet is the Finish/End" [Mark 13:7, Luke 21:9]

2 Thessalonians 2:2 Into the no swiftly to be shaken ye from the mind no-yet to be being alarmed/qroeisqai <2360> (5745) neither by spirit neither by word neither by epistle as thru us that is present the Day of the Lord.

2360. throeo thro-eh'-o from threomai to wail; to clamor, i.e. (by implication) to frighten:--trouble

 

[Anglian]

Dear LLOJ,

We shall have to wait to hear from some of our Catholic friends about the Olivet discourse.

I remain mindful that the text and canon we have of the NT is the product of its reception by the early Church, so if there is any corruption of the NT it would be a moot point where any such ideas entered in.

Of course, the notion that a Church's interpretation of Scripture might corrupt it does rather assume that one is in a position oneself to pronounce authoritatively upon what is, and is not, orthodox, and since, as I understand it, it is the Catholic claim to such authority which is being disputed here, a certain circularity enters the discussion

Protestants deny the claims of the Catholic Church based upon their own reading of Scripture; Catholics have no reason to accept such claims since they see no authority behind them. So the cycle continues.

Peace,

Anglian

 

[Mikeb85]

This is what I'm talking about:

Comparing Horus (who was worshipped thousands of years before Christianity) to Jesus.

Father:
Horus: Only begotten son of the God Osiris.
Jesus: Only begotten son of Yehovah (in the form of the Holy Spirit).

Mother:
Horus: Meri
Jesus: Miriam (a.k.a. Mary)

Foster father:
Horus: Seb, (Jo-Seph)
Jesus: Joseph

Foster father's ancestry:
Horus: Of royal descent
Jesus: Of royal descent

Annunciation:
Horus: By an angel to Isis, his mother
Jesus: By an angel to Miriam, his mother

Birth heralded by:
Horus: The star Sirius, the morning star
Jesus: An unidentified "star in the East."

Birth date:
Horus: Ancient Egyptians paraded a manger and child representing Horus through the streets at the time of the winter solstice (typically DEC-21).
Jesus: Celebrated on DEC-25. The date was chosen to occur on the same date as the birth of Mithra, Dionysus and the Sol Invictus (unconquerable Sun), etc.

Later witnesses to birth:
Horus: Three solar deities
Jesus: Three wise men

Death threat during infancy:
Horus: Herut tried to have Horus murdered
Jesus: Herod tried to have Jesus murdered

Break in life history:
Horus: No data between ages of 12 & 30
Jesus:

Age at baptism:
Horus: 30
Jesus: 30

Baptized by:
Horus: Anup the Baptiser
Jesus: John the Baptist

Subsequent fate of the baptiser
Horus: Beheaded
Jesus: Beheaded

Temptation
Horus: Taken from the desert of Amenta up a high mountain by his arch-rival Sut. Sut (a.k.a. Set) was a precursor for the Hebrew Satan.
Jesus: Taken from the desert in Palestine up a high mountain by his arch-rival Satan

Method of death
Horus: By crucifixion
Jesus: By crucifixion

Accompanied by
Horus: Two thieves
Jesus: Two thieves

Fate after death
Horus: Descended into Hell; resurrected after three days
Jesus: Descended into Hell; resurrected after about 30 to 38 hours (Friday PM to presumably some time in Sunday AM) covering parts of three days.

Resurrection announced by
Horus: women
Jesus: women

Future
Horus: Reign for 1,000 years in the Millennium
Jesus: Reign for 1,000 years in the Millennium

Criteria for salvation at the place of judgment
Horus: "I have given bread to the hungry man and water to the thirsty man and clothing to the naked person and a boat to the shipwrecked mariner
Jesus: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me..." Matthew 25:35-36 (KJV)

There's more on this site: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5.htm

So, you shouldn't attack the Church for sharing some things with pagans when the Bible itself shares things from pagan religions.

Anyone who has studied ancient Egyptian religion knows that most of this information regarding Horus is bogus...

 

[toirewadokodesuka]

Yeah... I respect you.... But I don't respect your RC Church.

You know what they say, "Love the sinner, but hate the sin!"

The same goes for Pentecostalism.

 

[Anglian]

If sin is that which separates us from God, then surely to call anyone's Church a sin is to say that it separates them from God. If we honestly think that about anyone's Church, we may need to ponder who died and gave us the authority to make such comments. The one who died for our sins seemed keener on love than some of those who claim to speak in His name.

peace,

Anglian

 

[Meshavrischika]

stupid double post thing

 

[Meshavrischika]

You don't think some church bodies seperate from God? I sure do. Some places are full of lifeless people following a lifeless leader listening to things that (guess what)... have no life in them. That is a sin... That is "missing the mark". Sin is not limited to just the 'to do" or "do not do" in the bible. Far from it.

 

[seeker777]

The Roman Catholic Church's infallible proclamation that a Catholic who marries in a Protestant Church without dispensation from the Bishop, has in fact an invalid marriage in the eyes of the Church and in the eyes of God.

IMO, that seems like a strong arm tactic in assuring that Catholics stay in the Church and keep their money and support within the Church.

 

[Anglian]

The Roman Catholic Church's infallible proclamation that a Catholic who marries in a Protestant Church without dispensation from the Bishop, has in fact an invalid marriage in the eyes of the Church and in the eyes of God.

IMO, that seems like a strong arm tactic in assuring that Catholics stay in the Church and keep their money and support within the Church.

Dear Seeker,

That, of course, is entirely possible, but two points if I may:
1. There has been no infallible pronouncement; indeed, if memory serves me correctly, the Holy See has made very few pronouncements infallibly since 1871.
2. This could simply be the logical outcome of Catholic ecclesiology. If the only Church possessing the fullness of the Faith is the Catholic Church, then only a wedding with the consent of the Church is valid. The fact that the Church allows such wedding with an episcopal dispensation seems a sensible pastoral provision from that point of view.

peace,

Anglian

 

[Anglian]

Dear ElsanRandiMom,

You make a good point here:

You don't think some church bodies seperate from God? I sure do. Some places are full of lifeless people following a lifeless leader listening to things that (guess what)... have no life in them. That is a sin... That is "missing the mark". Sin is not limited to just the 'to do" or "do not do" in the bible. Far from it.

Sin is what separates us from God - and alas, in this world, there is so much that tends in that direction.

Reading through this thread earlier I was tempted to think that there were an awful lot of Christians about who obviously belong to Churches where no one errs and all are righteous; guess I just never meet such folk, alas.

Peace,

Anglian

 

[seeker777]

Dear Seeker,

That, of course, is entirely possible, but two points if I may:
1. There has been no infallible pronouncement

The Church is infallible in all areas of faith and morals.

Infallibility

In general, exemption or immunity from liability to error or failure; in particular in theological usage, the supernatural prerogative by which the Church of Christ is, by a special Divine assistance, preserved from liability to error in her definitive dogmatic teaching regarding matters of faith and morals. In this article the subject will be treated under the following heads:

 

[Anglian]

Dear Seeker,

Thank you. But is this a dogma or doctrine of the Church, or just pastoral advice? The Papacy has made few pronouncements exercising the infallibility it claimed in 1871; which kind of makes one wonder why it was needed.

Thanks for the correction.

Peace,

Anglian

 

[Canaan-84]

The Church is infallible in all areas of faith and morals.

Infallibility

In general, exemption or immunity from liability to error or failure; in particular in theological usage, the supernatural prerogative by which the Church of Christ is, by a special Divine assistance, preserved from liability to error in her definitive dogmatic teaching regarding matters of faith and morals. In this article the subject will be treated under the following heads:

Infallibility has only been used twice since it was established in the 1800s.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Infallibility has only been used twice since it was established in the 1800s.

Don't be like "Peter".

I found this interesting while translating/harmonizing Matt 24 to Revelation/Daniel.

Notice where this form of the greek word for "snare/offended/stumbled" is used.

Matt 24:10 "And then shall be being snared/stumbled/skandalisqhsontai <4624> (5701) many, and one another they shall be delivering-up, and they shall be hating one another.

Matt 26:33 Answering yet the Peter said to Him "if all shall be being snared/stumbled/skandalisqhsontai <4624> (5701) in Thee, I not-ever shall be being snared/stumbled/skandalisqhsomai <4624> (5701)" [Mark 14:29]

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=48270568#post48270568
Matthew 24:10 verse word study only

 

[seeker777]

Infallibility has only been used twice since it was established in the 1800s.

The Church infallible in all areas of faith and morals.

If you dispute this, prepare yourself to receive nothing but Roman Catholic writings that clearly express this fact.

I am not talking about papal infallibility. I am talking about the Church claiming that it is infallible in all areas of faith and morals.

Do you dispute this?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Dear ElsanRandiMom,
You make a good point here:
Sin is what separates us from God - and alas, in this world, there is so much that tends in that direction.
Reading through this thread earlier I was tempted to think that there were an awful lot of Christians about who obviously belong to Churches where no one errs and all are righteous; guess I just never meet such folk, alas.
Peace,
Anglian

Greetings Anglian. There is one group that appears to be "flawless", and that in the Jewish/Hebrew book of Revelation. I may start a thread on this.

Maybe this is where the Roman church got the idea of their priests being unmarried and celibate Thoughts?

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Reve 14:4 These are who with women not were polluted. For virgins they are, these the ones following to-the lambkin wherever it may be leading. These are bought/purchased from the men firstfruit to the God and to the lambkin.
5 And in the mouth of them not was found falsehood, for flawless/blameness they are [T-R adds: *before the throne of the God]. [Revelation 11:3/7:13]

299. amomos am'-o-mos from 1 (as a negative particle) and 3470; unblemished (literally or figuratively):--without blame (blemish, fault, spot), faultless, unblamable.
3470. momos mo'-mos perhaps from 3201; a flaw or blot, i.e. (figuratively) disgraceful person:--blemish.

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

The Roman Catholic Church's infallible proclamation that a Catholic who marries in a Protestant Church without dispensation from the Bishop, has in fact an invalid marriage in the eyes of the Church and in the eyes of God.

IMO, that seems like a strong arm tactic in assuring that Catholics stay in the Church and keep their money and support within the Church.

It's a way of ensuring that the marriage is sacramental. I don't see what your complaint in really about- seeing how Catholics can marry protestants outside of the Church.

Furthermore, the Catholic Church is not some denomination that is run by men. It is the Church created by Jesus Christ Himself. The authority of the Church comes by succession from the apostles. Leaving the Catholic Church is a very big deal, because it is a willing participation in the protestant reformation and a rejection of the Catholic Church.

We are not protestants where it isn't a big deal which denomination you belong to. People who say it is an issue of money- as if we were some megachurch where they pastors are rich really need to take a look at the clergy. Priests and bishops don't make much money- and they aren't interested in it. It's about Christ and salvation.