Second Law of Thermodynamics - a creationist puzzle.

[Wiccan_Child]

Then again, why can't it be done in a laboratory --- under controlled conditions? Put the ingredients into a Bell Jar, subject the Bell Jar to the sun, and wait.

It does: review the theory of abiogenesis for the steps that occur. Since we've only been doing the experiment for a few decades, its amazing we've got the results we have. To get actual life (an exceedingly simple monocellular organism, say) requires much much longer.

Thus far, everything's going according to plan.

 

[Cabal]

Entropy anywhere in Genesis 1 would ruin God's creation --- Romans 8 makes it clear that because of entropy, God's creation "groans".

I'll say it again - and yet you rubbish theistic evolutionists for daring to interpret Genesis 1 nonliterally. So, you are inconsistent. Gotcha.

 

[rjw]

define evolve

As in theory of evolution. Mainstream theory - variation and selection of that variation bringing about novel morphologies, physiologies, behaviors etc.

 

[rjw]

Does a man synthesizing from dirt violate 2LoT?

Dunno. Don't care. This one's about ToE.


Regards, Roland

 

[rjw]

I could be wrong on this (what else is old?), but abiogenesis cannot occur in a universe that is winding down into a state of maximum entropy, due to the shear amount of energy that would be required to "kick start" life in the first place. Not to mention continually supplying that molecule with the exact amount of energy (no less, no more) and nurturing it and giving it viability. The Enthropic Principle contains a very fragile set of requirements that would, in my opinion, render abiogenesis impossible.

This thread is about evolution AV.

Nevertheless, in answer to your question, I gather that, in your earth, even a storm cannot occur - for exactly the same kinds of reason?



Regards, Roland

 

[rjw]

We know what it takes to create a star, but we can't create one in a lab. Why? It requires more time and materials than is available to us.
We know what makes earthquakes, what makes tornados. We can't make these in labs either.

I think I know what you are talking about Patashu, but am uncertain.

In the context of my thread starter, what are you trying to say - that like stars, earthquakes and tornadoes, life takes too much for us to organize. Yet just as these other things do not violate 2LoT by organizing themselves, neither does life and its organizing (evolution)?


Regards, Roland

 

[Patashu]

I think I know what you are talking about Patashu, but am uncertain.

In the context of my thread starter, what are you trying to say - that like stars, earthquakes and tornadoes, life takes too much for us to organize. Yet just as these other things do not violate 2LoT by organizing themselves, neither does life and its organizing (evolution)?


Regards, Roland

I'm saying to AV1611 that something can be real without being able to replicate it under lab conditions.

 

[MoonLancer]

Then again, why can't it be done in a laboratory --- under controlled conditions? Put the ingredients into a Bell Jar, subject the Bell Jar to the sun, and wait.

didn't you read my post? Scientists don't have the billions of years required to make life.

 

[atomweaver]

NM, already answered.

 

[atomweaver]

Entropy isn't something you "ingrain" --- it's just something you let "wind down".

If my memory serves me correctly, the formula for the 2nd Law is:

• ΔS[sub]universe[/sub]>0

But prior to the Fall, it was simply:

• ΔS[sub]universe[/sub]=0

Why wouldn't the pre-Fall entropy be negative? I mean, if you're just going to make carp up, it seems like you'd be covering your posterior better with a "<= 0". A negative entropy term would just give your Creator an easier time of it. There's no physical evidence to back your imaginings, so you might as well be as vague as possible...

Also, wouldn't non-positive universal entropy have physical implications for astronomical phenomenon? Hypothetically, if an apple snack some 4500-6000 years ago flipped a switch such that suddenly made &#916;S[sub]universe[/sub]>0, there should be a wealth of observable implications, from the abundance of nearby stars, the light of which is just now arriving to Earth from that timeframe... So where is it?

 

[Split Rock]

Then again, why can't it be done in a laboratory --- under controlled conditions? Put the ingredients into a Bell Jar, subject the Bell Jar to the sun, and wait.

Is the primitive earth a bell jar? How long will it take? What are the precise conditions required for each step of the process? What are all the ingredients? What catalysts are required? Is a bell jar too small compared to the earth? Are other forms of energy required (such as tidal action, lightning, etc)? Did life begin at the bottom of the ocean near thermal vents? Can we duplicate these thermal vents in a bell jar? If I open a jar of peanut butter, will I find life? Is the banana the ultimate atheist's nightmare?

 

[AV1611VET]

Is the primitive earth a bell jar? How long will it take? What are the precise conditions required for each step of the process? What are all the ingredients? What catalysts are required? Is a bell jar too small compared to the earth? Are other forms of energy required (such as tidal action, lightning, etc)? Did life begin at the bottom of the ocean near thermal vents? Can we duplicate these thermal vents in a bell jar? If I open a jar of peanut butter, will I find life? Is the banana the ultimate atheist's nightmare?

Fair enough --- I said it before, and I'll say it again: Evolution cannot occur in a universe that is governed by entropy --- (and I don't want to hear one word about the sun).

 

[gaara4158]

Fair enough --- I said it before, and I'll say it again: Evolution cannot occur in a universe that is governed by entropy --- (and I don't want to hear one word about the sun).

i've said this millions of times to you:

why?

 

[Skaloop]

Fair enough --- I said it before, and I'll say it again: Evolution cannot occur in a universe that is governed by entropy --- (and I don't want to hear one word about the sun).

Why not?

 

[AV1611VET]

Why not?

Post 4 please.

 

[Skaloop]

Post 4 please.

You have already been shown that you are wrong, exactly as you prophesied.

Are you saying that isolated pockets of the universe like, say Earth, cannot show decreases in entropy while contained within larger pockets like, say, our solar system that show an overall increase in entropy?

 

[DrunkenWrestler]

If my memory serves me correctly, the formula for the 2nd Law is:

• &#916;S[sub]universe[/sub]>0

But prior to the Fall, it was simply:

• &#916;S[sub]universe[/sub]=0

Haha. Do creationists really wonder why no one takes them seriously?

 

[atomweaver]

Post 4 please.

5 million horsepower per square mile, AVVET....

 

[CACTUSJACKmankin]

Fair enough --- I said it before, and I'll say it again: Evolution cannot occur in a universe that is governed by entropy --- (and I don't want to hear one word about the sun).

The energetics of life adheres to the 2nd law. Plants cannot use all of the energy they obtain from the sun, herbivores can only use 10% of the available energy in plants, and carnivores only get 10% of that, and so on.

 

[LewisWildermuth]

Fair enough --- I said it before, and I'll say it again: Evolution cannot occur in a universe that is governed by entropy --- (and I don't want to hear one word about the sun).

Sure, you can say it all you want, you can keep repeating it until you face the grave, but that will not make it any less of a lie.