Louisiana House Education Committee stacks the deck for its creationism bill.

[Belk]

Very important. Thats why it is so important.
What is taught to kids in school holds in their heads credibility.
Just placing creationism on a equal level will do the trick.
It will introduce kids to the true discussions of mankind on origins and sharpen them up and even interest some more percentages in the ways os science or false claims of science.
Anyways it is the will of the majority of Yanks to allow both sides.
It has been a legal attempt to silence the truth where it counts.

just like every other scientific idea that was meet with extreme skepticism! I'm sure everyone remembers the bitter battle Louis Pasteur had getting the Germ theory into the second grade classrooms so that all the children would be open to it right? It's a good thing we pay primary school teachers so much because there would be no scientific progress without them.

 

[Split Rock]

Free at last, free at last, thank the Lord Almighty free at last. Well a toe in the door for full liberty of enquiry and truth in origins.
This shows the great attrition of truth and will to end the censorship of the truth on origins.

The only "censorship" is in your head.

The founders of America never in their hearts thought that the origins of everything from God and genesis would be banned by misusing the constitution.
The separation concept/law used to only ban one party and not both.

There is only one religious "party" involved, so where do you get off referring to "both?"

you can say the bible is false but not teach its true.

No one is teaching the Bible is false. Lying for your God will not help you. As far as teaching about your religion, that is what churchs are for.

The great absurity of having schools off bounds to discussing the grestest concepts in mankind about origins except to say this is the truth and the other side is wrong is surely on its last breath.
TOE is on its last legs.

More wishful thinking. Creationists have been claiming evolution is "on its last legs" since On the Origin of Species was published.

Very important. Thats why it is so important.
What is taught to kids in school holds in their heads credibility.
Just placing creationism on a equal level will do the trick.

It will confuse them about what science is and what it is not. Since when is confusing students a good thing?

It will introduce kids to the true discussions of mankind on origins and sharpen them up and even interest some more percentages in the ways os science or false claims of science.

Well, I have to agree with you there... teaching about creationism will indeed help students learn about what false science looks like. I have no problem using creationism as an example of such... but that is not the intent of the ignorant politicians pushing this bill.

Anyways it is the will of the majority of Yanks to allow both sides.
It has been a legal attempt to silence the truth where it counts.

Well, if you are referring to creationism here, yes, I agree.

 

[Split Rock]

Here is an example of the ignorance that will lead the governer to sign the bill...

"I’d certainly want my kids to be exposed to the very best science. I don’t want them to be—I don’t want any facts or theories or explanations to be withheld from them because of political correctness. The way we’re going to have smart, intelligent kids is exposing them to the very best science and let them not only decide, but also let them contribute to that body of knowledge. That’s what makes the scientific process so exciting. You get to go there and find facts and data and test what’s come before you and challenge those theories."
-Governer Bobby Jindal

Problems?
1. Not teaching creationism has nothing to do with "political correctness." It has to do with the separation of church and state.
2. Creationism/ I.D. has no theory to explain the origin of species and is not science. Teaching it does not constitute teaching the "very best science."
3. It is absurd to think that high school students or junior high school students will be able to "contribute to that (scientific) body of knowledge" in a classroom. Classrooms at this level are for acquiring basic knowledge about the subject. They will not be carrying out experiments that will broaden our understanding of biology.
4. I.D. has not produced any new evidence to test any hypothesis that has been proposed by anyone.

 

[RobertByers]

So it's important because you'll get them at an age where they might know enough to recognise it's wrong?



But are there two sides? Surely if there were two sides, you wouldn't be forcing it on school children because they trust their teachers to give them the truth. Surely you'd be able to demonstrate it with research and facts. You'd have a case that stood up on its own rather than needing to make counterclaims against evolution (none of which I have ever seen stick).

It is the schools forcing on the kids that the bible is not true on origins.
We can't demonstrate facts and research for our side if we are banned.
If you are teaching origins then strive for the truth. Therefore give both sides a fair shake.

 

[ChordatesLegacy]

Rob Byers wrote:

It is the schools forcing on the kids that the bible is not true on origins.
We can't demonstrate facts and research for our side if we are banned.
If you are teaching origins then strive for the truth. Therefore give both sides a fair shake.

Science side

Theory of evolution

Religious side, just a few from Africa wikipedia Creation_myth


Bakuba
The Bakuba account of demiurge is as follows. Originally, the Earth was nothing but water and darkness. Mbombo, the white giant ruled over this chaos. One day, he felt a terrible pain in his stomach, and vomited the sun, the moon, and the stars. The sun shone fiercely and water steamed up in clouds. Gradually, the dry hills appeared. Mbombo vomited again, this time the trees came out of his stomach, and animals, and people, and many other things: the first woman, the leopard, the eagle, the anvil, monkey Fumu, the first man, the firmament, medicine, and lighting. Nchienge, the woman of the waters, lived in the East. She had a son, Woto, and a daughter, Labama. Woto was the first king of the Bakuba.[citation needed]
[edit] Maasai
The Maasai of Kenya in their creation narrative recount the origin of humanity to be fashioned by the Creator deity from a single tree or leg which split into three pieces. To the first father of the Maasai, he gave a stick. To the first father of the Kikuyu, he gave a hoe. To the first father of the Kamba, he gave a bow and arrow. Each son survived in the wild. The first father of the Maasai used his stick to herd animals. The first father of the Kikuyu used his hoe to cultivate the ground. The first father of the Kamba used his bow and arrow to hunt.
[edit] Mandinka
The traditional creation narrative of the Mandinka people of southern Mali begins with Mangala, a singular, powerful being who is perceived to be a round, energetic presence. Within Mangala existed four divisions, which were symbolic of, among many things, the four days of the week (time), the four elements (matter), and the four directions (space). Mangala also contained two sets of dual gendered twins. Mangala was tired of keeping all of this matter inside, so the god removed it and compiled it into a seed. The seed was his creation of the world. The seed however did not hold together well and blew up. Mangala was disappointed with this and destroyed the world he created.
Mangala did not lose hope; the creator began again, this time with two sets of twin seeds. Mangala planted the seeds in an egg shaped womb where they gestated. Mangala continued to put more sets of twin seeds in the womb until he had 8 sets of seeds. In the womb, the gestating seeds transformed themselves into fish. The fish is considered a symbol of fertility in the Mande world. This time, Mangala's creation was successful. This is important, because it illustrates the idea of dual gendered twinship, an idea that permeates Mande culture.
Mangala tried to maintain this perfect creation, but chaos crept in; one of the male twins became ambitious and tried to escape from the egg. This chaotic character is called Pemba. He is a trickster figure whose first trick was to steal a piece of the womb's placenta and throw it down. This action made the earth. Pemba then tried to refertilize what was left of the womb, committing incest against his mother, the womb.
Mangala decided to sacrifice Pemba's brother Farro to save what was left of his creation. He castrated him and then killed him in order to raise him from the dead. Mangala took what was left of the placenta and transformed it into the sun, thus associating Pemba with darkness and the night. Farro was transformed into a human being and was taught the language of creation by Mangala. Farro's knowledge of words is very powerful and the tool he used to defeat Pemba's mischief. Farro and his newly created twins came to Earth and got married (not to each other). This is the basis for the foundation of exogamy in Mande.
Next, a being named Sourakata arrived from the sky with the first sacred drum, hammer, and the sacrificed skull of Farro. Sourakata began to play on the drum and sang for the first rain to come. Sourakata is a magical being who can control nature, and he taught Farro and his followers.

If you are going to teach creationism myths as alternatives to science, then you must teach all creation myths, unless you can demonstrate you Christian myth is superior, which we all know not to be true.

Creation myths should never be taught in the science class room

 

[Cabal]

It is the schools forcing on the kids that the bible is not true on origins.

Or the parents forcing an untenable fundamentalist literalist attitude on their kids?

We can't demonstrate facts and research for our side

Fixed.

If you are teaching origins then strive for the truth. Therefore give both sides a fair shake.

Yes, and can you imagine the kind of thing this would unleash if the government gave in to this kind of religious nonsense and set this kind of precendent? With a precedent like that, every religion will want their creation story told in class, and no doubt this will lead to yet more frantic honking of "we're being persecuted" from the fundies.

 

[Naraoia]

It is the schools forcing on the kids that the bible is not true on origins.
We can't demonstrate facts and research for our side if we are banned.

Good grief. You aren't banned. You have great, and I presume, rich institutes that could support good research. The fact that we've not seen a single piece of good research come out of those institutes speaks volumes.

The only place you are banned from is where unevidenced pseudoscience and religion don't belong.

Creationism wouldn't be the first idea that turns the prevailing scientific view on its head. (What was that theory about changing species that did the same in its time?). If it actually had merit you'd think it would've succeeded after having tried for centuries.

If you are teaching origins then strive for the truth.

I fully agree.

Therefore give both sides a fair shake.

I don't think you want a "fair shake" on YEC. It might not do your side as much good as you wish.

 

[Danyc]

It is the schools forcing on the kids that the bible is not true on origins.
We can't demonstrate facts and research for our side if we are banned.
If you are teaching origins then strive for the truth. Therefore give both sides a fair shake.

Summarization:

Give Christianity a fair shake....but don't give any other religions equal opportunity. Only Chrsitianity.



Waitwait, hold the phone.

Byers, if you teach creationism in school, you have to teach all religions. That's called special pleading.

If creationism gets in school, they all get in school. Its all religions or no religions. Answer this.

 

[Washington]

No surprise: GOVERNOR SIGNS BILL​

Gov. Bobby Jindal attracted national attention and strongly worded advice about how he should deal with the Louisiana Science Education Act.

Jindal ignored those calling for a veto and this week signed the law that will allow local school boards to approve supplemental materials for public school science classes as they discuss evolution, cloning and global warming.

The state Board of Elementary and Secondary Education will have the power to prohibit materials, though the bill does not spell out how state officials should go about policing local instructional practices.
source
​

 

[Split Rock]

It is the schools forcing on the kids that the bible is not true on origins.

Schools don't teach anything about the Bible. It is not their fault that your interpretation of scripture is so out of sink with reality.

We can't demonstrate facts and research for our side if we are banned.

Teaching religion is for Churches, not schools. You are not banned. As far as "research" (ha, ha) that is supposed to be what the Discovery Institute and Institute for Creation Research as for. Why do they spend so much money and effort on politics instead?

If you are teaching origins then strive for the truth. Therefore give both sides a fair shake.

There are no "both sides" here. There is one scientific theory and that is evolution. As others have mentioned, there are many creation stories from many different religions. Non of them are scientific, including yours. Stop the Special Pleading.

 

[Split Rock]

Summarization:

Give Christianity a fair shake....but don't give any other religions equal opportunity. Only Chrsitianity.



Waitwait, hold the phone.

Byers, if you teach creationism in school, you have to teach all religions. That's called special pleading.

If creationism gets in school, they all get in school. Its all religions or no religions. Answer this.

Actually, he has answered this question in the past. Teach "both," or do not teach either. His distorted argument is that you cannot teach anything that shows his religion is wrong, unless you also teach his religion his right too. Otherwise, you cannot teach either.

 

[Split Rock]

No surprise: GOVERNOR SIGNS BILL​

Gov. Bobby Jindal attracted national attention and strongly worded advice about how he should deal with the Louisiana Science Education Act.

Jindal ignored those calling for a veto and this week signed the law that will allow local school boards to approve supplemental materials for public school science classes as they discuss evolution, cloning and global warming.

The state Board of Elementary and Secondary Education will have the power to prohibit materials, though the bill does not spell out how state officials should go about policing local instructional practices.
source
​

Fine. Let his state get sued in court. Its not like Louisiana doesn't have plenty of money and resources that they cannot waste them on this idiocy... oh wait... they don't.

 

[Psudopod]

It is the schools forcing on the kids that the bible is not true on origins.

Evidence on this please. The schools are teaching that the evidence shows the bible is not literal, because that's the truth. You can't blame the schools if God's creation goes against your interpretation. Close the book and go out to look at the real thing.

We can't demonstrate facts and research for our side if we are banned.

Evidence of creationists being banned from doing research please. Besides, we were talking about why it was important to get this in schools. I'd love it if creationists were to go and do some real science.

If you are teaching origins then strive for the truth. Therefore give both sides a fair shake.

We are are striving for truth. You just don't like that truth. There is only sciece and psuedo-science in the crevo debate.

 

[TheManeki]

Looks like it passed. Ars Technica has a writeup of it.

Here's a PDF of the full text of the act.

 

[Vene]

*goes to add Louisiana on the list of states to avoid* Oh wait, it's already there.