My Apple Challenge IV

[AV1611VET]

A sequence of events is not the same as Standard Rules. Unless you know how God creates ex nihilo, you can hardly claim to understand the rules.

You know just as much as I do --- God spoke, and it was done.

My Latin's rather rusty, but shouldn't that be creatio per magicum?

Thank you --- I figured there was an appropriate expression for it.

You are talking about using magic or miracle to create out of nothing, not making things out of a lump of magic.

Believe me --- I know nothing of Latin. I've never been to South America.

However the difference between magic and miracle, assuming neither are slight of hand, is whether the supernatural power used is authorised and approved or not.

I'll go with that explanation. I'll also add that, to do a miracle requires a much higher form of power - (omnipotence) - than magic.

Remember, Pharaoh's magicians matched what Moses did task-by-task, until they were literally left in the dust:

16 ¶ And the LORD said unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Stretch out thy rod, and smite the dust of the land, that it may become lice throughout all the land of Egypt.

17 And they did so; for Aaron stretched out his hand with his rod, and smote the dust of the earth, and it became lice in man, and in beast; all the dust of the land became lice throughout all the land of Egypt.

18 And the magicians did so with their enchantments to bring forth lice, but they could not: so there were lice upon man, and upon beast.

19 Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This is the finger of God: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

As you are not God and as far as I know don't have the authority to create apples ex nihilo, wouldn't any apples you propose to create be created by magic?

Let's not make this hypothetical any harder than it is.

Gen 1:23 And there was evening and there was morning, the fifth day. 24 And God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures...

Gen 2:19 So out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens...

Doesn't sound very ex nihilo to me. God is using stuff he made earlier.

Let's stick to Genesis 1, shall we?

But even with that --- yes --- that phase of man's creation was creatio ex materia --- but it is still referred to as "creation."

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Created x 3 --- do you get the idea God is hammering a point home here?

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Created x 3 --- do you get the idea God is hammering a point home here?

No. I get the feeling that the Hebrew Priests who recorded what would become the Old Testament were hammering a point home.

 

[Nathan Poe]

You know just as much as I do --- God spoke, and it was done.

You refuse to study anything outside the Bible -- so it's safe to say that most of us know a lot more than you do.

Thank you --- I figured there was an appropriate expression for it.

Besides non compos mentis? I'm finding that phrase to be especially useful in dealing with the excessively devout.

Believe me --- I know nothing of Latin. I've never been to South America.

Clearly, you know nothing of humor, either.

I'll go with that explanation. I'll also add that, to do a miracle requires a much higher form of power - (omnipotence) - than magic.


Remember, Pharaoh's magicians matched what Moses did task-by-task, until they were literally left in the dust:

So the only difference is one of scale?

Let's not make this hypothetical any harder than it is.

A hypotheitical with no connection to reality is a pointless exercise.

Let's stick to Genesis 1, shall we?

Genesis 1 can take a hike. It's not even particularly imaginative creation mythology.

But even with that --- yes --- that phase of man's creation was creatio ex materia --- but it is still referred to as "creation."



Created x 3 --- do you get the idea God is hammering a point home here?

Desperately -- very unbecoming for a God.

 

[MasterOfKrikkit]

The question stands as I wrote it; and any answer other than what Cabal wrote means no extra credit for you.

Oh Noes! I will not get extra credit in a course I'm not enrolled in for which I've received no regular credit and don't care about anyway! How tragic.

Anyway, I've already agreed with Cabal, more than once, so I assume I do get the extra credit. w00t. But are you now going to take it away again because I'm asking how that answer is of any use? Because it's not of any use. Given the setup of the question, there is no actual way for us to determine the increase of mass-energy (the only correct answer, remember). So the one true answer is pointless. So the question is pointless.

HOWEVER, I would be very much inclined to cut you some slack if you leave the classroom knowing the difference between creatio ex magic and creatio ex nihilo.

And I would be very much inclined to cut you some slack if you knew how to structure a lesson to achieve your desired learning objective. Or, alternatively, if you'd stop thinking of yourself as a teacher, when you have no idea how to be one. (I'll leave the problem with the definition of "magic", since others have dealt with that.)

As someone who actually works in the classroom, I must say it's very presumptuous for you to allude to yourself as a teacher without having anything worthwhile to teach.

Seconded, thirded, pithed, ethed, and ithed. Then QFT as well.

So this hypothetical event, the likes of which have never been observed, could only be validated by a technique that might well be impossible to perform.

Is that it, AV?

Sounds about right to me. But obviously that's just because we're all too stupid to mind-read what AV wants us to say.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Oh Noes! I will not get extra credit in a course I'm not enrolled in for which I've received no regular credit and don't care about anyway! How tragic.

From an uncertified teacher with no qualifications whatsoever! The tragedy increases.

 

[Greeble]

Believe me --- I know nothing of Latin. I've never been to South America.

An anti - Bush joke in Crevo?

 

[MasterOfKrikkit]

An anti - Bush joke in Crevo?

I thought that one was (supposedly) Dan Quayle.

From an uncertified teacher with no qualifications whatsoever! The tragedy increases.

Hah! Good point.

 

[Assyrian]

You know just as much as I do --- God spoke, and it was done.

So you don't know how God actually did it. That is a bit of a problem for your hypothetical example.

I'll go with that explanation. I'll also add that, to do a miracle requires a much higher form of power - (omnipotence) - than magic.

When we read in Luke 1 that the angel struck Zechariah dumb, was that magic or is Gabriel omnipotent?

Remember, Pharaoh's magicians matched what Moses did task-by-task, until they were literally left in the dust:

I am sure Gabriel could have taken out Pharaoh's magicians but he is still not omnipotent.

Let's not make this hypothetical any harder than it is.

Why would you think ex nihilo creation was easy, even hypothetically?

Let's stick to Genesis 1, shall we?

But even with that --- yes --- that phase of man's creation was creatio ex materia --- but it is still referred to as "creation."

Created x 3 --- do you get the idea God is hammering a point home here?

Yup it says created, just not created ex nihilo created. And unless you think Gen 2 refers to completely different people, creation does not have to mean ex nihilo. This is a mistake creationists keep making, they don't understand the range of meaning of the Hebrew word create. Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith who blows the fire of coals and produces a weapon for its purpose. Do you think the blacksmith suddenly popped into existence, or did God us a mummy and daddy to make him? No we can't just stick to Gen 1 and ignore the rest of scripture. Psalm 102:18 Let this be recorded for a generation to come, so that a people yet to be created may praise the LORD. Ex nihilo?

 

[Greeble]

I thought that one was (supposedly) Dan Quayle.

OOPS!

Well, it was a blast from the past, anyway.

 

[ReverendDG]

I'll go with that explanation. I'll also add that, to do a miracle requires a much higher form of power - (omnipotence) - than magic.

whats the difference really other than magic is also used to denote slight of hand?
i think most people mean magic, like in fantasy, magic could be from gods

Remember, Pharaoh's magicians matched what Moses did task-by-task, until they were literally left in the dust:

yes their power came from their gods just like moses, don't forget that the authors of the bible believed there are other gods.
why have the first commandment if there aren't any other gods?

Let's not make this hypothetical any harder than it is.

lets try something less meaningless then

Let's stick to Genesis 1, shall we?

why?

But even with that --- yes --- that phase of man's creation was creatio ex materia --- but it is still referred to as "creation."

seriously get over this, the hebrew authors believed, just like everyone else, that everything came from chaos, chaos was just stuff. god went and carved order from chaos.

Created x 3 --- do you get the idea God is hammering a point home here?

i think everyone can understand the words just fine, god created everything according to the authors of genesis, not really a shocker.
by the way the idea that god created everything from nothing would be alien to the people that the book was written to. the idea that you believe genesis 1 is talking about creation from nothing is absurd, when the text says god separated land from the waters.

but of course what am i talking about you use the KJV . which if you read the language the kjv is originally translated from, says the kjv is wrong, but you don't care in all your stubborn glory

 

[AV1611VET]

...don't forget that the authors of the bible believed there are other gods.

No, they didn't ---

• 2Kings 19:18 And have cast their gods into the fire: for they were no gods, but the work of men's hands, wood and stone: therefore they have destroyed them.
• 2Chronicles 13:9 Have ye not cast out the priests of the LORD, the sons of Aaron, and the Levites, and have made you priests after the manner of the nations of other lands? so that whosoever cometh to consecrate himself with a young bullock and seven rams, the same may be a priest of them that are no gods.
• Isaiah 37:19 And have cast their gods into the fire: for they were no gods, but the work of men's hands, wood and stone: therefore they have destroyed them.
• Jeremiah 2:11 Hath a nation changed their gods, which are yet no gods? but my people have changed their glory for that which doth not profit.
• Jeremiah 5:7 How shall I pardon thee for this? thy children have forsaken me, and sworn by them that are no gods: when I had fed them to the full, they then committed adultery, and assembled themselves by troops in the harlots' houses.
• Jeremiah 16:20 Shall a man make gods unto himself, and they are no gods?
• Acts 19:26 Moreover ye see and hear, that not alone at Ephesus, but almost throughout all Asia, this Paul hath persuaded and turned away much people, saying that they be no gods, which are made with hands:
• Galatians 4:8 ¶ Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.

 

[Herman Hedning]

No, they didn't ---

Yes, they did...

• Exodus 18:11 Now I know that the LORD is greater than all other gods, for he did this to those who had treated Israel arrogantly.
• Exodus 23:13 Be careful to do everything I have said to you. Do not invoke the names of other gods; do not let them be heard on your lips.
• Deuteronomy 5:7 You shall have no other gods before me.
• Deuteronomy 6:14 Do not follow other gods, the gods of the peoples around you.
• Deuteronomy 29:26 They went off and worshiped other gods and bowed down to them, gods they did not know, gods he had not given them.
• Judges 10:13 But you have forsaken me and served other gods, so I will no longer save you.
• 1 Kings 11:4 As Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods, and his heart was not fully devoted to the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father had been.
• 2 Kings 17:38 Do not forget the covenant I have made with you, and do not worship other gods.
• 2 Chronicles 2:5 The temple I am going to build will be great, because our God is greater than all other gods.

See, I too can do a word search.

 

[AV1611VET]

Yes, they did...

• Exodus 18:11 Now I know that the LORD is greater than all other gods, for he did this to those who had treated Israel arrogantly.
• Exodus 23:13 Be careful to do everything I have said to you. Do not invoke the names of other gods; do not let them be heard on your lips.
• Deuteronomy 5:7 You shall have no other gods before me.
• Deuteronomy 6:14 Do not follow other gods, the gods of the peoples around you.
• Deuteronomy 29:26 They went off and worshiped other gods and bowed down to them, gods they did not know, gods he had not given them.
• Judges 10:13 But you have forsaken me and served other gods, so I will no longer save you.
• 1 Kings 11:4 As Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods, and his heart was not fully devoted to the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father had been.
• 2 Kings 17:38 Do not forget the covenant I have made with you, and do not worship other gods.
• 2 Chronicles 2:5 The temple I am going to build will be great, because our God is greater than all other gods.

See, I too can do a word search.

Unfortunately, to you, that's all it is --- a word search.

But to me --- it's a point:

• Pssst --- hey! Want Me to let you in on something? They aren't real!

 

[milkyway]

Yes, they did...

• Exodus 18:11 Now I know that the LORD is greater than all other gods, for he did this to those who had treated Israel arrogantly.
• Exodus 23:13 Be careful to do everything I have said to you. Do not invoke the names of other gods; do not let them be heard on your lips.
• Deuteronomy 5:7 You shall have no other gods before me.
• Deuteronomy 6:14 Do not follow other gods, the gods of the peoples around you.
• Deuteronomy 29:26 They went off and worshiped other gods and bowed down to them, gods they did not know, gods he had not given them.
• Judges 10:13 But you have forsaken me and served other gods, so I will no longer save you.
• 1 Kings 11:4 As Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods, and his heart was not fully devoted to the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father had been.
• 2 Kings 17:38 Do not forget the covenant I have made with you, and do not worship other gods.
• 2 Chronicles 2:5 The temple I am going to build will be great, because our God is greater than all other gods.

See, I too can do a word search.

You have to admit the Bible is scrupulously fair - you can use it to support just about ANY religious opinion!

 

[milkyway]

• Pssst --- hey! Want Me to let you in on something? They aren't real!

I agree -all these "gods" are pure fiction, utter nonsense.

Now just go one more god and you can set your mind free

 

[AV1611VET]

You have to admit the Bible is scrupulously fair - you can use it to support just about ANY religious opinion!

Ya --- Muhammad tried that with the Bible too --- and it didn't work.

He taught that God had a threefold plan of redemption for all of mankind:

• Step One = Moses = convert humanity to Judaism.
• Step Two = Jesus = convert Jews to Christianity.
• Step Three = Muhammad himself = convert Christians to Islam.

Only when it came to implementing Step Three, those who knew their Bibles [correctly] accused him of being a false prophet instead.

This infuriated him, and the man who once embraced Christianity now became one of its biggest adversaries.

Why do you think they call us the Great Satan today?

And, btw, do you know who the Lesser Satan is?

 

[AV1611VET]

Now just go one more god and you can set your mind free

LSD?

 

[milkyway]

Ya --- Muhammad tried that with the Bible too --- and it didn't work.

He taught that God had a threefold plan of redemption for all of mankind:

• Step One = Moses = convert humanity to Judaism.
• Step Two = Jesus = convert Jews to Christianity.
• Step Three = Muhammad himself = convert Christians to Islam.

Only when it came to implementing Step Three, those who knew their Bibles [correctly] accused him of being a false prophet instead.

This infuriated him, and the man who once embraced Christianity now became one of its biggest adversaries.

Why do you think they call us the Great Satan today?

And, btw, do you know who the Lesser Satan is?

Umm...Harry Potter?

 

[milkyway]

LSD?

Certainly not!
Take a drug like that and you'll start having visions of mythical beings and delusions of supernatural encounters.

Ah...too late...

 

[Herman Hedning]

Unfortunately, to you, that's all it is --- a word search.

But to me --- it's a point:

Pssst --- hey! Want Me to let you in on something? They aren't real!

Uh huh. Point you say... Maybe they (the other gods) were real to the people worshipping them. Just as your god seem real to you. Who can tell?