The Bible calls homosexual activity wrong, but . . .

True_Blue

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I've been in a monogamous lesbian relationship for over three years. I have every intention of growing old and enjoying many a holiday with her. We are not consumed with or addicted to sex. And neither of us have gay bowel syndrome.

Beechy, your profile says your a Christian, and a Methodist. Are those mere labels, or do you seek to apply God's word to your own life? To grow closer to God, we have to be continually breaking down barriers that separate us from him. Once one barrier is overcome, the Holy Spirit reveals additional inadequacies. The Christian journey is all about continually pealing away layers of scaly skin so that we more and more resemble Christ.

Your lesbianism is a scaly layer that must be removed:
Romans 1: "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones."
Ephesians 4:30: "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."
You cannot walk in the Holy Spirit and please God while you remain a practicing lesbian.
It's one thing to be addicted to a sin and be unable to break free. It's another thing to tell God, "I'm going to do this anyway, no matter what the Bible says." If you do the latter, you can loose your salvation, even as a Christian.
Hebrews 6:4-6: "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, becauseto their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."
A Christian who loses his or her salvation is in a far worse place than a person who never was saved to begin with. God holds Christians to a far higher standard than non-believers.
Luke 12:47: "That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows."
You may have a number of reasons for having lesbian relationship, but there much better reasons to end the relationship. There are better ways to express love for others, and there are better ways to enjoy sexual intimacy. I want you to have a better life than your status quo.
 
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beechy

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Homosexuality goes against the nature of man as ordained by God; evidence of this is the preference of men to be with women and vice versa that is prevalent.
Does that mean God has ordained the nature of man is to overeat, since the majority of Americans are overweight?

More evidence is the fact that homosexual sex can cause damage to men (and to that extent anal sex amongst married people is also a sinful activity).

It abuses the body, so to speak.

It goes against the natural will...
So if an activity "can cause damage" that's evidence that it is sinful? Like rock climbing? Or football?

And more than that: Christians are not supposed to engage in excessive amounts of any pleasure. This includes everything from gluttony towards food to luxury to sex itself being taken to too far of levels.

The reason why the 'missionary' position was recommended by religious institutions as the proper way was to minimize the role of sex in one's life and not turn it into a sort of sport that began dominating your Earthly life.
What makes you think that my relationship with my monogamous same sex partner involves any more sex than that of the average heterosexual couples?

Christians believe in a sense becoming dead to the world and alive in Christ, doing a sort of penance and bringing themselves closer to God by forsaking pleasures.

Aesthetic practices used to be inherent to most Christians but now they have fallen to the wayside, sadly.

Ideally people only have sex for procreation though 1 Corinthians 7 allows it also to ward off sin and temptation thereof. However, being that homosexuality is naturally a sin that cannot be used as an excuse for practice of even a monogamous homosexual relationship.
What does it mean for something to "naturally" be a sin? Is there also an "artificial" sin?

And some people may be born with the desire to have sex with animals. So what makes it entirely different? OH yeah, I recognize one is more disgusting than the other but they are both deviations of the sexual desires. As is pedophilia.
Animals and children can't consent. But, frankly, I don't care if you want to have sex with your dog.

The harm from homosexuality is on a larger social level.

First, it dishonors the person and the family.
Please explain ...

Second, it pushes the lines of moral behavior back.
I don't understand what you mean by this either ...


Thirdly, it is irrelevant if the sin does not harm others if it does harm yourself. A person can be a drunk their whole life and never, ever hurt anybody. However, they have still have damaged their spiritual life by beign chemically dependent and also have not honored their parents.

It is irrelevant...
My lesbian relationship doesn't harm anybody else, and it doesn't harm me either. And didn't you say earlier in this post that your claim that homosexual sex "can cause damage to men" is evidence that it is a sin?

Morality is not measured by what hurts and does not hurt others -- that is rather a measure of a legal code. Even though it is legal to hurt other people's feelings it does not make it morally right.
Morality is a measure of a legal code ... Moral = Complies with legal code ... So what should be the basis for this legal code which morality is a measure of? The Bible? Do you think America should be a theocracy?

It is abuse of the design that God has of the world, it si a deviation thereof. It is abuse of your own temple primarily and it does bring dishonor to the family and weakens the morals of the greater community.
No it doesn't.

And in Christian morality, sex is for procreation primarily and warding off of sexual impurity. Sex should never be the focus of a relationship
What makes you think sex is the focus of my relationship?

I think they definitely could create a family that is loving but it is not natural to me, and in that sense there is a malfunction.
Why should it matter to me if my family is natural to you?
 
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beechy

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Beechy, your profile says your a Christian, and a Methodist. Are those mere labels, or do you seek to apply God's word to your own life? To grow closer to God, we have to be continually breaking down barriers that separate us from him. Once one barrier is overcome, the Holy Spirit reveals additional inadequacies. The Christian journey is all about continually pealing away layers of scaly skin so that we more and more resemble Christ.

Your lesbianism is a scaly layer that must be removed:
Romans 1: "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones."
Ephesians 4:30: "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."
You cannot walk in the Holy Spirit and please God while you remain a practicing lesbian.
It's one thing to be addicted to a sin and be unable to break free. It's another thing to tell God, "I'm going to do this anyway, no matter what the Bible says." If you do the latter, you can loose your salvation, even as a Christian.
Hebrews 6:4-6: "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, becauseto their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."
A Christian who loses his or her salvation is in a far worse place than a person who never was saved to begin with. God holds Christians to a far higher standard than non-believers.
Luke 12:47: "That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows."
You may have a number of reasons for having lesbian relationship, but I there much better reasons to end the relationship. There are better ways to express love for others, and there are better ways to enjoy sexual intimacy. I want you to have a better life than your status quo.
Not all Methodists have the same beliefs about homosexuality that you do. And I'm happy with my status quo.

You characterize homosexuality as an evil sexual addiction, evidenced by the anatomy of the colon, gay bowel disease, and claims about the promiscuous "homosexual lifestyle". But none of those things has any application to my life.
 
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FaithLikeARock

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Washington, you actually have it backwards--a person's thoughts and intents are what makes something good or evil, not the physicality of touching. If I kiss my daughter with the intent to express love and affection for her, I have not sinned. If I kiss my daughter for the purpose of sexual arousal or to gratify a prurient sexual interest, I've sinned. The act of the kiss itself is neutral with regards to good or evil.

When it comes to sex, the only healthy and moral form of sex is that between a man and a woman who are married to each other. All other forms of sex are evil. When a person engages in an evil form of sex, the evil aspect of that form of sex becomes exciting and sexually stimulating. A person who has sex with a stranger will find the fact that the person is a stranger very exciting and will often try to pursue the experience again. If that person gets married, they will not be having sex with a stranger anymore, so sex with that person's spouse will not be as erotic and exciting as it should be. So the married person will desire sex outside the marital context, which may lead to extramarital affairs, causing the destruction of the marriage.

If a person finds themselves attracted to the same sex, the worst thing they can do is to gratify that passion, just as a person who has sex with a person not their wife has made a serious error in judgment. Basically, we have two dogs in the kennel--a nice dog and a vicious dog. If you're constantly feeding the vicious dog, the dog will only get bigger and more vicious. Eventually the dog will overpower you and kill you. You gotta stop feeding the vicious, addictive dog.

Homosexuality is nothing more than an addition, just as cigarettes or drugs. People also get addicted to sex with strangers, sex with children, sex with animals, inappropriate contentography of various kinds, etc. We all have different proclivities to certain types of addictions. Some people can take pain killers at hospitals and go home without getting addicted. Others will find themselves consumed with the desire to continue using the painkillers and sacrifice all their money and their entire lives to get their next fix. Some people never get the desire to have sex with people of the same gender, some do. If we have a desire to engage in an unhealthy addiction, it's never healthy to feed that addiction. Feeding the addiction only makes it worse. All addictions separate us spiritually from God. I myself am actively fighting certain addictions.

Homosexuality is one of the worst addictions. It goes without saying a person's bowels are not designed to accommodate the insertion of external objects. As a practical matter, it's a very unhealthy and ultimately unpleasant form of intercourse. http://www.conservapedia.com/Gay_Bowel_Syndrome#_note-93 A person who is consumed with homosexual sex will be less likely to be married and have children, which I have found to be very satisfying and fulfilling. Many people find it very sad to be over the age of 50 and still not have a family. It makes life, especially around the holidays, very lonely. Homosexuality ultimately causes death. In San Francisco, homosexuals acquire AIDS at a rate of 2.2% per year. By multiplying 2.2% by the number of years a person engages in gay sex, you can get a rough idea of how long it takes that person to get AIDS.

I mentioned that homosexuality is an addiction--it causes sexual desire to boil over and become extremely difficult to control. You can read about homosexual lifestyles here: http://theroadtoemmaus.org/RdLb/22SxSo/PnSx/HSx/MarrHoVsHet.htm
"In their study of the sexual profiles of 2,583 older homosexuals published in the Journal of Sex Research, Paul Van de Ven et al. found that "the modal range for number of sexual partners ever [of homosexuals] was 101-500." In addition, 10.2 percent to 15.7 percent had between 501 and 1,000 partners. A further 10.2 percent to 15.7 percent reported having had more than one thousand lifetime sexual partners."

The result is that homosexuals become epidemiological locus points for disease transmission. If most people have only a few sexual partners, a sexually transmitted disease will peter out. It only takes a relatively few people with a vast number of sexual partners to become an engine for the transmission of diseases through a population. This makes homosexuality a matter of public policy. It's not simply a private matter if people can't control their sexual urges. That's why the Bible bans homosexual intercourse.

That said, God loves homosexuals as much as everyone else. All sins are equivalent in God's eyes--addiction to caffeine and addiction to homosexuality are equivalent in God's eyes, though their practical consequences are considerably different. If a person is willing, God can and will save them from their homosexual desires.

In order to assume ANY of that, you have to assume that homosexuals are incapable of actually loving their partner and are simply in it for the gratification. Which is simply not true. There are homosexuals who vow to remain pure until they're married/unified/whatever they call it just like there are heterosexuals. Now why would someone who is only in it for the gratification make a vow like that?
 
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LightHorseman

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So if an activity "can cause damage" that's evidence that it is sinful? Like rock climbing? Or football?
My lesbian friend loves to remind me that lesbian sex is far less likely to result in injury or illness than heterosexual sex
 
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FaithLikeARock

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Beechy, your profile says your a Christian, and a Methodist. Are those mere labels, or do you seek to apply God's word to your own life? To grow closer to God, we have to be continually breaking down barriers that separate us from him. Once one barrier is overcome, the Holy Spirit reveals additional inadequacies. The Christian journey is all about continually pealing away layers of scaly skin so that we more and more resemble Christ.

Your lesbianism is a scaly layer that must be removed:
Romans 1: "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones."
Ephesians 4:30: "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."
You cannot walk in the Holy Spirit and please God while you remain a practicing lesbian.
It's one thing to be addicted to a sin and be unable to break free. It's another thing to tell God, "I'm going to do this anyway, no matter what the Bible says." If you do the latter, you can loose your salvation, even as a Christian.
Hebrews 6:4-6: "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, becauseto their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."
A Christian who loses his or her salvation is in a far worse place than a person who never was saved to begin with. God holds Christians to a far higher standard than non-believers.
Luke 12:47: "That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows."
You may have a number of reasons for having lesbian relationship, but I there much better reasons to end the relationship. There are better ways to express love for others, and there are better ways to enjoy sexual intimacy. I want you to have a better life than your status quo.


Didn't you just say that it isn't what we do but the initiative behind it?

You just completely contradicted yourself. You went from saying basically "if you aren't having sex simply to please yourself then you're okay" to telling a person who has quite possibly never had sex or anything similar with her partner and obviously has a very tame and loving relationship that her partner and orientation is an obstacle.

It sounds like you're making excuses to cover up the fact that when put in the same situation as we expect heterosexuality to be in, there is nothing wrong with homosexuality.
 
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LightHorseman

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Didn't you just say that it isn't what we do but the initiative behind it?

You just completely contradicted yourself. You went from saying basically "if you aren't having sex simply to please yourself then you're okay" to telling a person who has quite possibly never had sex or anything similar with her partner and obviously has a very tame and loving relationship that her partner and orientation is an obstacle.

It sounds like you're making excuses to cover up the fact that when put in the same situation as we expect heterosexuality to be in, there is nothing wrong with homosexuality.
QFT.

Thing you gotta realise here is that a great deal of the condemnation of homosexuality is emotional, not logical, so a great deal of the "arguing" that goes on is an attempt to explain why the anti-homosexual position is taken AFTER the fact.

(psych.) - Defense mechanism. Justification: creating elaborate explanations for one’s own behaviour which only appear logical to oneself. Allows a person to escape anxiety over their actions, yet continue with the behaviour.
www.reasoned.org/glossary.htm
 
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beechy

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So the Biblical law does not prohibit homosexual thoughts (the mens rea) even though such thoughts are sinful. The Biblical law only prohibits the combination of the mens rea and the actus reus--[the intent and action] of lying with a man as one lies with a woman.
Are you sure you're right about that?
27"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." (Matthew 5:27-28). It doesn't make sense for something to be a "permissible" (i.e., "not prohibited") sin, does it? Now whether homosexuality is a sin at all is another question altogether ...
 
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LightHorseman

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Are you sure you're right about that?
27"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." (Matthew 5:27-28). It doesn't make sense for something to be a "permissible" (i.e., "not prohibited") sin, does it? Now whether homosexuality is a sin at all is another question altogether ...
*wince* I believe that Matthew 5:28 is telling us to be careful of our thoughts, because they can lead to actions, it isn't saying that the thoughts themselves are sinful... I mean, otherwise you spend all your life second guessing yourself about having sinful thoughts... was that thought sinful? Was that one? How can you stop yourself even thinking such things? I mean, you have to have the thought in the first place before you can decide whether it was sinful or not, and by then its to late
 
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beechy

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*wince* I believe that Matthew 5:28 is telling us to be careful of our thoughts, because they can lead to actions, it isn't saying that the thoughts themselves are sinful... I mean, otherwise you spend all your life second guessing yourself about having sinful thoughts... was that thought sinful? Was that one? How can you stop yourself even thinking such things? I mean, you have to have the thought in the first place before you can decide whether it was sinful or not, and by then its to late
1 Peter 2:1 says to lay aside (among other things) "envy". Proverbs 14:30 says that "A heart of peace gives life to the body, but envy rots the bones" Action or thought?
 
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Washington

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jmverville said:
Washington said:
No such harm results from homosexual contact. If the Bible truly does explain this harm I must have missed it, and would appreciate it if you pointed out the text.
The harm from homosexuality is on a larger social level.
First, it dishonors the person and the family.
Second, it pushes the lines of moral behavior back. This seems entirely irrelevant in modern society as we know it but discipline and adherence to local culture and laws was a form of strength and still is. Communities that did not tolerate decadence, indulgence and immorality were communities that were closer and healthier, more prepared for the challenges of the day. People really were 'warriors' in every sense of the word back then.
When the society becomes morally disjointed it is no longer united and can become subject to its neighbors. Do you see what I am saying?
Well I can certainly see what you're not saying---an answer to my request---where in the Bible the harm of homosexuality is explained. And your failure to back up this claim actually says a lot more about you're lack veracity then it does for your claim for the Bible. Bad move, jmverville.

As for the so-called harm it does as a dishonorment to the person, perhaps you will explain why one would purposely do something to themselves that creates more harm than good (assuming they're not a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]). This would be contrary to the nature of the human psyche---which strives to preserve its integrity and sense of well being. So to purposely do something that is not in one's interest---preferring the harm of dishonor over the good of emotional sacrifice--- smacks of idiocy. So I rather doubt such a dishonor actually exists, and is more likely another "explained in the Bible" claim of yours.

As for dishonoring one's family, this would be the thinking of an immature sycophant. Adults don't adjust major personality characteristics so as to simply assure the "honor" of their family---whatever the heck that is. I suspect they would do so for much more meaningful reasons.


Second, it pushes the lines of moral behavior back. This seems entirely irrelevant in modern society as we know it but discipline and adherence to local culture and laws was a form of strength and still is.
So I assume you feel all cultures are equally deserving of respect. I ask you to consider the Nazi culture, or perhaps the early American culture that looked favorably on slavery. Blanket statements like the kind you've made here are unthinking pap that don't deserve the credit you give them.



When the society becomes morally disjointed it is no longer united and can become subject to its neighbors.
True, but so what? Is the acceptance of homosexual behavior so difficult and divisive that it would open up a society to whatever untoward acts its neighbors may like to inflict? I hardly think so. And I also think your Henny Penny "the sky is falling" notion of homosexual acceptance smacks of uncritical reactionary histrionics.

Of course this has taken us way off course as to why the Bible would claim homosexual acts are worthy of execution, when it offers no evidence of harm. So, to that end, don't expect any further responses to claims based on personal or cultural morality, or some perceived harm.
 
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LightHorseman

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1 Peter 2:1 says to lay aside (among other things) "envy". Proverbs 14:30 says that "A heart of peace gives life to the body, but envy rots the bones" Action or thought?
touche :) But surely envy is an action AS WELL as a thought? Looking at someone elses stuff, thinking to yourself "hey, thats nice, I wish I had a ..." is, surely, OK... it becomes harmful when one obsesses about it day and night, "man, I just HAVE to have a ..., I can't sleep without one, how am I going to get one, what can I sacrifice to make getting a ... even easier" and so on, does thatr make sense?
 
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IamRedeemed

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Actually, lusting after another person is sin we have committed in our hearts already
according to Jesus and does not require an actual physical encounter for us to stand guilty
before God.


does this really make any sense? Exactly what is harmful about two people having mutually agreed upon physical contact? The Bible gives no good reason, but simply says in effect: it's not right.




Leviticus 18:22
“ Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; it is an abomination."​
and Leviticus 20:13
“ If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."​
Pretty harsh punishment for acts that may otherwise be encouraged and celebrated. And harsh punishment for no reason other than one particular individual doesn't like them. I'm not saying that a person shouldn't have the right to follow the dictates of whomever they wish, but seeing as how we have all been given a brain with which to reason, shouldn't all condemnations have at least a scintilla of reasonableness to them? As a small child, if your father or mother told you to never, ever do such-and-such, you pretty much took it for granted that doing such-and-such would be bad for someone or something in some way, and that their warning was not a mere whim.


From what I can gather, god's condemnation of homosexual acts is no more than that: a mere whim. No dire consequence result from homosexual physical expressions: it's just that god doesn't happen to like them.



Looking at it from another angle:






The Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) publishes a pamphlet called Critical Issues: Homosexuality. Among other things it states that:
"Although homosexual activity is a sin, it is not the unpardonable sin, or the most terrible of sins.​
Homosexuals can only lead moral lives by remaining celibate.
Discrimination against gays and lesbians is proper, in the areas of: employment.​
to protect the (presumably heterosexual) "family."​
to protect other social institutions.​
(emphasis mine)​
Evidently, as far as the SBC is concerned it is alright to be homosexually orientated (be attracted to people of the same sex) but not alright to engage in any physical expression of those feelings. Apparently, about as close to intimacy one homosexual may get to another is to say, "I love you."

So, my question is: What is it about physical contact---the touching of another's skin because it is pleasurable---that is inherently bad? How can mutual tactile pleasure be hailed in some circumstances (heterosexual) and reviled in others (homosexual)? As purely physical acts both are indistinguishable (anal sex among heterosexuals is seldom considered sinful). And from a purely emotional consideration both are also indistinguishable.

There must be something evil that comes alive in human physical contact when it is between someone of the same sex, but remains dormant when between someone of the opposite sex. Why is it that human physical contact has such a strange bifurcated nature: good in this circumstance but not that circumstance? It certainly can't be a matter of mental state, because most Christians readily concede that homosexual feelings are not sinful. Love someone of the same sex all you want, just don't express that love physically.

How very odd that a form of physical expression can be so schizophrenic. One that even forbids homosexuals from kissing. source
 
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LightHorseman

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Actually, lusting after another person is sin we have committed in our hearts already
according to Jesus and does not require an actual physical encounter for us to stand guilty
before God.
Really? Prove your interpretation is any more valid than mine?
 
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IamRedeemed

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It doesn't matter how many animals engage in brutal murder or sexually deviant practices, or eating their own poo, as well as their own young or anything else that animals do. None of them were created in the image of God so all of that rhetoric is completely inapplicable in attempting to argue with God and His will for mankind whom He did create in His own image and what He has said that He has judged and condemned as sin.
 
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LightHorseman

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It doesn't matter how many animals engage in brutal murder or sexually deviant practices, or eating their own poo, as well as their own young or anything else that animals do. None of them were created in the image of God so all of that rhetoric is completely inapplicable in attempting to argue with God and His will for mankind whom He did create in His own image and what He has said that He has judged and condemned as sin.
Well thats good to know. Thanks.
 
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