Does Your Church Hang Pictures Portraying Jesus

[LittleLambofJesus]

3

but three do not an Ecumenical Council make

True. None of the Apostles were there to make sure they were "rightly dividing the Word".

 

[simonthezealot]

it is a "local" example, the context is not applicable, and thats 2

Schaaf quoting church historian Eusibius...
The church historian Eusebius declared himself in the strongest manner against images of Christ in a letter to the empress Constantia (the widow of Licinius and sister of Constantine), who had asked him for such an image. Christ, says he, has laid aside His earthly servant-form, and Paul exhorts us to cleave no longer to the sensible;

He was speaking of 2 Cor 5:16
16 Wherefore[SIZE=+0] henceforth[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] know[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] we[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] no man[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] after[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] the flesh[/SIZE][SIZE=+0]: yea[/SIZE][SIZE=+0], though[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] we have known[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] Christ[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] after[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] the flesh[/SIZE][SIZE=+0], yet[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] now[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] henceforth[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] know we[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] him no more[/SIZE][SIZE=+0]. [/SIZE]

 

[simonthezealot]

3

but three do not an Ecumenical Council make

4
Irenaeus

In the context of describing the erroneous beliefs and practices of heretics, Irenaeus disapprovingly mentions that they venerate images "after the same manner of the Gentiles". The way in which they venerate images is no different from what Roman Catholics do. No Roman Catholic would disapprove of venerating an image of Jesus this way, but Irenaeus does disapprove of it:

"Others of them employ outward marks, branding their disciples inside the lobe of the right ear. From among these also arose Marcellina, who came to Rome under the episcopate of Anicetus, and, holding these doctrines, she led multitudes astray. They style themselves Gnostics. They also possess images, some of them painted, and others formed from different kinds of material; while they maintain that a likeness of Christ was made by Pilate at that time when Jesus lived among them. They crown these images, and set them up along with the images of the philosophers of the world that is to say, with the images of Pythagoras, and Plato, and Aristotle, and the rest. They have also other modes of honouring these images, after the same manner of the Gentiles." (Against Heresies, 1:25:6)

"These men [heretics], moreover, practise magic; and use images, incantations, invocations, and every other kind of curious art." (Against Heresies, 1:24:5)

 

[simonthezealot]

Clement of Alexandria

"the law itself exhibits justice, and teaches wisdom, by abstinence from sensible images" - Clement of Alexandria (The Stromata, 2:18)
"The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols." - Catechism of the Catholic Church (2132)

"familiarity with the sight disparages the reverence of what is divine; and to worship that which is immaterial by matter, is to dishonour it by sense." - Clement of Alexandria (The Stromata, 5:5)
"The required attentiveness [in meditation toward God] is difficult to sustain. We are usually helped by...holy icons" - Catechism of the Catholic Church (2705)

"Works of art cannot then be sacred and divine." - Clement of Alexandria (The Stromata, 7:5)

"sacred image...sacred images...sacred images" - Catechism of the Catholic Church (1159, 1161, 1192)

 

[Thekla]

4
Irenaeus

In the context of describing the erroneous beliefs and practices of heretics, Irenaeus disapprovingly mentions that they venerate images "after the same manner of the Gentiles". The way in which they venerate images is no different from what Roman Catholics do. No Roman Catholic would disapprove of venerating an image of Jesus this way, but Irenaeus does disapprove of it:

"Others of them employ outward marks, branding their disciples inside the lobe of the right ear. From among these also arose Marcellina, who came to Rome under the episcopate of Anicetus, and, holding these doctrines, she led multitudes astray. They style themselves Gnostics. They also possess images, some of them painted, and others formed from different kinds of material; while they maintain that a likeness of Christ was made by Pilate at that time when Jesus lived among them. They crown these images, and set them up along with the images of the philosophers of the world that is to say, with the images of Pythagoras, and Plato, and Aristotle, and the rest. They have also other modes of honouring these images, after the same manner of the Gentiles." (Against Heresies, 1:25:6)

"These men [heretics], moreover, practise magic; and use images, incantations, invocations, and every other kind of curious art." (Against Heresies, 1:24:5)

without reading context:

... in the manner of the pagans and showing a spiritual equality with pagan philosophers

 

[Thekla]

and a local problem, again

 

[simonthezealot]

....it is not possible at the same time to know God and to address prayers to images." - Origen (Against Celsus, 7:65)

 

[Asinner]

Simon,

You are an image of Christ, are you not?

Love,
Christina

 

[simonthezealot]

It would be awesome to hear followers of tradition say wow I didn't realise this!

 

[simonthezealot]

Simon,

You are an image of Christ, are you not?

Love,
Christina

I try to be, as HE created me in HIS image.
Why are you looking for a loophole?

 

[Asinner]

I try to be, as HE created me in HIS image.

I venerate you and love you as one made in His image. You are an icon of Christ.

Why are you looking for a loophole?

Am I?

Love,
Christina

 

[simonthezealot]

I venerate you and love you as one made in His image. You are an icon of Christ.

Love,
Christina

Thank you and I love you too sister...The diff is who made me...Furthermore we are called to love even our enemies, so
Edited:to add NOT saying we are enemies!

 

[Nickolai]

Origin was a heretic, and is one lone, early writer.

Do you expect that since one man said something that seems on the surface to contradict us we're suddenly gonna go, "Oh my God! this man is completely right, and every other piece of historical fact about the early Church , and the overwhelming concensus of other ECFs must be completely wrong"

That's just foolish

 

[Asinner]

The diff is who made me...

Could you elaborate, please.

Love,
Christina

 

[vanshan]

It would be awesome to hear followers of tradition say wow I didn't realise this!

The wealth of information to the contrary is not being presented here. These quotes, like scripture itself, can just as easily be misrepresented to paint a picture totally contrary to the truth. We have a consistent testimony within the Church and the councils affirming the use of icons, it's irrational to suppose we would turn our backs on the truths they affirmed. A few contrary opinions, if they are fairly being represented should not sway anyone. Any individual Church father could be in error, even a small group of them together. We must seek the consensus of all the Church, search the scriptures, and see the guidance of the Holy Spirit through the unity of practice established among His Body. Some who you've quoted are not even recognized as saint, due to known errors in their teachings, such as Origen who held other heterodox ideas.

Basil

 

[vanshan]

"Thus, what had only been a shadow in the Old Testament is now clearly seen. The Council in Trullo (691-2), in its 82nd Rule, stated:

Certain holy icons have the image of a lamb, at which is pointing the finger of the Forerunner. This lamb is taken as the image of grace, representing the True Lamb, Christ our God, Whom the law foreshadowed. Thus accepting with love the ancient images and shadows as prefigurations and symbols of truth transmitted to the Church, we prefer grace and truth, receiving it as the fulfillment of the law. Thus, in order to make plain this fulfillment for all eyes to see, if only by means of pictures, we ordain that from henceforth icons should represent, instead of the lamb of old, the human image of the Lamb, Who has taken upon Himself the sins of the world, Christ our God, so that through this we may perceive the height of the abasement of God the Word and be led to remember His life in the flesh, His Passion and death for our salvation and the ensuing redemption of the world."

From http://stots.edu/these_truths_we_hold.html

 

[simonthezealot]

Origin was a heretic, and is one lone, early writer.

Do you expect that since one man said something that seems on the surface to contradict us we're suddenly gonna go, "Oh my God! this man is completely right, and every other piece of historical fact about the early Church , and the overwhelming concensus of other ECFs must be completely wrong"

That's just foolish

what's foolish is commenting without research I've succinctly laid out 6 early church writers and have more that show images even of Christ were looked on in a negative sense and I'd bet prior to Chrysostom you guys would play heck finding many in favor of this...Surely nowhere near a consensus.
So I've shown 6 what do you have prior to St. John Chrysostom???

 

[simonthezealot]

2 Corinthians 5:16-17 (New International Version)

16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

 

[vanshan]

"As the word of Holy Scripture is an image, so the image is also a word, for, according to St. Basil the Great (f379), what the word transmits through the ear, that painting silently shows through the image [Discourse 19, On the 40 Martyrs]. In other words, the Icon contains and professes the same truth as the Gospels and therefore, like the Gospels, is based on exact data, and is not a human invention, for if it were otherwise, Icons could not explain the Gospels nor correspond to them."

Same source.

 

[simonthezealot]

"As the word of Holy Scripture is an image, so the image is also a word, for, according to St. Basil the Great (f379), what the word transmits through the ear, that painting silently shows through the image [Discourse 19, On the 40 Martyrs]. In other words, the Icon contains and professes the same truth as the Gospels and therefore, like the Gospels, is based on exact data, and is not a human invention, for if it were otherwise, Icons could not explain the Gospels nor correspond to them."

Same source.

Show me this in context please?
This is St. John quoting Basil is it not?