Does Your Church Hang Pictures Portraying Jesus

[Thekla]

Page 8 seemed to back people into a corner a little when I showed an ECf writing about his displeasure with a rug with the image of Christ or an apostle hanging in the church...It's good to view things from every angle even YOUR own...
http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=43333259&postcount=76

as before before before the epistle has not been

a. authenticated
b. is local or limited document, not a conciliar or ecumenical one

 

[prodromos]

"Moreover, I have heard that certain persons have this grievance against me: When I accompanied you to the holy place called Bethel, there to join you in celebrating the Collect, after the use of the Church, I came to a villa called Anablatha and, as I was passing, saw a lamp burning there. Asking what place it was, and learning it to be a church, I went in to pray, and found there a curtain hanging on the doors of the said church, dyed and embroidered. It bore an image either of Christ or of one of the saints; I do not rightly remember whose the image was. Seeing this, and being loth that an image of a man should be hung up in Christ's church contrary to the teaching of the Scriptures, I tore it asunder and advised the custodians of the place to use it as a winding sheet for some poor person. They, however, murmured, and said that if I made up my mind to tear it, it was only fair that I should give them another curtain in its place. As soon as I heard this, I promised that I would give one, and said that I would send it at once. Since then there has been some little delay, due to the fact that I have been seeking a curtain of the best quality to give to them instead of the former one, and thought it right to send to Cyprus for one. I have now sent the best that I could find, and I beg that you will order the presbyter of the place to take the curtain which I have sent from the hands of the Reader, and that you will afterwards give directions that curtains of the other sort--opposed as they are to our religion--shall not be hung up in any church of Christ. A man of your uprightness should be careful to remove an occasion of offence unworthy alike of the Church of Christ and of those Christians who are committed to your charge." - Epiphanius (Jerome's Letter 51:9)

Epiphanius is no Church Father. Following the pattern of his friend Theophilus, Bishop of Alexandria, it seems he was bent on causing division and strife where ever he went.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf202.ii.ix.xv.html

John was not offended because Epiphanius, contrary to the ecclesiastical canon, had made an ordination in his church but invited him to remain with him at the episcopal palace. He, however, replied that he would neither stay nor pray with him, unless he would expel Dioscorus and his brethren from the city, and with his own hand subscribe the condemnation of Origen’s books. Now as John deferred the performance of these things, saying that nothing ought to be done rashly before investigation by a general council, John’s adversaries led Epiphanius to adopt another course. For they contrived it so that as a meeting was in the church named The Apostles, Epiphanius came forth and before all the people condemned the books of Origen, excommunicated Dioscorus with his followers, and charged John with countenancing them. These things were reported to John; whereupon on the following day he sent the appended message to Epiphanius just as he entered the church:

‘You do many things contrary to the canons, Epiphanius. In the first place you have made an ordination in the churches under my jurisdiction: then without my appointment, you have on your own authority officiated in them. Moreover, when heretofore I invited you hither, you refused to come, and now you take that liberty yourself. Beware therefore, lest a tumult being excited among the people, you yourself should also incur danger therefrom.’​

Note that the Church in which Epiphanius tore down the curtain with the image of Christ or a saint was also under the jurisdiction of Bishop John Chrysostom. If the image was in fact in error, Bishop Epiphanius had no place doing anything in that Church, rather he should have reported it to Bishop John. In his letter to Chrysostom he makes no apology for his actions in violation of the Church canons, indeed he seems to make a concerted effort to insult in what ever way he can, even to saying that he sought a curtain of much higher quality to replace the one he tore down in Constantinople, from his own jurisdiction of Cyprus.

Epiphanius does not help your case.

John

 

[simonthezealot]

So why are you so against Catholicism? they believe in Jesus too.

It's the stupendous amount of times they preach false doctrine and the simple fact that they've the maxim that things need NOT be grounded in scripture and can yet be detrimental to ones salvation. I'm not against catholicism so much as i'm against her false doctrines and usurped authority.

 

[Komnenos]

It's the stupendous amount of times they preach false doctrine and the simple fact that they've the maxim that things need NOT be grounded in scripture and can yet be detrimental to ones salvation. I'm not against catholicism so much as i'm against her false doctrines and usurped authority.

Im not so sure Simon. If you REALLY researched the Catholic church hard you may find you and they believe much of the same things!
Or Am I false?

 

[simonthezealot]

Epiphanius is no Church Father. ....
Epiphanius does not help your case....

John

He does help the SCRIPTURAL case, in that the same thing we try to get you guys to see was noticed early on as well...

This is VERY typical, you know anytime an early church writer writes things to discredit your pov you guys throw them under the train...
I see you chose not to respond to the Miniscus debate!

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Im not so sure Simon. If you REALLY researched the Catholic church hard you may find you and they believe much of the same things!
Or Am I false?

I agree with Komnenos lol...I think a lot of our disagreements have to do with the wording, not with the actual ideas.

 

[simonthezealot]

Im not so sure Simon. If you REALLY researched the Catholic church hard you may find you and they believe much of the same things!
Or Am I false?

Friend my whole path to conversion came about by researching the Catholic church, to become a member potentially as it was how we were raising my son.
Kom, I understand her doctrines quite well i've even done a thread on here challenging Catholics to stump me.

My guess is I know her history better than 99% of actual Catholics.

 

[Komnenos]

Friend my whole path to conversion came about by researching the Catholic church, to become a member potentially as it was how we were raising my son.
Kom, I understand her doctrines quite well i've even done a thread on here challenging Catholics to stump me.

My guess is I know her history better than 99% of actual Catholics.

AHH! Peace in GT has escaped us once more! While we do have our Differences I think we can all agree on One thing.
Jesus is Lord!

 

[vanshan]

It's the stupendous amount of times they preach false doctrine and the simple fact that they've the maxim that things need NOT be grounded in scripture and can yet be detrimental to ones salvation. I'm not against catholicism so much as i'm against her false doctrines and usurped authority.

For us, we object to much of the RC teachings, not just because they aren't explicitly in the Bible, because many things pertaining to the Christian faith aren't, since it wasn't written as a complete catechism of the faith, but because many RC teachings have slid off course from the Apostolic teachings traceable to the early Church Fathers and councils, and through them to Christ directly.

Our beliefs cannot change, evolve, be reduced, or have new things added to them over time. We must preserve the deposit of faith Paul mentions in scripture, unchanged throughout time. Our job with the help of the Holy Spirit is to preserve the truth unchanged. That's the focus of the Orthodox Church. We defend that our body of dogmas, are those which were passed down from the beginning, not inovations later added or minimalist Christianity. We defend that the fulness has been preserved, without things being taken away from it or added to it. Customs may vary, but the core dogmas can never be compromised. That's why we sometimes come across as devisive. Well, that and the fact that we still fallible humans who can be rude in our presentation, proud in our assertions, and unloving in our treatment of others. Truth remains, regardless of our personal failures. Forgive me.

Basil

 

[simonthezealot]

I agree with Komnenos lol...I think a lot of our disagreements have to do with the wording, not with the actual ideas.

Monica no offense but I don't believe you've really ever addressed my eph 2:10 assertion. I don't think it is just wording...Its definition.

 

[simonthezealot]

AHH! Peace in GT has escaped us once more! While we do have our Differences I think we can all agree on One thing.
Jesus is Lord!

Amen, my friend! why did peace escape?

 

[Komnenos]

Amen, my friend! why did peace escape?

Because you have already researched the Catholic church. And hence, cannot come to an Epiphany of how they and you are similar

 

[simonthezealot]

Because you have already researched the Catholic church. And hence, cannot come to an Epiphany of how they and you are similar

Epiphany? unlikely.
Some common ground...It's there.

 

[Thekla]

He does help the SCRIPTURAL case, in that the same thing we try to get you guys to see was noticed early on as well...

This is VERY typical, you know anytime an early church writer writes things to discredit your pov you guys throw them under the train...
I see you chose not to respond to the Miniscus debate!

he's not 'discredited' because we disagree -- his letter is an isolated example.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Because you have already researched the Catholic church. And hence, cannot come to an Epiphany of how they and you are similar

You mean like us believing in the same Jesus as they do [I assume you mean the Roman CC]?

 

[Komnenos]

You mean like us believing in the same Jesus as they do [I assume you mean the Roman CC]?

Something like that

 

[simonthezealot]

he's not 'discredited' because we disagree -- his letter is an isolated example.

What about the miniscus debate?

 

[simonthezealot]

And Tertullian?

 

[Thekla]

What about the miniscus debate?

it is a "local" example, the context is not applicable, and thats 2

 

[Thekla]

And Tertullian?

3

but three do not an Ecumenical Council make