Question time. Jesus returns before or after 1000yrs

[LittleLambofJesus]

Hi. I have been reading the different viewpoints of different denomination, including the Orthdox, Roman church and mainstream Protestantism.
I have but one question. Does JESUS return Before or After the 1000yr period. I have looked at amillennialism and chiliasm both of which makes no Scriptural sense. Let the poll begin.

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see: Rapture refuted

Partial Preterism at PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterism

70ad:
A coming (parousia) of Christ
A day of the Lord
A judgment
The end of the Jewish Age
(Source: R.C. Sproul, Last Days)

Still future:
The Coming (parousia) of Christ
The Day of the Lord
The Resurrection of the dead
The Rapture of the living
The (final) Judgment
The end of history

 

[PROPHECYKID]

He returns before the 1000 years to resurrect and take his saints home with him. He returns after to judge those coming up in the second resurrection.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

He returns before the 1000 years to resurrect and take his saints home with him. He returns after to judge those coming up in the second resurrection.

Ok thanks. So that is what they call the "pre-mill" view correct?

So in that sense, is it Scripturally impossible for the Roman church's view that they are in the "millenium" now? This view is called
amillennialism.



quote Catholic Page 2 Post # 203
Chapter 20 Verse 1-3 deals with Christ's death and ressurection and his victory over Satan.

Chapter 20 Verse 4-5 Deals with Christ's Established Church that refussed to follow the beast. This was all done when Rome converted to Christianity and the 1000 years began.


http://www.gotquestions.org/amillennialism.html

The amillennial view comes from using one method of interpretation for unfulfilled prophecy and another one for non-prophetic Scripture and fulfilled prophecy. Non-prophetic Scripture and fulfilled prophecy are interpreted literally or normally. But according to the amillennialist, unfulfilled prophecy is to be interpreted spiritually, or non-literally. Those who hold to amillennialism believe that a "spiritual" reading of unfulfilled prophecy is the normal reading of the texts. This is called using a dual hermeneutic. Hermeneutics is the study of the principles of interpretation. The amillennialist assumes that most, or all, unfulfilled prophecy is written in symbolic, figurative, spiritual language. Therefore, the amillennialist will assign different meanings to those parts of Scripture than the normal, contextual meanings of those words.
It should be noted that the term Amillennialism is a reactionary title in that it denies the presence of a future literal 1000-year reign of Christ on earth that premillennialists affirm. However, Amillennialists do in fact believe in a millennium; what they reject, though, is the idea of a future literal 1000-year reign of Christ on earth after the second coming of Christ.
According to Amillennialism, the millennium of Revelation 20:1–6 is being fulfilled spiritually in the present age before the return of Jesus Christ. Thus, the millennium or kingdom of Christ is in existence now. Amillennialists affirm that the millennium began with the resurrection and/or ascension of Christ and will be consummated when Jesus returns again to establish the Eternal Kingdom that is discussed in Revelation 21–22.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

God returns to resurrect these people and the rest of the dead shall be risen at the end of the 1000 years.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The same event is spoken of and its happens before the 1000 years. After the 1000 years the rest of the dead who was not raised before the 1000 years are raised.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Thanks for that explanation of those views. I was never accustomed to labels and never understood them. I am not American so labels are not as easy to understand. Labels like liberals and conservatives and fundamentalists and then doctrinal labels like post mil and pre mil and post trib and pre trib and young earth views and all those stuff. Too many different labels.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

God returns to resurrect these people and the rest of the dead shall be risen at the end of the 1000 years.

Would you say 1 thess 3:13 occurs before the 1000yr period? This is the Second Coming if I am not mistaken.

1 Thessalonians 3:13 Into the stand-fast of ye, the hearts/kardiaV, blamebless in together-holiness before the God and Father of us in the Parousia <3952> of the Lord of us, Jesus Christ, with all of the holy-ones of Him. [Matthew 24]

Reve 19"11 And I perceived the heaven having be opened and Lo! A horse, white and the One sitting on it/him being called Faithful-one and True-one and in justice He is judging and is battling.

http://foru.ms/t5366795-what-is-the-parousia-in-the-new-testament.html

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Thanks for that explanation of those views. I was never accustomed to labels and never understood them. I am not American so labels are not as easy to understand. Labels like liberals and conservatives and fundamentalists and then doctrinal labels like post mil and pre mil and post trib and pre trib and young earth views and all those stuff. Too many different labels.

I just really started looking into them myself.
This is "chiliasm" which I believe the Roman church and perhaps other denominations condemn as "heretical". This would be after His second coming:

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O88-chiliasm.html

chiliasm The doctrine or belief that Christ will reign on earth for 1,000 years. There are numerous examples of chiliast cultic and sectarian movements in the history of the Christian Church. For example, in the medieval period, the Taborites (led by the Bohemian priest Martin Huska) preached the imminent advent of Christ, to be preceded by a period of catastrophe, followed by a New Age of His rule on earth (see H. Kaminsky , &#8216;Chiliasm and the Hussite Revolution&#8217;, Church History, 1957). Chiliasm is therefore a specific form of millenarianism and shares many of the same characteristics. Thus, in anticipation of the Second Coming, chiliast communities tend to secede from the larger social order, not only spiritually but also physically, often living (as did the Taborites for a time) in a state of collective emancipation&#8212;recognizing no traditional authorities, norms, or legal restraints; shunning family and home; and turning over material possessions to common funds.

http://www.timberlandbiblechurch.org/AgeToCome/catholic.htm

This is the Catholic's millennium, and according to the light we have of their faith in this respect, it stands thus: ~~ Their millennium covered the period of about one thousand years, in which they martyred over fifty millions of the saints. Then Protestantism commenced, or, as the Catholics understand it, the battle of Gog and Magog began against the Catholics. That battle, they suppose, is soon to terminate in the destruction of Gog and Magog, or all protestants, and others who will not turn Catholic; and, as a matter of course, the Catholics are expected to triumph, and to obtain universal power over all the world

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Would you say 1 thess 3:13 occurs before the 1000yr period? This is the Second Coming if I am not mistaken.

1 Thessalonians 3:13 Into the stand-fast of ye, the hearts/kardiaV, blamebless in together-holiness before the God and Father of us in the Parousia <3952> of the Lord of us, Jesus Christ, with all of the holy-ones of Him. [Matthew 24]

Reve 19"11 And I perceived the heaven having be opened and Lo! A horse, white and the One sitting on it/him being called Faithful-one and True-one and in justice He is judging and is battling.

http://christianforums.com/t5366795-what-is-the-parousia-in-the-new-testament.html

1Th 3:13
(BBE) So that your hearts may be strong and free from all sin before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints.

(ESV) so that he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints.

(ISV) Then your hearts will be strong in holiness and blameless in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his saints.

(KJVR) To the end he may establish your hearts unblamable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

(LITV) in order to establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and our Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.

(MKJV) in order to establish your hearts blameless in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.

(RV) to the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints.

parousia
par-oo-see'-ah
From the present participle of G3918; a being near, that is, advent (often, return; specifically of Christ to punish Jerusalem, or finally the wicked); (by implication) physical aspect: - coming, presence.

Paul seems to be implying that Jesus is coming with all his saints to meet saints. If your heart is blameless and is holy then you are a saint. All of these passages is speaking of the same event. Paul only writes about one resurrection and that is the first resurrection at the second coming before the millennium. The question I ask myself is: Is Jesus coming with saints to resurrect dead saints? Then who are the saints that he comes with?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

All of these passages is speaking of the same event. Paul only writes about one resurrection and that is the first resurrection at the second coming before the millennium. The question I ask myself is: Is Jesus coming with saints to resurrect dead saints? Then who are the saints that he comes with?

That would be way beyond the scope of this thread, as I am just interested in how others view this that rather "mysterious" 1000yr period for right now.

Zech 14:5 And you flee ravine of mountains, that he shall touch ravine of mountains to 'Atsel. And you flee as which you fled from before the earthquake in days of `Uzziyah king of Y@huwdah and He comes, YHWH my Elohiym, all of holy-ones with You.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

I just really started looking into them myself.
This is "chiliasm" which I believe the Roman church and perhaps other denominations condemn as "heretical". This would be after His second coming:

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O88-chiliasm.html

chiliasm The doctrine or belief that Christ will reign on earth for 1,000 years. There are numerous examples of chiliast cultic and sectarian movements in the history of the Christian Church. For example, in the medieval period, the Taborites (led by the Bohemian priest Martin Huska) preached the imminent advent of Christ, to be preceded by a period of catastrophe, followed by a New Age of His rule on earth (see H. Kaminsky , &#8216;Chiliasm and the Hussite Revolution&#8217;, Church History, 1957). Chiliasm is therefore a specific form of millenarianism and shares many of the same characteristics. Thus, in anticipation of the Second Coming, chiliast communities tend to secede from the larger social order, not only spiritually but also physically, often living (as did the Taborites for a time) in a state of collective emancipation&#8212;recognizing no traditional authorities, norms, or legal restraints; shunning family and home; and turning over material possessions to common funds.

http://www.timberlandbiblechurch.org/AgeToCome/catholic.htm

This is the Catholic's millennium, and according to the light we have of their faith in this respect, it stands thus: ~~ Their millennium covered the period of about one thousand years, in which they martyred over fifty millions of the saints. Then Protestantism commenced, or, as the Catholics understand it, the battle of Gog and Magog began against the Catholics. That battle, they suppose, is soon to terminate in the destruction of Gog and Magog, or all protestants, and others who will not turn Catholic; and, as a matter of course, the Catholics are expected to triumph, and to obtain universal power over all the world

I am shocked. Is that really true. Is that their belief? That is not nice at all. I always knew they had a "must be catholic to be saved" mentallity but not like the way i just read.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

That would be way beyond the scope of this thread, as I am just interested in how others view this that rather "mysterious" 1000yr period for right now.

Zech 14:5 And you flee ravine of mountains, that he shall touch ravine of mountains to 'Atsel. And you flee as which you fled from before the earthquake in days of `Uzziyah king of Y@huwdah and He comes, YHWH my Elohiym, all of holy-ones with You.

Ok fine. Im sorry. I just had the thought.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Ok fine. Im sorry. I just had the thought.

I just don't want this thread moved to the "Eschatology" board as this does concern Theological views of an event.
Wait till more vote. Thanks.

This word "parousia" is used only 4 times in the Gospels, all in Matt 24:

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Matthew 24:3 He is yet sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples toward-came to Him according to own, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what the Sign of the Thy ParousiaV <3952>, and of the together-finish/sun-teleiaV <4930> of the Age?'

Reve 19:11 And I perceived the heaven having be opened and Lo! A horse, white and the One sitting on it/him being called Faithful-one and True-one and in justice He is judging and is battling.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

parousia
Thayer Definition:
1) presence
2) the coming, arrival, advent
2a) the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God

 

[Rhamiel]

we are in the "1,000" year reign now, the Church is the kingdom of Christ

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

we are in the "1,000" year reign now, the Church is the kingdom of Christ

Thanks for taking the time to vote Rhamiel. Peace.
Steve

 

[Melethiel]

Hi. I have been reading the different viewpoints of different denomination, including the Orthdox, Roman church and mainstream Protestantism.
I have but one question. Does JESUS return Before or After the 1000yr period. I have looked at amillennialism and chiliasm both of which makes no Scriptural sense. Let the poll begin.

The 1000 years is figurative language.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The 1000 years is figurative language.

So are "clouds", and I just can't picture the Pope as the one sitting on that horse in Revelation 19:11, but then again who knows.

Scripture4All - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software

Hebrews 12:1 Therefore let us also, seeing we are compassed about with so great a cloud/nefoV <3509> of witnesses, lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Reve 1:7 Behold! He is coming with the clouds, and shall be seeing Him every eye, even who any Him they pierce. And shall be bewailing over Him all the tribes of the Land. Yea Amen. [Jeremiah 4:13/Zech 12:10/Daniel 7:13]

Reve 19:11 And I perceived the heaven having be opened and Lo! A horse, white and the One sitting on it/him being called Faithful-one and True-one and in justice He is judging and is battling.
14 And the armies, the in the heaven, followed to him on horses, white, having been inslipped/dressed linen, white clean,

 

[garry2]

The 1000 years is figurative language.

The 1000 years is literal language.
At one end of the millinium is the first resurrection, and at the other is the second death, following ofcourse the second resurrection.
Revelation 20
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[ross3421]

The 1000 years is literal language.
At one end of the millinium is the first resurrection, and at the other is the second death, following ofcourse the second resurrection.

All the other resurrection verses do not show this gap?

How do you explain this away?.


Mark

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The 1000 years is literal language.

So is the "lake of fire".

I am even of the view the "great city burning" could be the "lake of fire". Lot of Jewish/Hebrew symbology...........Please cast a vote if you post. Thanks.

Reve 18:9
And shall be lamenting, and shall be beating breasts over her, the kings of the Land, the ones with her fornicating and indulging, whenever they may be observing the Smoke of the firing/purwsewV <4451> of Her.

Reve 19:20
and is arrested the wild-beast and with it the false-prophet, the one-doing the signs in view of it, in which he deceives the ones getting the mark of the wild beast and the ones worshipping to the image of it, living were cast, the two, into the Lake/limnhn <3041> of the fire/puroV <4442> the one burning/kaiomenhn <2545> (5746) in to the sulphur/qeiw <2303>.


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