Vote: the nicene creed shud be restored to cf or not?

[brachah]

vote can be found here:

http://christianforums.com/t6632074-creed-yes-or-no.html

in christian apologetics forum. welcome to vote there!

 

[Hentenza]

WA,

I disagree with your statement. The Nicene creed should be used for all of theology and would make moderation more consistent.

 

[Hentenza]

Cause I is one.

 

[cubanito]

Just what is the status of rules these days?

JR

 

[DeaconDean]

To me, it does not matter whether or not they deide to bring it back.

Creeds and confessions have their roots in Catholicism. Not that that is a bad thing, per se, but, given the history of Baptists in general, we refuse to be made to affirm a creed or confession of any kind.

Now I might agree to all the principles on which the Nicene Creed was founded upon, but I refuse to be made to affirm it as required to be a member of something.

"Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." -Mt. 5:33-37 (KJV)

"But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation." -Jas. 5:12 (KJV)

Being a Baptist, I will not be made to swear to, neither affirm any creed or confession.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Hentenza]

What??? Are you accusing me of not having sound doctrine?:o

You are making quite a blanket statement, don't you think?

 

[DeaconDean]

What??? Are you accusing me of not having sound doctrine?:o

You are making quite a blanket statement, don't you think?

Brother, we get that all the time.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[WarEagle]

To me, it does not matter whether or not they deide to bring it back.

Creeds and confessions have their roots in Catholicism. Not that that is a bad thing, per se, but, given the history of Baptists in general, we refuse to be made to affirm a creed or confession of any kind.

Now I might agree to all the principles on which the Nicene Creed was founded upon, but I refuse to be made to affirm it as required to be a member of something.

"Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." -Mt. 5:33-37 (KJV)

"But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation." -Jas. 5:12 (KJV)

Being a Baptist, I will not be made to swear to, neither affirm any creed or confession.

God Bless

Till all are one.

So, do you hold to the Baptist Distinctives?

 

[DeaconDean]

So, do you hold to the Baptist Distinctives?

Like I said, I may agree to the principles on which it was written, but I have not been made to affirm, or sware by any creed or even Baptist confession.

And unless I'm mistaken, nowhere is it required by any Baptist Christian to affirm any creed or confession in order to be part of the Baptist faith.

When I joined the church I'm a member of now, i was asked three questions:

Did I believe I was saved?

Would I use my time, tithes, and tallents for the good of the church?

And would I help win the lost to Christ?

I was never asked: Do you affirm the Baptist Faith and Message of 2000?

Or: Do you affirm the 2nd London Confession?

No sir, like I said before:

I might agree to all the principles on which the Nicene Creed was founded upon, but I refuse to be made to affirm it as required to be a member of something.

"Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." -Mt. 5:33-37 (KJV)

"But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation." -Jas. 5:12 (KJV)

Being a Baptist, I will not be made to swear to, neither affirm any creed or confession.

At: http://www.sbc.net/bfm/, it says:

the purpose of this statement of faith and message to set forth certain teachings which we believe."

But absolutely nowhere does it say we have to affirm it or sware by it!!!

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[WarEagle]

Like I said, I may agree to the principles on which it was written

So then, you do believe in a creed.

but I have not been made to affirm, or sware by any creed or even Baptist confession.

And unless I'm mistaken, nowhere is it required by any Baptist Christian to affirm any creed or confession in order to be part of the Baptist faith.

When I joined the church I'm a member of now, i was asked three questions:

Did I believe I was saved?

Would I use my time, tithes, and tallents for the good of the church?

And would I help win the lost to Christ?

I was never asked: Do you affirm the Baptist Faith and Message of 2000?

Or: Do you affirm the 2nd London Confession?

No sir, like I said before:



At: http://www.sbc.net/bfm/, it says:



But absolutely nowhere does it say we have to affirm it or sware by it!!!

God Bless

Till all are one.

I understand where you're coming from and my point is not that we should affirm creeds or deny them, but just that creeds and confessions are not bad in and of themselves and that all Christians, whether they realize it or not, do hold to one creed or confession or another.

I, personally, don't think you should be afraid of them. They're not an endorsement of Roman Catholicism, but just a handy way to codify our doctrine so that we can be clear on it and be unified around it.

 

[DeaconDean]

So then, you do believe in a creed.



I understand where you're coming from and my point is not that we should affirm creeds or deny them, but just that creeds and confessions are not bad in and of themselves and that all Christians, whether they realize it or not, do hold to one creed or confession or another.

I, personally, don't think you should be afraid of them. They're not an endorsement of Roman Catholicism, but just a handy way to codify our doctrine so that we can be clear on it and be unified around it.

Well, you have your opinions, and I have mine.

But when it comes to the point, again, where one has to affirm the Nicene Creed in order to be a member here, lets here what you have to say then.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[WarEagle]

Well, you have your opinions, and I have mine.

I suppose we do, but the fact remains that, whether you want to believe it or not, you do hold to some creeds and confessions.

 

[DeaconDean]

I suppose we do, but the fact remains that, whether you want to believe it or not, you do hold to some creeds and confessions.

Prove it!

I make no use of creeds, but I use confessions as a guide as to where to find in the scriptures certain things in which I believe.

I like the wording of the Westminster Confession of 1642, and the 2nd London Confession, The 1782 Philadelphia Baptist Confession, and the Abstract of Principles of 1858 as reference tools. But you fail to see that there is a difference between using a tool and being made to affirm to hold to something.

If the last time was any indication, I imagine I'll be asking why the moderators aren't enforcing it and why people are allowed to deny key tenets of the creed and still call themselves Christians.

If you have so much of a problem with moderators, or supermoderators, or the Administrators, why not go higher? If you have a problem with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, or The Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses, stay out of their forums. i can't do nothing about that. But I can do something about the Christian areas I'm in.

And then I'll get the obligatory infraction for daring to ask why some posters are allowed to get away with breaking that rule.

The Bible says we are to:

"Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another." -Rom. 14:19 (KJV)

And to:

"Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do." -1 Thes. 5:11 (KJV)

But all I have seen from you in the last little while is tearing down, not building up.

So why are you here?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[WarEagle]

Prove it!

Do you affirm or deny the tenets of the Apostles' Creed?

But you fail to see that there is a difference between using a tool and being made to affirm to hold to something.

You're the one who keeps making it about "being made" to affirm them, not me.

But all I have seen from you in the last little while is tearing down, not building up.

When did I tear you down?

So why are you here?

Because it's an open thread and I'm allowed to post here.

 

[DeaconDean]

Do you affirm or deny the tenets of the Apostles' Creed?

This is a discussion of bringing back the Nicene Creed, not the Apostles creed. Irrelavent!

But does either address or affirm:

1. Judges all things by the Bible, and is judged only by the Bible, aka - "Sola Scriptura";

I don't think so.

You're the one who keeps making it about "being made" to affirm them, not me.

That is correct, because even though it is not written down specifically, except in the Theology section, adherance to, affirmation of, is or will be the issue.

When did I tear you down?

Discussion of Moderator actions is forbidden in the open forums. Are you trolling or baiting me?

Because it's an open thread and I'm allowed to post here.

You are constantly finding fault with everything that is done here. Mostly anybody who has an "M" beside their name.

The Bible also says:

"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:..Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour." -Rom. 13:1-3, 7 (KJV)

But since you have the "right" to post here, I'll not debate it.

May God Bless you in your convictions.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

I see. So then the Nicene Creed is more of a creed than the Apostle's Creed?

OK. I'll play along: do you affirm or do you deny the tenets of the Nicene Creed?

Who wrote the Nicene/Apostles Creed?

So, if that's correct and you're the one making it the issue, why are claiming that I'm the one making it the issue.

I never said you were. I said I had had a problem with it as far as being made to affirm it as was done in the past.

I didn't say anything about moderator actions. I asked you to back up your claim that I've torn you down.

I repeat:

Discussion of Moderator actions is forbidden in the open forums.

From the rules:

Issues with staff decisions should be taken to the staff member, then the reconciliation team, period. Don't post them, don't PM them to others, don't take them to Lee.

Perhaps that's because there's so much fault to be found.

If there is, why do you keep coming back here?

There are other forums where you can say whatever you want.

Have you really never wondered why there are so many good posters appealing their infractions? Did you really never wonder why so many good moderators and posters left after Irwin made his changes? Have you really never wondered why so many message boards have been started by former ChristianForums members and why so many members, such as myself, are flocking there?

I post on another Christian message board and am good cyber friends with the mods and admin (I was offered a mod position and have helped to consult them on doctrinal and practical matters in the past). The administrator of that board told me that there are so many people leaving ChristianForums and signing up there that they were actually backed up so badly that it took them up to three weeks to confirm new members.

You can try to paint me as some crackpot lone gunman, but the truth is that many, many posters here have a problem with the way things are done and you know that.

So what has that got to do with the price of tea in China? Or the current issue at hand?

I agree. I don't see what that has to do with anything here, but I agree that we should be subject to the government.

So I'm not a higher power? Being a Deacon in the Baptist church. Or any of the other moderators here?

Oh well.

God Bless you brother.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[WarEagle]

Who wrote the Nicene/Apostles Creed?

The tenets of the two creeds are based on God's word.

Do you affirm or do you deny the tenets expressed in these creeds?

I repeat:



From the rules:

Issues with staff decisions should be taken to the staff member, then the reconciliation team, period. Don't post them, don't PM them to others, don't take them to Lee.

And, again, I didn't say anything about moderator actions. I'm asking you to back up your claims about my actions.

You claim that I tore you down. When did I ever tear you down?

If there is, why do you keep coming back here?

Because I have a ministry here and the good I'm able to do through that ministry outweighs the nonsense I have to put up with.

So what has that got to do with the price of tea in China? Or the current issue at hand?

I explained what it has to do with the issue at hand.

So I'm not a higher power?

You're not the government. That's what the passage you cited is refering to.

Being a Deacon in the Baptist church.

I'm an elder in a Baptist church. In church hierarchy, an elder is over a deacon. Does that mean that you should subject yourself to me?

 

[flaglady]

To the person who reported me for saying that the moderators don't enforce the Nicene Creed, go ahead and report me all you like, but it happens to be true.

When the rules stated that one must adhere to the Nicene Creed to be considered a Christian, several posters were allowed to call themselves Christians even though they denied key tenets of the Nicene Creed.

Rochir and united4peace, for example, both deny the resurrection of Christ, and the atonement of Christ.

So, I did not "lie" about staff, as you claimed. I have these two examples to back up what I said as the truth.

Likewise, I did not lie about staff when I said that staff do not enforce the rules evenly.

For example, somebody can falsely accuse me of flaming (such as you have done) and that's a violation of the rules and I am either censored or given an infraction.

However, when somebody flames me, I'm just told to choose not to be offended.

Have you ever gone and read the posts by atheists in General Apologetics?

The rules say that they are not allowed to mock Christianity or God. And yet, the moderators allow the mockery of God and of Christianity in virtually every thread.

In fact, some threads are started for the sole purpose of mocking God and yet, the moderators stand by and do nothing to enforce the rule against blasphemy and mocking God.

So, again, I do have evidence.

WE, you misunderstand the role of staff in this forum. We are here to keep the peace, not to enforce doctrine. If you want to confirm your doctrine, go to the elders of your church, not the moderators here. You may have noticed, the rules are deliberately broad spectrum. We work to them but we can apply them IN CONTEXT. The legalistic, restrictive type of moderation you seem to desire will not be found on here.

If you find it on any other forum I would be interested to know which one! I have around 20 accounts on a variety of different forums, half of them Christian, and many of them I am staff from webmaster to mod. The rules on those forums are applied in just the same way as they are on here.

 

[DeaconDean]

The tenets of the two creeds are based on God's word.

Do you affirm or do you deny the tenets expressed in these creeds?

Again, I ask you, who wrote the Apostles Creed and the Nicene Creed?

"Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men." -Acts 5:29 (KJV)

The fact still remains, both "creeds" were written by men. Written by men in the "Catholic" church. Now, you can bow down to the written word of men if you want, but as a supporter of "Sola Scriptura," God's word, the Holy Bible, is my final authority. Not some "creed."

And in case you missed it, let me piont out one of the tenants of this "Fundamental" room:

Judges all things by the Bible, and is judged only by the Bible, aka - "Sola Scriptura";

Now you show me where the Apostles Creed and the Nicene Creed was "qeopneustoV" (theopnenstos/God-breathed/inspired -2 Tim. 3:16) and I'll change my stance, otherwise:

Talk to the hand because the face don't wanna hear it!

And, again, I didn't say anything about moderator actions. I'm asking you to back up your claims about my actions.

You claim that I tore you down. When did I ever tear you down?

Again, I cannot discuss that.

Because I have a ministry here and the good I'm able to do through that ministry outweighs the nonsense I have to put up with.

What ministry? The only thing I've heard from you is constant griping about the "rules", doctrine, the actions of the moderators, etc.

You're not the government. That's what the passage you cited is refering to.

Since you seem to believe that this passage is restricted only to "government," so be it. I'll not argue with you.

I'm an elder in a Baptist church. In church hierarchy, an elder is over a deacon. Does that mean that you should subject yourself to me?

So am I brother. Our Southern Baptist church does not recognize "elders" per se, but being a Deacon, I'm recognized as one in my church. And I have served my church in the role of "Associate Pastor," while serving as the Chairman of the Deacons, so I guess you could consider me a "presbuteriou" (presbuterion/elder - 1 Tim. 4:14). Licensed and ordained by my church in 2000.

WE, for what its worth, for all your constant griping, complaining, and such, your simply just not not worth it. If what I have seen here is typical your ministry both here and in your church,....

I'm done.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[FreeinChrist]

The topic of this thread is whether the Nicene Creed should be restored to CF or not. The OP directs members to his own poll in another section of CF.

The topic of this thread is NOT about staff.