Liberal vs. Conservative

[Haggai]

I'm just wondering what should be done (if anything) about the division amongst Adventists (and throughout all Christianity) with conservatism and liberalism.

Do you think God intended that we all separate into our own factions with our own beliefs or should we all be one...?

I for one don't think there is such thing as a liberal Christian and a conservative Christian. I think God intended for there to be one body of believers united in Christ. I do know Romans 14 talks about the weak in faith, but it doesn't really have much to do with modern issues with conservatives and liberals. It's mostly all about food...

Discussion?

 

[OntheDL]

Jesus did not intend to bring peace on earth, but brought division among men. Rev 14:12 tells us the patience of the saints is keeping of the commandments of God and having the testimony of Jesus.

The true believers of Jesus are united in Christ on doctrine and belief. This religious movement calls for holiness and seperation in preparation for the return of Jesus Christ: the Three Angels message.

The other movement, the counterfeit religious movement calls for the unity of all religions (protestants, catholics, muslims, buddhists...) in the name of love and irrespect of believes for the coming of the universal christ: this is the ecumenical movement/the one world religion.

 

[Haggai]

Jesus did not intend to bring peace on earth, but brought division among men. Rev 14:12 tells us the patience of the saints is keeping of the commandments of God and having the testimony of Jesus.

Agreed. But do these saints all agree on doctrinal issues? In heaven will there be cons. and libs. still fighting over whats acceptable to do on the Sabbath?

The true believers of Jesus are united in Christ on doctrine and belief. This religious movement calls for holiness and seperation in preparation for the return of Jesus Christ: the Three Angels message.

OK.

The other movement, the counterfeit religious movement calls for the unity of all religions (protestants, catholics, muslims, buddhists...) in the name of love and irrespect of believes for the coming of the universal christ: this is the ecumenical movement/the one world religion.

Right. I think ecumenism is wrong. However, but I'm not talking about religion at-large, i'm talking about the division within adventism.

 

[OntheDL]

Agreed. But do these saints all agree on doctrinal issues? In heaven will there be cons. and libs. still fighting over whats acceptable to do on the Sabbath?

Sure the last days saints will have more revelations as the bible tells us the sealed books in Daniel are opened in the end time. But the truth never changes.

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Right. I think ecumenism is wrong. However, but I'm not talking about religion at-large, i'm talking about the division within adventism.

Just look at liberal adventists' believes. They are almost identical to the mainstream christian believes. The liberalism in the SDA church is a direct result of the Ecumenical movement.

I have a book written by Jesuit Karl Rahner and Heinrich Fries, titled "Unity of the Churches". It talks about using doctrinal and liturgical changes to bring the protestant churches back to the mother church. The adventists will be 'marginalized'.

 

[freeindeed2]

I'm just wondering what should be done (if anything) about the division amongst Adventists (and throughout all Christianity) with conservatism and liberalism.

Do you think God intended that we all separate into our own factions with our own beliefs or should we all be one...?

I for one don't think there is such thing as a liberal Christian and a conservative Christian. I think God intended for there to be one body of believers united in Christ. I do know Romans 14 talks about the weak in faith, but it doesn't really have much to do with modern issues with conservatives and liberals. It's mostly all about food...

Discussion?

There is ONE body of Christ (church) made up of all who believe in HIM, and Christ is the head of the body (church). It is the HOLY SPIRIT (GOD) living IN us that unites us all, and HE (GOD) cannot be divided.

In Christ alone...

 

[Haggai]

There is ONE body of Christ (church) made up of all who believe in HIM, and Christ is the head of the body (church). It is the HOLY SPIRIT (GOD) living IN us that unites us all, and HE (GOD) cannot be divided.

In Christ alone...

Thank you for your reply. However it did not address my question. Of course all true Christians are filled with the same Holy Spirit. But i'll be hard-pressed to believe there isn't an extreme division within Christianity, to the point where un-Christ-like things occur, which certainly isn't the working of the Holy Spirit.

 

[capnator]

You ask what can be done?

Well you can make sure that YOU are seeking first the kingdom of God and that YOU are Eph 4:3Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.


What can be done? Start with YOU!

 

[freeindeed2]

Thank you for your reply. However it did not address my question. Of course all true Christians are filled with the same Holy Spirit.

Jesus started ONE church, and it's not a denomination. And not all denominations are divided against the rest of Christianity the way SDAism has divided itself. They may not agree on some things, but that's a far cry from calling the church 'divided'. Even the Apostles didn't agree on everything. Referring to all other protestant churches as 'daughters of the harlot' is no way to seek unity with the larger body of Christ.

But i'll be hard-pressed to believe there isn't an extreme division within Christianity, to the point where un-Christ-like things occur, which certainly isn't the working of the Holy Spirit.

If they're divided against the body of Christ doing 'un-Christ-like things', then they're not Christians in the first place. And calling people or groups or sects out for their false teachings is NOT division within the body. Christ's church IS united by the Holy Spirit, and it IS united on Christ Jesus alone.

 

[RND]

Discussion?

Jesus was a liberal during His day.

 

[honorthesabbath]

Jesus was a liberal during His day.

HI RND--I don't know if I agree with you on this one or not.

I think Jesus was actually a hard core conservative who was trying to bring back the old truths that the liberals had vanquished. He keep bringing them 'back to the book--back to the book'--but with the correct interpretation of that book!

But then again--isn't history full of evidence that the pendulum never stops in the middle? It's always from one extreme to the other, but NEVER balanced.

Isa 32:5 The vile person shall be no more called liberal, nor the churl said to be bountiful.

 

[freeindeed2]

I think Jesus was actually a hard core conservative

From who's perspective? Jesus IS/was/always has been/always will be God.

who was trying to bring back the old truths that the liberals had vanquished.

Jesus IS the truth. The Jews were the ones stuck back in the old truths. They didn't realize that TRUTH Himself was walking among them. They knew the 'old truths' like the back of their hand, but they didn't know Jesus/God.

He keep bringing them 'back to the book--back to the book'--but with the correct interpretation of that book!

He kept bringing them to himself. The 'Book' pointed forward to Himself. He's still bringing people to Himself today, but some want to run back to the 'old truths' instead of LIVING in Christ.

Jesus said, “You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me! Yet you refuse to come to me to receive this life." John 5:39, 40

He didn't come to give them his 'interpretation' of the 'Book'. He came to seek and save the lost. He came to give us life to the fullest (which is IN Him). He came to do away with sin once and for all for those who believe in him for salvation. He came, not just to 'dwell with his people' as he did in the old covenant/10 C's, but to establish a new relationship with humanity where he would live IN them, thus guaranteeing ALL that he (GOD) promised. He is the Living Word, the exact representation of the Father, and his Spirit (GOD) lives IN us CAUSING us to reflect God's glory more and more, changing us from the inside out (since we cannot change ourselves). Victory is in Christ. Overcoming is in Christ. Eternal life is in Christ. Righteousness is in Christ. Jesus is our Everything, and yet people still miss him just like the Jews, and instead want to run back to the road signs instead of the Destination.

History truly does repeat itself.

In Christ alone...

 

[RND]

HI RND--I don't know if I agree with you on this one or not.

I think Jesus was actually a hard core conservative who was trying to bring back the old truths that the liberals had vanquished. He keep bringing them 'back to the book--back to the book'--but with the correct interpretation of that book!

But then again--isn't history full of evidence that the pendulum never stops in the middle? It's always from one extreme to the other, but NEVER balanced.

Isa 32:5 The vile person shall be no more called liberal, nor the churl said to be bountiful.

Considering how he changed the social norms of His day, how He displayed the true nature & character of God and how He conducted Himself to the point that His strength was perceived as weakness, I would definately have to say that Jesus was a "liberal" in His day.

Even to this day, if one attempts to view the world and conduct themselves in much the way as Jesus did in His, they are considered weak, even though it is strength to be smacked on the check and turn the other....in love.

 

[NightEternal]

[/color][/b]
From who's perspective? Jesus IS/was/always has been/always will be God.


Jesus IS the truth. The Jews were the ones stuck back in the old truths. They didn't realize that TRUTH Himself was walking among them. They knew the 'old truths' like the back of their hand, but they didn't know Jesus/God.


He kept bringing them to himself. The 'Book' pointed forward to Himself. He's still bringing people to Himself today, but some want to run back to the 'old truths' instead of LIVING in Christ.

Jesus said, “You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me! Yet you refuse to come to me to receive this life." John 5:39, 40

He didn't come to give them his 'interpretation' of the 'Book'. He came to seek and save the lost. He came to give us life to the fullest (which is IN Him). He came to do away with sin once and for all for those who believe in him for salvation. He came, not just to 'dwell with his people' as he did in the old covenant/10 C's, but to establish a new relationship with humanity where he would live IN them, thus guaranteeing ALL that he (GOD) promised. He is the Living Word, the exact representation of the Father, and his Spirit (GOD) lives IN us CAUSING us to reflect God's glory more and more, changing us from the inside out (since we cannot change ourselves). Victory is in Christ. Overcoming is in Christ. Eternal life is in Christ. Righteousness is in Christ. Jesus is our Everything, and yet people still miss him just like the Jews, and instead want to run back to the road signs instead of the Destination.

History truly does repeat itself.

In Christ alone...

BINGO! And the all-expense paid trip to Hawaii goes to Free!

 

[Sophia7]

BINGO! And the all-expense paid trip to Hawaii goes to Free!

Are you paying?

 

[Cliff2]

I'm just wondering what should be done (if anything) about the division amongst Adventists (and throughout all Christianity) with conservatism and liberalism.

Do you think God intended that we all separate into our own factions with our own beliefs or should we all be one...?

I for one don't think there is such thing as a liberal Christian and a conservative Christian. I think God intended for there to be one body of believers united in Christ. I do know Romans 14 talks about the weak in faith, but it doesn't really have much to do with modern issues with conservatives and liberals. It's mostly all about food...

Discussion?

I would like to state here as to what I think the difference between the two groups are and as such I do not believe that they will ever be truly united.

It all comes down to what we believe the "Nature of Christ".

The conservatives believe that Christ took the nature of Adam after the fall where as the libs believe that Christ took the nature of Adam before the fall.

Now there are probably some who would class themselves as one group or the other that believe the opposite to what I have just wrote but I am talking here about the majority that belong to each group.

From there you have then a different approach to salvation.

The libs believe that we will never completely overcome as Christ overcame and the conservatives believe that unlsee we do overcome as Christ did then we will not be saved.

In fact that until we do then Christ will not return. They believe that Christ is waiting for a perfect group of people that have overcame just like He did so he can come back, such a group would be the "144,000".

The libs take Eph 2:8,9 as their verse when it comes to salvation where as the conservatives tend to use "Faith without works is dead" from James. For them James is their creed where as the libs tend to stick with Romans more.

There is more to it but at least this is a start.

 

[honorthesabbath]

[/COLOR][/B]
From who's perspective? Jesus IS/was/always has been/always will be God.


Jesus IS the truth. The Jews were the ones stuck back in the old truths. They didn't realize that TRUTH Himself was walking among them. They knew the 'old truths' like the back of their hand, but they didn't know Jesus/God.


He kept bringing them to himself. The 'Book' pointed forward to Himself. He's still bringing people to Himself today, but some want to run back to the 'old truths' instead of LIVING in Christ.

Jesus said, “You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me! Yet you refuse to come to me to receive this life." John 5:39, 40

He didn't come to give them his 'interpretation' of the 'Book'. He came to seek and save the lost. He came to give us life to the fullest (which is IN Him). He came to do away with sin once and for all for those who believe in him for salvation. He came, not just to 'dwell with his people' as he did in the old covenant/10 C's, but to establish a new relationship with humanity where he would live IN them, thus guaranteeing ALL that he (GOD) promised. He is the Living Word, the exact representation of the Father, and his Spirit (GOD) lives IN us CAUSING us to reflect God's glory more and more, changing us from the inside out (since we cannot change ourselves). Victory is in Christ. Overcoming is in Christ. Eternal life is in Christ. Righteousness is in Christ. Jesus is our Everything, and yet people still miss him just like the Jews, and instead want to run back to the road signs instead of the Destination.

History truly does repeat itself.

In Christ alone...

Ok then Free--Jesus DIDN'T say--"IT IS WRITTEN" on many occasions. You win.

 

[freeindeed2]

Ok then Free--Jesus DIDN'T say--"IT IS WRITTEN" on many occasions. You win.

Are you denying that JESUS is the FULL revelation of the Father? Do you deny that HE is the EXACT likeness of the Father?

I SERIOUSLY DO NOT understand your point, unless you're trying to point to some lame human authority OUTSIDE of Jesus Christ. You're making reference back to the road signs instead of the Destination. 'IT IS WRITTEN' refers to what pointed FORWARD to Christ himself. Jesus (Destination) has already come!

In Christ alone...

 

[reddogs]

Let me remind everyone, the Main SDA Forum is a non-debate area...


Main SDA Forum

1.1 This is a non-debate area, reserved for fellowship and questions. Questions on doctrines and beliefs can be asked in the Main SDA Forum. Questions that are likely to lead to debate should be asked in the Debate/Discussion Sub-forum.


Red
Seventh-Day Adventist Forum Moderator