Outer Calling And Inner Calling.......

[holdon]

these questions have nothing to do with the text , you cannot argue that it all depends on what theological position a person holds determines a text , how are you going to react when the same insinuation is directed at you ;


*holdon only believes this text ,
" and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." John 6:37b , teaches osas because he is a believer in osas , if he didn't have a prior commitment to osas he would see a condition is over osas !!!


the bottom line is either we take the text as fact or we say Jesus really meant something he forgot to mention .

I see two similar statements in Jn 6 as to who comes to Jesus:

"all that the Father gives me shall come to me, and him that comes to me I will not at all cast out"

And:
"Every one that has heard from the Father himself, and has learned of him, comes to me;"

He who comes to Jesus, has heard and learned of the Father is also given by the Father to Jesus.

So, the coming to Jesus is conditional upon hearing and believing the Father. Only those will be given to Jesus and He will not cast them out.
Once they are thus saved, they're always saved. But these verses say nothing about "election to salvation" nor does any other passage in the bible.

 

[Ormly]

Once they are thus saved, they're always saved. .

Ok. Where then does fit this into your thinking?

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Hebrews 6:4-6 (KJV)

 

[holdon]

Ok. Where then does fit this into your thinking?

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Hebrews 6:4-6 (KJV)

6:7 For ground which drinks the rain which comes often upon it, and produces useful herbs for those for whose sakes also it is tilled, partakes of blessing from God;
6:8 but bringing forth thorns and briars, it is found worthless and nigh to a curse, whose end is to be burned. 6:9 But we are persuaded concerning you, beloved, better things, and connected with salvation, even if we speak thus.

You can water and till the ground as often as you want. if the good seed is not received, it will still produce "thorns and briars". All blessing from God is useless, if the Good Seed is not received. The Hebrews were not such: they were producing good results:

"For God is not unrighteous to forget your work, and the love which ye have shewn to his name, having ministered to the saints, and still ministering."

 

[Ormly]

You can water and till the ground as often as you want. if the good seed is not received,

Received? Of course it was received and they partook of the heavenly gift even tasted of the things to come.

it will still produce "thorns and briars". All blessing from God is useless, if the Good Seed is not received. The Hebrews were not such: they were producing good results:

???

"Who have tasted of the heavenly gift, made partakers of the Holy Ghost, have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come. . . ", pertains to the Hebrews? The Jewish nation?

. . . If they shall fall away, [when did they ever get on board?] to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh.

I don't think so. You gotta do better than that.

 

[holdon]

Received? Of course it was received and they partook of the heavenly gift even tasted of the things to come.


???

"Who have tasted of the heavenly gift, made partakers of the Holy Ghost, have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come. . . ", pertains to the Hebrews? The Jewish nation?

. . . If they shall fall away, [when did they ever get on board?] to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh.

I don't think so. You gotta do better than that.

The fall away from the Christian religion, the Christian faith, because they were not really Christians on the inside. But once a child always a child.

 

[Ormly]

The fall away from the Christian religion, the Christian faith, because they were not really Christians on the inside. But once a child always a child.

Sorry, the inference they were not Christians in totality is not there to conclude as you have done. The OSAS position is left indefensible by this text, though I know is not admitted as such. To read it wrong is one thing. To wilfully read it wrong is another. What side will you fall down on?

 

[holdon]

Sorry, the inference they were not Christians in totality is not there to conclude as you have done. The OSAS position is left indefensible by this text, though I know is not admitted as such. To read it wrong is one thing. To wilfully read it wrong is another. What side will you fall down on?

Then you're reading it wrong. You have no proof that these were born again Christians. The fruit proves the tree.

 

[Ormly]

Then you're reading it wrong. You have no proof that these were born again Christians. The fruit proves the tree.

The inferrences proves them to be Christians. What other yardstick you need??

 

[cygnusx1]

The fall away from the Christian religion, the Christian faith, because they were not really Christians on the inside. But once a child always a child.

now to throw the cat amongst the pigeons ;

keep in mind I am not saying this is my own view , what I am now doing is going over to stand on the ground holdon is on and ask him , seeing as he is so keen in making effectual calling depend on certain conditions performed by the sinner , but he is not at all keen in seeing the same conditions placed upon OSAS , I repeat this is not my view , but ,

some will say that OSAS is nonsense because salvation is CONDITIONAL , here is one text that might be used ;

"he who perseveres to the end shall be saved" ......

"And ye shall be hated of all men for My Name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved"
(Matthew 10:22).

now how does holdon handle conditionalism over his osas dogma ?

 

[holdon]

"And ye shall be hated of all men for My Name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved"
(Matthew 10:22).

now how does holdon handle conditionalism over his osas dogma ?

Saved doesn't always mean the saving of the soul. Simple isn't it? Hint: see Mt 10:28.

 

[cygnusx1]

Saved doesn't always mean the saving of the soul. Simple isn't it? Hint: see Mt 10:28.

seems like a sidestep , anyway the context is persevering till the end , indicating salvation in total.

 

[Ormly]

Then you're reading it wrong. You have no proof that these were born again Christians. The fruit proves the tree.

Paul saw the fruit and warned them against losing it.

Not only that, Paul's writings were only ever written to Christians. C'mon, Holden. . . . coffee's on.

 

[cygnusx1]

Paul saw the fruit and warned them against losing it.

Not only that, Paul's writings were only ever written to Christians. C'mon, Holden. . . . coffee's on.

many are considered Christians who have never been saved , if you can still go to hell after Christ atoned for your sin what becomes of the atonement ?

if you can still go to hell even after you have been aquitted and justified , what becomes of your justification .......

man the more i look at this opinion the more flimsy and inconsequential salvation appears.

 

[Ormly]

many are considered Christians who have never been saved , if you can still go to hell after Christ atoned for your sin what becomes of the atonement ?

Sortta wasted, isn't it? I agree that it is.

if you can still go to hell even after you have been aquitted and justified , what becomes of your justification .......

Ditto!

man the more i look at this opinion the more flimsy and inconsequential salvation appears.

And the more shallow yours becomes when the message of the cross is understood.

 

[cygnusx1]

Sortta wasted, isn't it? I agree that it is.

Ditto!



And the more shallow yours becomes when the message of the cross is understood.

we certainly view redemption very differently......... or should i say probation!

yes , that about wrapps it up , salvation verses probation.

 

[Ormly]

we certainly view redemption very differently......... or should i say probation!

Say it anyway you like. I know what it means to me, per Hebrews 6:4.

 

[cygnusx1]

Say it anyway you like. I know what it means to me, per Hebrews 6:4.

sure ya do , and you admit you have no way of knowing if you are saved ......... because it depends on you. what is your track record like for absolute obedience .......... since birth.

 

[Ormly]

sure ya do , and you admit you have no way of knowing if you are saved ......... because it depends on you. what is your track record like for absolute obedience .......... since birth.

I admit nothing you propose. To the contrary. I do know. It is called a "Spirit bearing witness", that I m saved. However, just being saved is not the issue as you want to make it be. There more, much more you fail to see and can't.
I am child of God in the process of becoming a son a son of God. I have everything to do with my progress in that. It is called, "Obedience". What we call the "end" when being saved, no, "born again, God calls the "beginning".

By your reasoning, that can't be denied, one can live like hell and still be saved. That's totaly irrational, damningly so.

"Ought" means "can". However, you don't believe you can or even have to. Therefore the "ought" to do anything is pointless . . . to you.

 

[cygnusx1]

I admit nothing you propose. To the contrary. I do know. It is called a "Spirit bearing witness", that I m saved. However, just being saved is not the issue as you want to make it be. There more, much more you fail to see and can't.
I am child of God in the process of becoming a son a son of God. I have everything to do with my progress in that. It is called, "Obedience". What we call the "end" when being saved, no, "born again, God calls the "beginning".

By your reasoning, that can't be denied, one can live like hell and still be saved. That's totaly irrational, damningly so.

"Ought" means "can". However, you don't believe you can or even have to. Therefore the "ought" to do anything is pointless . . . to you.

your a funny guy I think nothing of the sort , it just shows your lack of understanding of the Reformed view of perseverance of the saints as opposed to the glib OSAS dogma ............ yes I know you wish to say thay are the same thing , but they are not.

I assert without reservation , as do all mature Calvinists that without Holiness no-one shall see the Lord , something that simply doesn't fit that well with a simplistic OSAS Baptist view.


and you say your in the process of being a son of God ........ well haven't you been born again ?

man ya got some wierd ideas bro...

gotta dash work beckons , .

 

[Ormly]

perseverance of the saints dogma = OSAS dogma ............ Deal with that also.